Being Born Again Spiritually.

[hiramabbi2]

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

[scorpia]

No inconvenience. at least not to me. I don't know about the others in this forum, but I love a good religious debate. S'fine.

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

I believe IF anybody is taking 1Corin. 15:46-47 out of context , there is other than but yourself. The specific cited text do not need further explanation, so don’t pass your own doings unto me.

The entire chapter is not in contention here (which I agree in a way) but only the specific verses which you failed to understand. It only requires plain reading and not your private interpretation. Here, read it again and pond on it more - as it is plainly written in layman's term for your understanding. .

1 CORINTHIANS 15 :45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Why do you think the term “BORN AGAIN” is used, before, you enter the kingdom of heaven, according to the Scripture? The answer is simple, you’re just a NATURAL LIVING SOUL to begin with.

Bah, if I'm posting out of context, then how come I am the one stressing more than the 2 verses (45-46) that you keep repeating? The context of 1 Corinthians 15:45-46 begins at v. 35. Paul is talking about our body at the resurrection. He explains that we will have a different body than the one we currently have - one that is spiritual, not natural; heavenly, not earthly; imperishable, not perishable.

Now we OBVIOUSLY do NOT have this body now, as born again Christians do we? We do NOT have the same body Christ has now, subsequent to His resurrection. These verses explain our RESURRECTION BODY. Yet, you apply these verses to our born again nature. That is clearly out of context.

The breath of life given to Adam was not the spirit of God. It is the life giving "breath" because in him (Christ) is life. It is NOT what we received upon being born again spiritually.

I never said it was the Spirit of God! I said it was his human spirit/soul. That spirit given to Adam was perfectly good, in God's image. Adam's sin and moral independence ruined that though. Adam's spirit and image went from good to bad because it no longer relied on God. This fallen spirit and image was then passed down to all of us. It takes the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ to make us righteous again. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within our fallen spirit and guide us in our obedience.

I'm curious hiramabbi...you believe that you are "born again" correct? But do you still sin? Or have you lived an absolutely perfect life since becoming born again? IF the only spirit that dwells within you is the Holy Spirit, then surely you must be perfect! However, if you are humble enough to admit your sins, there must be something that drives you to sin! That is your human spirit, often called the "carnal mind" or sinful nature. That spirit is the remnants of the "old self" passed down since Adam to all human beings.

ACTS 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Again, why do you think the term used is “Born Again” in spirit of God if you had it to begin with? Why do think Jesus needs to send the Spirit of Truth if you already have the Spirit of God to begin with? How about those evil spirits that roams around waiting for their next victim?

Acts 2:17 is fine. Jesus Christ will pour out the Holy Spirit upon all people (who accept Him of course).
Again, I never said we are born with the Holy Spirit. Where did I say that?

Another proof of the soul & spirit is a separate thing from each other.

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of soul AND spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Clearly, the text is speaking of two subjects here, the soul and the spirit. There’s just no way getting around it, sorry.

Keep in mind the translations of the KJV. Soul (psuche) can be interpreted as simple as "human being" and spirit (pneuma) is our rational mind, our "self" or "I." I believe that pneuma is often called "soul" as well because this is what distinguishes us as human beings with animals. You know when people ask "Do animals have a soul?" we make the distinction between the psuche and pneuma. It is critical that we're on the same page before discussion that any further.
"soul" can be interpreted as a living being (animal or human) or as a complete human being (body and spirit together).
"spirit" is usually interpreted as "mind," "consciousness," "self," or "I." It is that rational part of our being that contains our moral faculties.

In respect to Hebrews 4:12 - it displays the vivid imagery where the Word of God permeates into our total being (soul), down to the innermost depths (spirit). Our spirit is where our thoughts and attitudes lie. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within our spirit, thus changing our thoughts and attitudes. Upon death, He will change our body as well - see 1 Corinthians 15!

I believe this is quite an elaborate eisegesis and twisting of Scripture. I completely disagree that the 7th Day of Creation in Genesis is to be interpreted as prophetic. God IS resting in the sense that He has finished His creation. God the Creator has not created anything since he created Adam and Eve. The work God does today is NOT creation, but rather redemption and reconciliation.

Perhaps, you should not have missed reading John 14:1-3 and Isaiah 65:17 before, and only to find out now that it contradicts your religious faith.

Even to this date, the Scriptures document us that Jesus and the Invisible Father are preparing a place for us to live in the future.

Sure, but this place (the Kingdom of God) already exists. It isn't being created, it already has been, before time (predestination)! Everything that needed to be created was created prior to the 7th day. The Kingdom of God however will become the new heavens and earth. His Kingdom already exists, it just hasn't been manifested to us. From our finite perspective, it will look as if it was created. However the Kingdom of God has always existed.

And IF what you’re saying is true. Then, please explain to our readers why basically the Book of Revelation is written in past tense? Did all those prophesies fulfilled yet?

Because John is writing about his visions - what he saw. He plainly states this is prophesy. Where does Moses do such a thing in Genesis, specifically when he tells us about the 7th day?

See, you can NOT have it both ways just to cover up your inability to defend your position, Scripturally. Again, your rationale is just based on your flawed assumptions of your religious doctrines.

It's not really my "inability to defend my position," as you can see I have no problem doing that. My problem is making sure I get my point across clearly. There have been many times you've just misunderstood me; more often than not though, it seems it is because you have drawn your own inferences off of what I've said, rather than just letting my words speak for themselves. The most recent example is that nowhere had I said that we're born with the Holy Spirit. I've noticed you've got a bad habit of drawing up non sequiturs. I'll continue to try to clarify and elaborate when needed.

On the contrary, perhaps, your preconceived notion is blurring your reading comprehension (no offence intended). I have shown you how to reconcile both chapters in chronological order of events that are in contextual harmony together. Yet, you seem to be slow understanding my position, somehow.

None taken, but let me say this...I have thought a great deal about what you have said on this...if you knew me you'd know that I really don't approach these topics with close-minded presuppositions. I have examined what you've said, and I just find some irreconcilable differences between your eisegesis and Scripture. It doesn't help your case when you defend your views with out-of-context Scripture (1 Cor 15) and place all your bets on the KJV translation.

Again, I have provided you with my reconciliation of the text that are in harmony together.

Not like you though, I would not expect my opponent to provide me the verse that actually says so, word for word or VERBATIM which seems to be what you're looking for, is that right?

I kind of expect this kind of tactics only from people who could no longer defend their shaky religious stand. It's seems to me that your foundation is atmost giving up?

I didn't take offense to your subtle insults above, so I'll assume your attempt at humility there be carried over here too. It's not much of an accomplishment to remark that you've convinced yourself that your eisegesis is "in harmony" with Scripture. The key is convincing others. I tell ya now, if I find irreconcible differences between my beliefs and Scripture, I will humbly repent and adapt accordingly. I'm not a mindless zealot hellbent on proclaiming "my interpretation of the Bible is better than yours." No, I'm a firm believer of "test all things, hold on to the good." But I feel I have a solid understanding on the topic we've been discussing and your eisegesis is unconvincing. I believe I've raised fair objections to your beliefs and your responses have fallen short of what I'd expect if I was to be swayed to your side.

