What is the difference between magic and miracle?

[OnceConvinced]

I am presuming that god and the devil are real. I am presuming here that miracles and magic are real. They are supernatural events of some kind. They are not tricks done by shysters. They are not freak occurences as a result of luck or being in the right place at the right time.

It seems some Christians get a little offended when you use the term "magic" for deeds done by god. They seem to want to use the term "miracle". But really, what is the difference? Both appear to be a supernatural event that either involves something being generated from nothing or something changing as a result.

The only difference I can get is that a "miracle" is a supernatural event that is caused by god, while "magic" is a supernatural event caused by Satan. But really, what is the difference? How is a "miracle" different to "magic"?

[atheist buddy]

I am presuming that god and the devil are real. I am presuming here that miracles and magic are real. They are supernatural events of some kind. They are not tricks done by shysters. They are not freak occurences as a result of luck or being in the right place at the right time.

It seems some Christians get a little offended when you use the term "magic" for deeds done by god. They seem to want to use the term "miracle". But really, what is the difference? Both appear to be a supernatural event that either involves something being generated from nothing or something changing as a result.

The only difference I can get is that a "miracle" is a supernatural event that is caused by god, while "magic" is a supernatural event caused by Satan. But really, what is the difference? How is a "miracle" different to "magic"?

C. S. Lewis grapples with these sorts of questions in his book Miracles, so if you want a really competent treatment of this issue, I refer you to him.

The short answer, however, is that miracles have a different atmosphere than magical acts. Miracles (in the NT sense) are supposed to do on a small scale and in a short period of time what God is already doing on a large scale over long periods of time - or else to foreshadow something He will do. So, for example, Circe turning Odysseus' crew into swine qualifies as "magic" because it seems so... out of place.

Right, as opposed to raining frogs which is totally not out of place... lol

The truth is that if you thought a voodoo witch doctor transformed water into wine, you'd call it magic. If you believe Jesus did it, you call it a miracle.

It's all just make believe. Anybody in the 21st century who believes any of it to be true should be ashamed of himself.

[bjs]

Please use these basic English skills you refer to and understand that I was talking about my perception of how people use the words, not discussing dictionary definitions.

Since we are discussing the meaning of words, perhaps it would be wiser to use the dictionary definition, or at least specify that you mean something other than the traditional definition when you use the word.

Next, don't forget your basic English skills to then read my example of a rabbit out of a hat compared to fish and loaves pulled from a sack.

Would you care to explain why you disagree with my perception of the uses of these words (assuming you do)?

Why is a rabbit out of a hat magic, but loaves and fishes from a sack a miracle? If you saw a magician pull loaves and fishes from a hat, would you automatically call it a miracle?

The rabbit out of a hat is not magic. It is an illusion, as those who can pull a rabbit out of a hat would be quick to tell you.

Comparing the modern idea of pulling a rabbit out of a hat to the biblical account of a miraculous feeding would be like comparing rollerblading to calculus. The claims, setting, and meaning are fundamentally different. If one believes the biblical account or not does not change the meaning of the word magic or miracle.

[bjs]

Does it make any sense to speak of an occurrence surpassing powers? Or is that just gibberish?

Since we are often speak of such occurrences the discussion must make sense. This thread alone is sufficient evidence that it is not gibberish.

Perhaps, since you think this is cut and dried, you can explain the difference in your own words. What is magic? What is miracle? What is the difference?

Fair enough. The difference is the source. A miracle is supernatural Being affecting the physical world. Magic is a physical being affecting the physical world by non-physical means.

If anyone believes that either of these is or is not possible has nothing to do with their definition. These are words in the English language. The meaning of the word magic does not change if a person believes magic is possible or not.

[OnceConvinced]

The rabbit out of a hat is not magic. It is an illusion, as those who can pull a rabbit out of a hat would be quick to tell you.

Comparing the modern idea of pulling a rabbit out of a hat to the biblical account of a miraculous feeding would be like comparing rollerblading to calculus. The claims, setting, and meaning are fundamentally different. If one believes the biblical account or not does not change the meaning of the word magic or miracle.

So what about the scenario that someone else posted:

A voodoo witchdoctor turns water in to wine
Jesus turns water into wine.

Would they both be considered a miracle? Would one be magic? If so why one and not the other? Or if one is simply a party trick, why is the other one not?

[1213]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

I have understood that many think that life is a miracle. Is life then also magic? I think miracle is just something unexpected or unlikely and depends on much of personal expectations. Magic is use of paranormal methods to manipulate natural forces.

[atheist buddy]

Does it make any sense to speak of an occurrence surpassing powers? Or is that just gibberish?

Since we are often speak of such occurrences the discussion must make sense. This thread alone is sufficient evidence that it is not gibberish.

Nope. It's gibberish. The fact that I am tellign you it's gibberish and you don't agree, doesn't automatically mean it's not gibberish.

People disagreeing on whether something is or isn't gibberish, doesn't make it not gibberish.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 23 by bjs]

magic (noun) the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces

Magic is a superclass of miracle.
All miracles are magic, not all magic is miraculous.

[Zzyzx]

.

A miracle is supernatural Being affecting the physical world.

Correction: a "miracle" is an event or action CLAIMED / believed / thought by some people to be caused by a supernatural being. There is no assurance that any such "being" has been involved (or that the claim / belief / opinion is anything more than imagination).

Not all theists / supernaturalists agree that any particular "magic / miracle" is due to supernatural involvement.

Magic is a physical being affecting the physical world by non-physical means.

Definition of magic:

1. the art of producing illusions, as by sleight of hand.
2. the practice of using various techniques, as incantation, to exert control over the supernatural or the forces of nature.
3. a result of such practice.
4. power or influence exerted through this practice.
5. any extraordinary influence or power:
6. (adj.)done by or employed in magic:
7. mysteriously enchanting, skillful, or effective.

Note: much of "magic" (secular or theistic) appears to be ILLUSION (defined as: something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality; or the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.

[OnceConvinced]

L[Replying to post 25 by 1213]

Life as natural explanations for it. If you are talking about origins of life, then I personally see no difference between magic and miracle. Its just that one word sounds a lot nicer and makes it sound as though there's some kind of benevolent all-knowing force behind it. On the other hand with "magic" it's hard to imagine any benevolent force behind it. The two terms seem to invoke different feelings.

I believe to term something as a miracle or magic means it has to be something that defies natural explanation. Anything that happens regularly (eg conception of a child which happens thousands of times a day) cannot be considered a miracle or magic. That is really dumbing down those terms.

I'm not surprised when Christians screw up their faces when the term "magic" is used instead of "miracle". Christians seem to think that for something to be true it should be beautiful and meaninful. It's why Christian creationist documentaries tend to focus on what's beautiful and wonderous, while avoiding the horrors of nature. When people talk about evolution, it just seems too awful for them so they reject it. They want everything to be lovely and wonderful and life isn't always lovely and wonderful.

[Danmark]

Right, as opposed to raining frogs which is totally not out of place... lol

The truth is that if you thought a voodoo witch doctor transformed water into wine, you'd call it magic. If you believe Jesus did it, you call it a miracle.

It's all just make believe. Anybody in the 21st century who believes any of it to be true should be ashamed of himself.

Moderator Comment
Some might consider this a close call, but telling someone he should be "ashamed" of his religious belief is uncivil at least. You have every right to point out inconsistency and call a belief 'nonsense,' but shaming someone is personal.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.