As I have indicated above, our soul is different from the pouring of the spirit of God when we are born again. For the nth, why do you think the term is called “BORN AGAIN” in spirit? Even our Christian high school teens understand this concept, don't you think so?

Do you have any problem understanding the usage of the word “AND”? How about the usage of the definite article “THE”? Please let me know.

ISAIAH 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for “the” spirit should fail before me, AND “the” souls” which I have made.

Have ye not heard of the spirits that is of the devil? Do you want scripture for that?

I'll remind you again, if you're ever trying to convince someone of something, do you think insults are the way to go?

It now becomes apparent that your disagreement with me is just your lack of spiritual understanding of the Scripture, fortunately.

Genesis 3:15 is a prophesy of the EMNITY between the seed of the serpent and the woman and is considered as a CURSED!!! While the coming of Christ speaks of the opening of the gates to his enemies, the above cited text speaks of nothing but emnities.

No enmity between Christ and Satan there? Good and Evil? Christ was "born of a woman" was He not?

You should start spending more time reading the Bible rather than listening to other's doctrinal assumption of your forefathers.

Who are my "forefathers?"

The first prophecy of the coming of Christ is documented in Genesis 22:16-18, because of Abraham faith and obedience --Therefore, since God so loved the world he promised to send forth his only begotten Son as a sacrifice, instead of Isaac, Abraham son -- ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WOULD BE BLESSED, accordingly.

Well, if you don't see the Messianic prophesy in Genesis 3:15, not much I can do.

t was also Jesus Christ himself who revealed and proclaimed this TRUTH about Cain in the NT, in order to cast down other's wild imagination like yours. For you additional learning, please READ the text below.(insertion is mine for clarity)

JOHN 8 44 Ye are of your father (Cain) the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

IF you don’t believe Jesus made that assertion then please show our readers where we can find in the Scripture that Satan or any Devil was accused of being a murderer from the beginning and lied about it?

Furthermore, nowhere in the scripture you’ll find Cain was part of the genealogy of Adam’s generation IN THE DAY they were created in the likeness of God spiritually.

Forgive me hiramabbi...John 8:44 does not have Cain in there anywhere (even in the KJV). Simply because Cain was a murderer does not mean he was the devil. Again, this is a non sequitur. It is a serious fallacy and certainly should not be used to justify your eisegesis of Scripture.

Anyways, Satan's lie to Eve in the garden caused them to sin. Satan's lie is quite ironic: Genesis 3:4 - "You will not surely die," Sin is the wages of death. Satan knew that if they sinned, they would die. Therefore Satan is a murderer and a liar. Furthermore,

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Are you going to tell me Satan does not have any hatred towards God? The fall of the angels occured before mankind. Satan has been a sinner - a murderer and a liar - since the beginning.

The difference between you and I is that I provide Scripture whenever I disagree with your flawed understanding of the Bible. You, on the other hand, will only provide private interpretation or opinion which only based on your religious view.

If you want me to expand on anything with Scripture, I will. In most cases, I assume, since you openly brag about your scriptural knowledge, that if I mention something, like predestination or "sinful nature" for example, you know what I'm talking about. I've often been criticized on other forums of making posts that are too long and redundant. I'm working on that by getting my ideas across more effectively and efficiently.

[hiramabbi2]

Bah, if I'm posting out of context, then how come I am the one stressing more than the 2 verses (45-46) that you keep repeating? The context of 1 Corinthians 15:45-46 begins at v. 35. Paul is talking about our body at the resurrection. He explains that we will have a different body than the one we currently have - one that is spiritual, not natural; heavenly, not earthly; imperishable, not perishable.

Now we OBVIOUSLY do NOT have this body now, as born again Christians do we? We do NOT have the same body Christ has now, subsequent to His resurrection. These verses explain our RESURRECTION BODY. Yet, you apply these verses to our born again nature. That is clearly out of context.

As I have said before, your line of argument (“resurrection body”) is not even the issue here, but, the actual timing of Adam becoming an image and likeness of God. And that is, after Adam had already committed their first sin and Cain had already killed his brother Abel (Gen. 5:1-3; 1:26-27).

Of course, the difference is your failure to support your traditional assumption, proving Adam’s creation in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26 -27; 5:1-3) was the same event as the Making of Adam from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:4). So far, you failed miserably in both areas, sorry

The breath of life given to Adam was not the spirit of God. It is the life giving "breath" because in him (Christ) is life. It is NOT what we received upon being born again spiritually.

I never said it was the Spirit of God! I said it was his human spirit/soul. That spirit given to Adam was perfectly good, in God's image. Adam's sin and moral independence ruined that though. Adam's spirit and image went from good to bad because it no longer relied on God. This fallen spirit and image was then passed down to all of us. It takes the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ to make us righteous again. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within our fallen spirit and guide us in our obedience.

Actually, that was based upon your own implication. See your previous quote below….

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:33 pm My contention is that when God breathed life into Adam, He gave Adam his spirit/soul.

We all have a spirit. However our spirit is naturally inclined to do evil because of Adam's sin to sever his relationship with God.

I guess it would be more convenient to do your spinning now rather than proving your contrasting view with Scripture, right? Are you now changing your view?

I'm curious hiramabbi...you believe that you are "born again" correct? But do you still sin? Or have you lived an absolutely perfect life since becoming born again? IF the only spirit that dwells within you is the Holy Spirit, then surely you must be perfect! However, if you are humble enough to admit your sins, there must be something that drives you to sin! That is your human spirit, often called the "carnal mind" or sinful nature. That spirit is the remnants of the "old self" passed down since Adam to all human beings.

Not like other Christians of today, Adam did not claim anywhere in the Scripture that he was created in the image and likeness of God, did he? God made it happened as documented in the Scripture.

Therefore, that’s the biggest difference in the line of argument that you wanted to have for fallacy -- which is only based on hearsay and third party speculation – not Scriptural.

Nowhere in the Scripture you’ll find that Adam committed another sin AFTER THE DAY he and his generations were created in likeness of God (Gen. 5:1-3). Can you provide one? I don’t think so.

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of soul AND spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Clearly, the text is speaking of two subjects here, the soul and the spirit. There’s just no way getting around it, sorry.

Keep in mind the translations of the KJV. Soul (psuche) can be interpreted as simple as "human being" and spirit (pneuma) is our rational mind, our "self" or "I." I believe that pneuma is often called "soul" as well because this is what distinguishes us as human beings with animals. You know when people ask "Do animals have a soul?" we make the distinction between the psuche and pneuma. It is critical that we're on the same page before discussion that any further.
"soul" can be interpreted as a living being (animal or human) or as a complete human being (body and spirit together).
"spirit" is usually interpreted as "mind," "consciousness," "self," or "I." It is that rational part of our being that contains our moral faculties.

Now, you’re starting to make a little sense to us. I am glad you are now in agreement with me as far as the separtion of soul and spirit is concerned. Did I hear you correctly?

In respect to Hebrews 4:12 - it displays the vivid imagery where the Word of God permeates into our total being (soul), down to the innermost depths (spirit). Our spirit is where our thoughts and attitudes lie.

Wrong again my friend, spirit is the “discerner” of thought or intent of the heart – to know what’s good or bad.

Now that you know about the nature of a spirit which is the DISCERNER, of thought and intent of the heart --based upon your doctrinal faith, do you still believe Adam was FORMED in the image and likeness of God with the knowledge of good or evil?

Why do you think Adam became like them (having the knowledge of good and evil Gen.3:22) only after he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge according to the Lord, contradicting your stand?

See how distorted your religious views are, my friend?

Perhaps, you should not have missed reading John 14:1-3 and Isaiah 65:17 before, and only to find out now that it contradicts your religious faith.

Even to this date, the Scriptures document us that Jesus and the Invisible Father are preparing a place for us to live in the future.

Sure, but this place (the Kingdom of God) already exists. It isn't being created, it already has been, before time (predestination)! Everything that needed to be created was created prior to the 7th day.

Let’s just clarify your contrasting view first, since, there could be only one former President Bill Clinton in the land of U.S, do you agree?

Isn’t it, you took the stand that “One Day” of God in the Book of Genesis 1 is equivalent to our 24 hours/day earth time?

And IF what you’re saying is true. Then, please explain to our readers why basically the Book of Revelation is written in past tense? Did all those prophesies fulfilled yet?

Because John is writing about his visions - what he saw. He plainly states this is prophesy. Where does Moses do such a thing in Genesis, specifically when he tells us about the 7th day?

Really? Then please explain to our audience the prophecy of Gen. 1:30 (every beast would eat every green herb as meat) and show us where the lion eats Straw as the ox (Isaiah 11:7).

See, you can NOT have it both ways just to cover up your inability to defend your position, Scripturally. Again, your rationale is just based on your flawed assumptions of your religious doctrines.

It's not really my "inability to defend my position," as you can see I have no problem doing that. My problem is making sure I get my point across clearly.

Got you! Finally, you admitted that it is only your own words or interpretation you are using to defend your position against the Scripture. I was right from the beginning, so, again what’s your objection here?

There have been many times you've just misunderstood me; more often than not though, it seems it is because you have drawn your own inferences off of what I've said, rather than just letting my words speak for themselves. The most recent example is that nowhere had I said that we're born with the Holy Spirit. I've noticed you've got a bad habit of drawing up non sequiturs. I'll continue to try to clarify and elaborate when needed.

Could you please show me where I interfere with what you said? All I know is that I have been citing you the Biblical proof text that directly refutes your private interpretation. Would that be the case?

Again, don’t pass the blame of your inability to defend your position with Scripture on me. As I have said you can NOT use the Scripture and pervert it to suit your assumption.

Genesis 3:15 is a prophesy of the EMNITY between the seed of the serpent and the woman and is considered as a CURSED!!!
While the coming of Christ speaks of the opening of the gates to his enemies, the above cited text speaks of nothing but emnities.

No enmity between Christ and Satan there? Good and Evil? Christ was "born of a woman" was He not?

The text is very clear – it was BETWEEN the Seed of the Serpent and the Seed of the woman Eve. Jesus Christ was born of the woman Virgin Mary.

The first prophecy of the coming of Christ is documented in Genesis 22:16-18, because of Abraham faith and obedience --Therefore, since God so loved the world he promised to send forth his only begotten Son as a sacrifice, instead of Isaac, Abraham son -- ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WOULD BE BLESSED, accordingly.

Well, if you don't see the Messianic prophesy in Genesis 3:15, not much I can do.

I must admit, it has been time immemorial since your forefather has been promulgating this doctrinal invention and wild imagination. However, it’s time for others to know the truth.

JOHN 8 44 Ye are of your father (Cain) the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

IF you don’t believe Jesus made that assertion then please show our readers where we can find in the Scripture that Satan or any Devil was accused of being a murderer from the beginning and lied about it?

Furthermore, nowhere in the scripture you’ll find Cain was part of the genealogy of Adam’s generation IN THE DAY they were created in the likeness of God spiritually.

Forgive me hiramabbi...John 8:44 does not have Cain in there anywhere (even in the KJV). Simply because Cain was a murderer does not mean he was the devil. Again, this is a non sequitur. It is a serious fallacy and certainly should not be used to justify your eisegesis of Scripture.

Then, why don’t you answer my simple request/question – show our readers where we can find Satan being documented as a MURDERER (literally) from the beginning and LIED about it?

What you also failed to comprehend (excuse me) is the fact that the entire context speaks of Jesus as a Man, being sought to be killed by the Jews, who claimed that their father was Abraham (a man), only to be rebuked by Jesus saying that it’s not the WORK of their “father” Abraham (a man) but that of the devil (simile), the father of lies - who is no other than Cain.

Perhaps, you still could not believe that Cain was a MURDERER from the beginning, the first human to lie to our Lord, would that be a fair assessment?

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Even your cited text 1John 3:15 above speaks of Cain in complete context before you apply your own interpretation, are they not?

And the rest of your rationale is purely speculations, text, taken out of context, in vain attempt to support your traditional religious fables.

The difference between you and I is that I provide Scripture whenever I disagree with your flawed understanding of the Bible. You, on the other hand, will only provide private interpretation or opinion which only based on your religious view.

If you want me to expand on anything with Scripture, I will. In most cases, I assume, since you openly brag about your scriptural knowledge, that if I mention something, like predestination or "sinful nature" for example, you know what I'm talking about. I've often been criticized on other forums of making posts that are too long and redundant. I'm working on that by getting my ideas across more effectively and efficiently.

You mean expanding our discussion to something more off the topic or contention? What are talking about? You been notorious doing this since the beginning, were you not?

The fact remains to date, like most young earthers, you cannot use Scripture to support your opinions. You can only use your interpretational methods which don't agree with Scripture nor History. You only base your "interpretation" on your own religion's views.


God Bless

[scorpia]

Esoteric_Illuminati wrote:
I'm curious hiramabbi...you believe that you are "born again" correct? But do you still sin? Or have you lived an absolutely perfect life since becoming born again? IF the only spirit that dwells within you is the Holy Spirit, then surely you must be perfect! However, if you are humble enough to admit your sins, there must be something that drives you to sin! That is your human spirit, often called the "carnal mind" or sinful nature. That spirit is the remnants of the "old self" passed down since Adam to all human beings.


Not like other Christians of today, Adam did not claim anywhere in the Scripture that he was created in the image and likeness of God, did he? God made it happened as documented in the Scripture.

Therefore, that’s the biggest difference in the line of argument that you wanted to have for fallacy -- which is only based on hearsay and third party speculation – not Scriptural.

Nowhere in the Scripture you’ll find that Adam committed another sin AFTER THE DAY he and his generations were created in likeness of God (Gen. 5:1-3). Can you provide one? I don’t think so.

Are you saying that since you were 'born again', you don't sin?

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

As I have said before, your line of argument (“resurrection body”) is not even the issue here, but, the actual timing of Adam becoming an image and likeness of God. And that is, after Adam had already committed their first sin and Cain had already killed his brother Abel (Gen. 5:1-3; 1:26-27).

YES IT IS. You are citing 1 Corithians 15:45-46 to support your argument. I've established that you are doing so out-of-context! 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 is talking about the Resurrection Body. That becomes the issue when you quote that Scripture.

If you're having trouble understanding the archaic language of the KJV, then perhaps you should check into other translations to see if it helps. You can compare translations here: http://bible.gospelcom.net/ and you can compare translations with original Hebrew/Greek here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Of course, the difference is your failure to support your traditional assumption, proving Adam’s creation in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26 -27; 5:1-3) was the same event as the Making of Adam from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:4). So far, you failed miserably in both areas, sorry

What are you talking about? I HAVE defended my argment and answered your questions already. I've argued that Genesis 2 presupposes the chronology of Genesis 1 and that Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the sixth day. You haven't refuted me here. You're basically saying my argument is wrong because it's "traditional."

You've also dodged practically all my questions that challenge your beliefs.

Actually, that was based upon your own implication. See your previous quote below….

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:33 pm My contention is that when God breathed life into Adam, He gave Adam his spirit/soul.

We all have a spirit. However our spirit is naturally inclined to do evil because of Adam's sin to sever his relationship with God.

I guess it would be more convenient to do your spinning now rather than proving your contrasting view with Scripture, right? Are you now changing your view?

*sigh* God gave Adam his (Adam's) spirit. God did not give Adam His (God's) Spirit. I would've figured the context of my statement would have been clear. I'm not spinning anything.

Not like other Christians of today, Adam did not claim anywhere in the Scripture that he was created in the image and likeness of God, did he? God made it happened as documented in the Scripture.

Therefore, that’s the biggest difference in the line of argument that you wanted to have for fallacy -- which is only based on hearsay and third party speculation – not Scriptural.

Nowhere in the Scripture you’ll find that Adam committed another sin AFTER THE DAY he and his generations were created in likeness of God (Gen. 5:1-3). Can you provide one? I don’t think so.

I ask YOU if YOU are born again. Here's your implication now: if we're born again, we won't sin.

Scorpia also asked this, "Are you saying that since you were 'born again', you don't sin?"

Why didn't you answer my question directly?

Furthermore, you are holding a dangerous belief that "Since it's not in Scripture, then I can believe it is true and use this belief to interpret other Scripture." You say since the Bible doesn't explicitly say Adam sinned after original sin, he was "born again" and sinless for the rest of His days. I already said this was a non sequitur.

(Off Topic): I'm aware of an analogous argument used to justify infant baptism. People argue that Scripture doesn't say anything against baptizing infants, therefore infants can be baptized. And these people use this false conclusion to build up their case on infant baptism.

Now, you’re starting to make a little sense to us. I am glad you are now in agreement with me as far as the separtion of soul and spirit is concerned. Did I hear you correctly?

1.) Who's "us"?
2.) The separation of the "soul" and "spirit" depends on how one defines "soul" and "spirit."

Why don't you go ahead and DEFINE "soul" and "spirit" for me.

Wrong again my friend, spirit is the “discerner” of thought or intent of the heart – to know what’s good or bad.

Now that you know about the nature of a spirit which is the DISCERNER, of thought and intent of the heart --based upon your doctrinal faith, do you still believe Adam was FORMED in the image and likeness of God with the knowledge of good or evil?

Why do you think Adam became like them (having the knowledge of good and evil Gen.3:22) only after he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge according to the Lord, contradicting your stand?

No. The Word of God is the "discerner" (judge) of thoughts/intent of the heart. Read Hebrews 4:12 again! Our own spirit is morally insane, therefore it cannot discern our thoughts properly - the Holy Spirit (through God's Word) must guide us.

This is my basic, rough argument for original sin:

1.) The fall of man made Adam and Eve morally independent from God.
2.) Therefore, they no longer contain the perfect, holy and righteous image of God.
3.) Adam’s fallen image was pasted down to his generations.
4.) Therefore human beings have a nature that is morally independent from God.
5.) Therefore we say human beings are born with a sinful nature (flesh).

Definitions/Background:
The idea of the sinful nature (flesh) is that all human beings have a natural inclination toward sin and evil. They are by nature set apart to live independent from God. The theology behind this is that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan promised Eve that eating the fruit would make her like God, “knowing good and evil”; this is today what we’d call morality. Morality (ethics) is the standard or set of rules by which we judge human behaviour. Morality is the process through which we determine that we ought to do good, and ought not to do evil.

Premise 1 & Corollary 2 – Genesis 3
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they officially separated themselves from God’s perfect standard. In other words, they became morally independent from God and His standard. Instead of maintaining a perfect, direct relationship with God, they wanted a part of God, without God Himself attached to it. They got what they wanted. Consequently, human beings do have faculties of moral reasoning, but since these faculties are independent to God’s perfect knowledge of good and evil, they are imperfect, and must be developed and maintained through God’s Word, the Holy Spirit and our faith-based human reason.

Premise 3 – Genesis 5:3
Adam passed on his own (imperfect) image to Seth. This passage is deliberate and significant because it points out a consequence of the fall linked with Adam’s offspring.

Corollary 4 & Conclusion 5 – Genesis 8:21; Psalm 51:3-5; Psalm 58-3; Job 25:4; Ecclesiastes 9:3; John 3:6; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 8:1-17; Romans 5:12; Romans 3:9-12;
The fact that we pass on an imperfect capacity to morally reason is through which we can consider it a “sinful nature,” since all human beings are begotten in this fallen state. As C.S. Lewis explained, man begets man. Therefore all earthly begotten human beings receive the same imperfections as their father. This is also consistent with the principle of causality. For no sinful human being can beget (cause) another human being that is more perfect than he is. For the unrighteous to beget the righteous simply does not make sense.

Sure, but this place (the Kingdom of God) already exists. It isn't being created, it already has been, before time (predestination)! Everything that needed to be created was created prior to the 7th day.

Let’s just clarify your contrasting view first, since, there could be only one former President Bill Clinton in the land of U.S, do you agree?

Isn’t it, you took the stand that “One Day” of God in the Book of Genesis 1 is equivalent to our 24 hours/day earth time?

What does Bill Clinton have to do with the Creation account? Yes, I believe the days of Genesis were 24 hour days (That does not mean I believe in a "Young Earth"). Of course the Kingdom of God is eternal and has existed prior to Creation. Since the Kingdom of God is eternal, it is not created. The new heavens and earth of Revelation is the Kingdom of God manifested to us.

Because John is writing about his visions - what he saw. He plainly states this is prophesy. Where does Moses do such a thing in Genesis, specifically when he tells us about the 7th day?

Really? Then please explain to our audience the prophecy of Gen. 1:30 (every beast would eat every green herb as meat) and show us where the lion eats Straw as the ox (Isaiah 11:7).

Uh huh. Prior to the Flood, all of God's creation (man AND animals) were vegetarians.
Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
Then the Flood:
Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Isaiah 11:7 is prophesy of the way things will be when Christ and His Kingdom reigns on the new heavens and earth. Essentially things will return to the way things were prior to the original sin.

More on man, animals, and vegans here: http://www.bible.com/answers/avegetar.html

See, you can NOT have it both ways just to cover up your inability to defend your position, Scripturally. Again, your rationale is just based on your flawed assumptions of your religious doctrines.

It's not really my "inability to defend my position," as you can see I have no problem doing that. My problem is making sure I get my point across clearly.

Got you! Finally, you admitted that it is only your own words or interpretation you are using to defend your position against the Scripture. I was right from the beginning, so, again what’s your objection here?

LOL yeah you got me all right!
No, it's hard explaining Scripture to someone who has already made his mind up and ignores everything you say. The only thing I can continue to do is show that your beliefs are predicated on non sequiturs.

Could you please show me where I interfere with what you said? All I know is that I have been citing you the Biblical proof text that directly refutes your private interpretation. Would that be the case?

Not "interfere", I said "INFER" - there is a difference. You're drawing false conclusions of MY OWN VIEWS, based on your illogical presuppositions to my beliefs.

Again, don’t pass the blame of your inability to defend your position with Scripture on me. As I have said you can NOT use the Scripture and pervert it to suit your assumption.

Hmm...pot meet kettle?

No enmity between Christ and Satan there? Good and Evil? Christ was "born of a woman" was He not?

The text is very clear – it was BETWEEN the Seed of the Serpent and the Seed of the woman Eve. Jesus Christ was born of the woman Virgin Mary.

So?

I must admit, it has been time immemorial since your forefather has been promulgating this doctrinal invention and wild imagination. However, it’s time for others to know the truth.

I'll ask again since you ignored me last time; it is starting to get on my nerves:

Who are my forefathers?

Then, why don’t you answer my simple request/question – show our readers where we can find Satan being documented as a MURDERER (literally) from the beginning and LIED about it?

I just did. I showed you where Satan LIED to Eve and this LIE led to Adam and Eve's DEATH. That was MURDER. Satan has HATED God ever since the fall of the angels. I gave you Scripture that said HATE = MURDER. What more is there to show? lol

Here's what you're saying:
1.) Satan is a murderer.
2.) Cain was a murderer.
3.) Therefore Cain IS Satan.

Hmm...anyone else thing this is a valid argument?

You still haven't reconciled any of this with Genesis 4:1 that says Cain is Adam's son.

You mean expanding our discussion to something more off the topic or contention? What are talking about? You been notorious doing this since the beginning, were you not?

The fact remains to date, like most young earthers, you cannot use Scripture to support your opinions. You can only use your interpretational methods which don't agree with Scripture nor History. You only base your "interpretation" on your own religion's views.

Slow down there turbo. Who said I was a "young earther"? Why don't you admit the fact you have absolutely NO idea what I believe other than what I've said on original sin and the chronology of Genesis. I haven't made any claims to know what you believe beyond what you've posted here. I could care less, I'm debating a TOPIC, not your entire worldview. So don't you dare do such a thing with me. I welcome intellectually HONEST debate with classy people. So far you've used subtle insults to attack me as well as asinine assumptions of my beliefs beyond anything I've stated here. I DO take offense to that kind of crap.

[otseng]

OK, take a deep breath everyone. I will be clamping down in this thread on any violations of the rules if anyone steps out of line. Any attacks, either direct or indirect, will result in a formal warning via PM. Consider this the only forewarning.

Also, if anyone feels personally attacked, you can either report the post by pressing the button of the offending post or send a moderator a PM.

Alright, carry on, but please be respectful and civil.

[hiramabbi2]

As I have said before, your line of argument (“resurrection body”) is not even the issue here, but, the actual timing of Adam becoming an image and likeness of God. And that is, after Adam had already committed their first sin and Cain had already killed his brother Abel (Gen. 5:1-3; 1:26-27).

YES IT IS. You are citing 1 Corithians 15:45-46 to support your argument. I've established that you are doing so out-of-context! 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 is talking about the Resurrection Body. That becomes the issue when you quote that Scripture. .

Then show our audience where we could find in your cited text 1Corin.15:35-58 that specifically speaks of Adam & Eve being formed in the image and likeness of God at same time which I believe to be the basis of your contention?

Of course, the difference is your failure to support your traditional assumption, proving Adam’s creation in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26 -27; 5:1-3) was the same event as the Making of Adam from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:4). So far, you failed miserably in both areas, sorry

What are you talking about? I HAVE defended my argment and answered your questions already. I've argued that Genesis 2 presupposes the chronology of Genesis 1 and that Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the sixth day. You haven't refuted me here. You're basically saying my argument is wrong because it's "traditional."

On the contrary and the record will show, not only I refuted your assumption about Genesis 1&2 but also provided you with a reconciliation showing the actual chronological order of events that had happened between the two chapter to back up my position.

You, on the other hand, could only come up with your onbjection and assumption providing a cut-and-paste copy of the plain reading of the text chapters, that’s all. Everybody can do that, don’t you think?

You've also dodged practically all my questions that challenge your beliefs.

You mean, you’re off the topic question? I don’t think I have to answer irrelevant issue here, do I? I also believe it is my prerogative to respond to it or not

Therefore, either quit asking off topic questions or waste your time posting irrelevant issue. It’s your choice.

Actually, that was based upon your own implication. See your previous quote below….

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:33 pm My contention is that when God breathed life into Adam, He gave Adam his spirit/soul.

We all have a spirit. However our spirit is naturally inclined to do evil because of Adam's sin to sever his relationship with God.

I guess it would be more convenient to do your spinning now rather than proving your contrasting view with Scripture, right? Are you now changing your view?

*sigh* God gave Adam his (Adam's) spirit. God did not give Adam His (God's) Spirit. I would've figured the context of my statement would have been clear. I'm not spinning anything.

So, what is your final answer, Esoteric? Was Adam given a spirit that is of God to know good or evil when he was formed- Genesis 2:7? YES or NO?

Btw, and if I follow your distorted assumption that the breath of life given by the Lord is already a “spirit” then all the beast of the earth and fowl of the air with nostril have a spirit to know good and evil!? READ…

GENESIS 6:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. v15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of ALL FLESH, wherein is the BREATH of life.

I ask YOU if YOU are born again. Here's your implication now: if we're born again, we won't sin.

Scorpia also asked this, "Are you saying that since you were 'born again', you don't sin?"

Why didn't you answer my question directly?

Why would I? Hiramabbi2, the poster, is NOT the issue here but the narrative of the Scripture that speaks of the creation of Adam & Eve in the image and likeness of God, AT THE SAME TIME.

Don’t you see the forming of Adam from the ground (Gen. 2.7) clearly is a separate event from Genesis 1:26-27 since Eve was not yet formed/made from his ribs at that time. Common sense my friend.

Furthermore, you are holding a dangerous belief that "Since it's not in Scripture, then I can believe it is true and use this belief to interpret other Scripture." You say since the Bible doesn't explicitly say Adam sinned after original sin, he was "born again" and sinless for the rest of His days. I already said this was a non sequitur.

Wrong analogy once again.. What you fail to realize this time in my reasoning is the fact that IN THE DAY Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God (Genesis 5:1-3) they have already committed their first sin or “original sin”.Now, do you have any Scripture to say otherwise?.

Why don't you go ahead and DEFINE "soul" and "spirit" for me.

Here’s how the Bible explain the "Spirit" that is of God and those who are just an natural living soul, just like the first Adam to begin with.

1 CORINTHIANS 2: 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. v13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. v14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually DISCERNED

Wrong again my friend, spirit is the “discerner” of thought or intent of the heart – to know what’s good or bad.

Now that you know about the nature of a spirit which is the DISCERNER, of thought and intent of the heart --based upon your doctrinal faith, do you still believe Adam was FORMED in the image and likeness of God with the knowledge of good or evil?

Why do you think Adam became like them (having the knowledge of good and evil Gen.3:22) only after he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge according to the Lord, contradicting your stand?

No. The Word of God is the "discerner" (judge) of thoughts/intent of the heart. Read Hebrews 4:12 again! Our own spirit is morally insane, therefore it cannot discern our thoughts properly - the Holy Spirit (through God's Word) must guide us.

Perhaps, you mean to say, the Spirit that is of God who reimforce uur conscience by acting as the DISCERNER of thoughts and intent of the heart to know good and evil, would it be the case?

This is my basic, rough argument for original sin:

The “original sin” is not part of the contention at this time yet, as far as I am concerned..

Yes, I believe the days of Genesis were 24 hour days (That does not mean I believe in a "Young Earth").

Really? How do you explain then that our sun and moon were not even created until the 4th Day? Also, please explain where on earth did you get the idea that Genesis 1 is based on our 24 hrs. earth time? Scripture please.

You continue to amaze me, however, about your complete misunderstanding the Scripture that speaks of the 1st. formation of our heaven created only on the 2nd day and our present earth was created only on the 3rd day-- not on Genesis 1:1 as you continue to assume?

Of course the Kingdom of God is eternal and has existed prior to Creation. Since the Kingdom of God is eternal, it is not created. The new heavens and earth of Revelation is the Kingdom of God manifested to us.

The Kingdom of God is not the topic here but the CREATION of New Heaven and New Earth as prophesied in Isaiah 65:17 “For, behold, I CREATE NEW heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”

Therefore, don’t avoid the issue. Again, just like what Jesus said, “in his Father’s house there are many mansion”, now, which new heaven and new earth Jesus is preparing a place for us?

Because John is writing about his visions - what he saw. He plainly states this is prophesy. Where does Moses do such a thing in Genesis, specifically when he tells us about the 7th day?

Really? Then please explain to our audience the prophecy of Gen. 1:30 (every beast would eat every green herb as meat) and show us where the lion eats Straw as the ox (Isaiah 11:7).

Uh huh. Prior to the Flood, all of God's creation (man AND animals) were vegetarians.
Isaiah 11:7 is prophesy of the way things will be when Christ and His Kingdom reigns on the new heavens and earth. Essentially things will return to the way things were prior to the original sin.

Then how could you say the creations in Genesis 1 were Perfect to God’s terminology, when in fact, even in the garden of Eden, the old serpent where there? Is this your own terminology or God?

I'll ask again since you ignored me last time; it is starting to get on my nerves:

Who are my forefathers?

Ok sorry, if you don’t like the term “forefather”, then, how about your ancestors who hold the same belief as yours? Would that be fair now?

Then, why don’t you answer my simple request/question – show our readers where we can find Satan being documented as a MURDERER (literally) from the beginning and LIED about it?

I just did. I showed you where Satan LIED to Eve and this LIE led to Adam and Eve's DEATH. That was MURDER. Satan has HATED God ever since the fall of the angels. I gave you Scripture that said HATE = MURDER. What more is there to show? lol

I believe you’re not following the instruction/question. But let me rephrase the question before I disqualify you for your inability to support your assumption with Scripture.

Again, please provide a Scripture that would directly suggest that satan was a MURDERER from the beginning (Genesis) and lied about it?

Here's what you're saying:

1.) Satan is a murderer.
2.) Cain was a murderer.
3.) Therefore Cain IS Satan.

Hmm...anyone else thing this is a valid argument?

Please correct me if I am over reacting but that’s categorize as a blatant lie and misrepresentation of my position, am I right?

Could somebody please show me where I have stated in our discussion that “Satan was a murderer, therefore, Cain is Satan"according to the assertion of Esetoric?

Again, please Esoteric, and for the nth times, don’t pass your inability to support your flawed understanding of the Scripture to me.

Would you like me to show the verses where Cain murdered Abel, lied about it after our Lord had asked him where his brother was? Please let me know one way or another.

You still haven't reconciled any of this with Genesis 4:1 that says Cain is Adam's son.

Sorry, the verse did not say what you assume it to be, but rather, only documenting us that Adam knew his wife.... and Eve's claim that she had gotten a man from the Lord – not from Adam.

ISAIAH 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things

Perhaps, you need to read where the Lord told Sarai (abraham’s wife) that she would have a baby even of her old age. Compliment by our Lord, was it not?

God Bless

[hiramabbi2]

You mean expanding our discussion to something more off the topic or contention? What are talking about? You been notorious doing this since the beginning, were you not?

The fact remains to date, like most young earthers, you cannot use Scripture to support your opinions. You can only use your interpretational methods which don't agree with Scripture nor History. You only base your "interpretation" on your own religion's views.

Slow down there turbo. Who said I was a "young earther"? Why don't you admit the fact you have absolutely NO idea what I believe other than what I've said on original sin and the chronology of Genesis. I haven't made any claims to know what you believe beyond what you've posted here. I could care less, I'm debating a TOPIC, not your entire worldview. So don't you dare do such a thing with me. I welcome intellectually HONEST debate with classy people. So far you've used subtle insults to attack me as well as asinine assumptions of my beliefs beyond anything I've stated here. I DO take offense to that kind of crap.

Easy now and don't be slick about it Esoteric. I see no reason for you to get offended nor go bending out of shape about the truth.

I did not say that you are a “young earther”, did I? Read my lips Esoteric, I said “LIKE (simile) most young earthers". Got it?

Here is the meaning of "simile" just in case... I cut-and-paste it for your convenience, below.

Main Entry: sim·i·le
Pronunciation: 'si-m&-(")lE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, comparison, from neuter of similis
: a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses) -- compare METAPHOR

Besides, I don’t have to know your faith to expose your contention which is only based upon your flawed understanding of the Scripture, do I? I don't think so.


God Bless

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Forgive me if I wish to avoid the point-by-point replies in an attempt to avoid redundant rhetoric (on both sides). I feel we need to get back to the basics, in order to establish a foundation and thus common ground. I was hoping I could make a good argument without going into too many details, but that doesn’t appear to be the case.

The main topic to this thread is "being born again." I want to specifically address that topic once again in this post. I will address some other indirect topics in my next post.

Now out of this specific topic came the question:
Did the Fall and Cain/Abel take place prior to Genesis 1:27 (man created in God's image)?

hiramabbi2's has argued that not everyone is in the image of God. Only those who are "born again" can boast such a claim. Additionally he has argued that Adam was made from the dust of the earth, therefore he had no spirit. He was a "natural living soul." (Genesis 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45-46). Furthermore, since Adam was a natural living soul when God first created him, he could not be made in God's image.
It follows from this argument that Adam and Eve had not received the image of God until Genesis 2:7; 5:1-3 (cf. Genesis 1:27) AFTER the Fall and Cain/Abel.

To adaquately respond to this argument, we must first answer a few questions. First order of business though is to clearly define these words as they appear in Scripture. I will discuss the words used in the context of Scripture and also provide links to the definitions of these words in the original Hebrew and Greek. This way we can escape the confusion between the translations of the KJV and NIV.

With that said, the first question is: "What are the “image and likeness of God?”

The Hebrew word for image is "tselem”; the word for likeness is “demuth.” They are two different words that are similar, yet have different meanings in the Hebrew. "eikon" is the Greek word for both image and likeness.

Tselem represents a physical or an explicit structure to something and demuth represents the functional and implicit aspect to something. The best way to explain this I think is by an analogy. For instance, between "car" and "automobile". A car has a explicit structure giving it the image of what we call an automobile (i.e. four wheel, internal combustion engine, etc.) Furthermore, a car is in the likeness of an automobile given the fact that it functions as one (i.e. it transports passengers). Keep this difference of tselem/image (structure) and demuth/likeness (function) in mind.

Adam was created in the tselem (image) of God. That means there is some explicit structural resemblance between Adam and God. I believe that that structural similarity we share with God is our body, soul and spirit – a trinity – in the tselem of the Holy Trinity.

Now the question is: "How do we define soul, spirit, and body?"

Defining "spirit":
Genesis 2:7 – God breathed in “neshama” The same word (neshama) is used in Genesis 7:22. Neshama also directly corresponds to the Hebrew word “ruwach.” as seen throughout the OT, but most specifically in Isaiah 57:16. The Greek word for spirit is “pneuma.”

When God breathed “neshama” into Adam we find this was different than all the other animals who also received this breath of life from God. The difference was God had already made Adam a rational being with free will. In Genesis 1:28-30 and Genesis 2:15-20, we see God set man above all Creation before the Fall. Common sense tells us that Adam had to be a rational agent in order to name all the creatures and to have such dominance, as well as conversate with God. Therefore God had given Adam a special spirit (rational mind / consciousness) from the very beginning. I believe this is the significance of the Hebrew word "ruwach." Other living creatures did receive neshama, but this neshama was not ruwach.

Now recall that man was created in God's triune image (structure). Our ruwach is the structural image of the Holy Spirit. Our human spirit is our “discerner of thoughts/attitudes” or “rational mind” – in other words, it is the manifestation of our personality and character. This is the same case for the Holy Spirit's relationship in the Godhead. The spirit/ruwach is the center of our conscience and free will. Our spirit is what sets us apart because it is unlike the animal spirit.
- Scripture: Isaiah 42:5; 57:16; Job 12:10; 32:8; 33:4; Ezekiel 37:5
- Even unbelievers have a spirit: 1 Chronicles 5:26; 2 Chronicles 36:22

Defining soul:
The Hebrew word for soul is “nephesh” The Greek word for soul is “psuche.” The heart is also equated with the soul (nephesh) in Proverbs 23:7. That definition carries over to the Greek word "kardia".

So Scripture essentially tells us that the soul serves at the unifier between the body and spirit. It is the totality/essence/center of our being. The soul is the structural image of the Father. The relationship between our soul and our spirit is like the relationship between the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Finally, the body aka “soma” is the physical/material part of man, made of flesh and blood out of the earth. The body serves as the structural image of God the Son when He became the physical manifestation of the Holy Trinity. Our body is the physical manifestation of our trinity.

We find evidence of this triune image in Scripture at 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 (man's triune nature) and Matthew 28:19 (God's triune nature).
Additionally, we examine Genesis 1:26 where God says, “Let us make man in our image. – The context is the "image of Elohim" (The plurality of God’s nature aka Holy Trinity) which reveals that our image also is plural in nature and can be further understood a trinity.

So, when we speak of man being created in the image of God, we consider God’s image as the Holy Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God created Adam in that triune image, giving him a soul, body, and spirit, which together serve as structural image of God's triune nature. So God did create Adam in His image. However Adam sinned. The significance here is that Adam did NOT lose the (structural) image of God. That image is still intact: Genesis 9:6; 1 Corinthians 11:7; and James 3:9 all prove that. What did happen is that Adam’s spirit (neshama/ruwach/pneuma) – the “discerner of thoughts/actions” or “rational mind” became independent from God. We still have a soul, body and spirit, but they now function improperly together because our spirit is now independent from God.

God created man in His image and made him “upright” ("yashar") as we find in Ecclesiastes 7:29. But obviously man’s thoughts and actions are not always upright! “Upright” in the context of how God created us is synonymous with perfect. God wouldn’t create us perfect and then expect us to think/act any less than perfect (Matthew 5:48 ). So our spirit was made by God to know and understand Him perfectly, without limits, and through this knowledge we would come to worship and obey Him with all our soul.

Since our spirit attempts to seek knowledge independent from God (Knowledge of Good and Evil), our entire essence/being – soul (“nephesh/psuche”) – functions improperly. Our spirit and soul share a necessary relationship in which they are contingent on each other. Before the Fall, God was the center of man's universe and the direct source of all his knowledge. Upon original sin, man desired to gain knowledge apart from God directly. In other words, Adam and Eve desired to become the center of their own universe, henceforth they effectively pushed God out of the picture by their own free will. That fallen independent spirit became a part of Adam’s very soul and nature. Since all of mankind is descendents of Adam (from Noah’s genealogy), we all share Adam’s image. The image of God is intact structurally, but does not function the way God designed it to function. Our spirit naturally attempts to discern our thoughts and attitudes on its own, apart from God. We all have this problem of a sinful nature/flesh ("sarx” in the Greek) (Genesis 8:21; Psalm 51:3-5; Psalm 58-3; Job 25:4; Ecclesiastes 9:3; John 3:6; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 8:1-17; Romans 5:12; Romans 3:9-12;).

The next question follows: "What does it mean to be 'born again'?"

To be “born again” is to reestablish the relationship with God that was lost at original sin. This occurs at the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; cf. John 3:3,5). Sinful nature is still present in our soul for we know that the Holy Spirit is grieved when we sin (Psalm 73:21; Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30) while He dwells within us. Since this is the case, we find that there is a difference between receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit (born again) to dwell within us forever (John 14:16) and actually living according His will (Galatians 5:16-25).

The Holy Spirit is who gives us knowledge through the Word of God (1 Corinthians 2). Notice that by seeking knowledge through the Holy Spirit, we can reestablish the relationship lost by original sin when Adam and Eve sought knowledge apart from God. If we live through Christ in the Holy Spirit, He will direct our thoughts and actions and not by our own fallen spirit, which is naturally inclined to do evil. Martin Luther called this “bondage of will” in which we forsake our flesh’s will to sin and bind our will to the Holy Spirit and obey Christ's Law.

Now hiramabbi2 has used 1 Corinthians 15:45-46 in his argument to try and show that Adam was a “natural living soul” – hiramabbi2 apparently believes this indicates that this means Adam had no spirit at all, therefore was not in the image of God. The original argument hiramabbi made was that “not everyone is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your (sic) born again.” This is not exactly true given what I’ve argued above.

1 Cor 15:45-46 “45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.”

“Living being” is “zao psuche” in the Greek. “psuche” in Greek is “nephesh” in Hebrew, which is the total essence of a person: body + spirit + soul and translated in English as simply “soul” or "heart." So if Adam is a living soul(nephesh/psuche), he was given a spirit (neshama/ruwach/pnema).

Paul contrasts Adam as simply an earthly “living being (soul)” with Jesus who is a heavenly “livegiving spirit” or “zoopoieo pneuma.” In other words, Adam simply had a spirit, but Christ is the heavenly Spirit who gives life! There is quite a difference between our bodies now, and our bodies when they are resurrected and glorified with Christ.

Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 15:49 clearly tells us that we currently bear the likeness/image (“eikon”) of Adam, but we will soon bear the likeness/image of Christ (at the resurrection). NO ONE currently bears the likeness of Christ, since no one else has been resurrected and that is what Paul is telling us in 1 Corinthians 15:35-58. We will be given a new spiritual body at the resurrection, in the likeness of Christ. The resurrection is when our body, spirit and soul come together to function properly again – the way God designed it. On earth, we are not in the likeness of God due to original sin, but rather the likeness of Adam.

Hiramabbi2 (on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:53 pm) has also tried to tie in John 14:16-17 with Genesis 1:26. However, John 14:16-17 is specifically talking about the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. John 7:38-39 tells us this indwelling of the Spirit was not available to those who lived prior to Christ’s resurrection. Therefore hiramabbi2 cannot apply John 14:16-17 to Adam and thus posit that Genesis 1:27 occurs after the Fall.

In that same post, hiramabbi2 says, “In order for one to die Spiritually, one must first be Born Spiritually.” It is misleading to say that we have died spiritually. There is no literal spiritual death due to original sin. As we saw above, our spirit and the image of God (structure – body/spirit/soul) is still intact. What is meant by “spiritual death” is that the likeness (eikon) or functional relationship between God and us is dead so to speak, severed, due to our independence from God. When we are “reborn” spiritually, we reestablish our relationship with God and become dependent on His will and knowledge once again (the bondage of will). With the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we live “in Christ” through faithful obedience and He is “eternal life” and the Spirit will resurrect us in new glorified bodies (Romans 8:11; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 ).

Bottom line here:
Adam was created in the image of God. This image is essentially the structural trinity – body, spirit and soul which bears the image of God as the Holy Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The structural image of God remains in us today, but it does not function properly due to original sin, passed down from Adam to all generations.
Our spirit was created to function in accordance to our direct relationship with God and His knowledge. Adam’s sin separated us all from God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Knowledge thus is to be gained independent and/or indirectly from God. When we are born again, we reestablish our relationship with God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. We still must suffer sin and death here on earth, but if we live and die in Christ, the Holy Spirit will resurrect us to live with Him eternally.

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Was Adam created on the third day?

hiramabbi2 argues that this belief is necessary to "explain why Adam is alone on the beginning of the 6th day." See Genesis 2:19 in KJV.

EI’s objection:
Adam wasn't alone. Genesis 1:24-26 gives a chronological account. Genesis 2 presupposes the chronology of Genesis 1. In Genesis 2:19, the KJV translates the word "yatsar" (formed) in present tense. Other translations, such as the NIV, translate yatsar as "had formed" - the past tense. The past tense is consistent with Genesis 1:24-26, which tells us animals were created BEFORE man. hiramabbi2 and the KJV translation of yatsar create a contradiction between Genesis 1:24-26 and Genesis 2:19. Therefore there is no need to explain why Adam was alone because he wasn't alone. I also noted that nowhere in the chronological Genesis 1 account do we find any animals created AFTER man was created.

Hiramabbi’s problem is that he is trying to reconcile Genesis 1 off of Genesis 2. That is where the contradiction arises. Genesis 2 presupposes Genesis 1. We use Genesis 1 to interpret Genesis 2, not the other way around. This also is how hiramabbi2 argues that the Fall and Cain and Abel came before Genesis 1:27.

Was Cain the seed of Satan(serpent)?

hiramabbi2's argument:
- There was enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent (Genesis 3:15) and Cain was a liar and murderer (Genesis 4:8-9).
- Therefore in John 8:44 Jesus is talking about Cain because he was a liar and murderer.

Additionally, you objected when I asked if you were saying Cain is Satan and told me to show where you said such a thing.
On your Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:54 pm post:

JOHN 8 44 Ye are of your father (Cain) the devil,...

EI's objection:
It's quite simple: Genesis 4:1 - "Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain."
You replied with this:

Sorry, the verse did not say what you assume it to be, but rather, only documenting us that Adam knew his wife.... and Eve's claim that she had gotten a man from the Lord – not from Adam.

Hiramabbi2, you really need to explore outside the KJV. When it says, “Adam knew his wife” in this context of the Hebrew word “yada”, it bluntly means they had sex. Just look at: Genesis 4:17 and 4:25. Genesis 4:25 is blatantly obvious: (KJV) “And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth” - the NIV: “Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,”

I can’t believe you think my "assumption" that Adam begot Cain is out of line. Especially when the same context is used when Adam begets Seth and Cain begets Enoch! That certainly is a much safer “assumption” than you make when you assert Cain is the devil.

And as for that topic: the word “devil” is “diabolos” in the Greek.

Was Jesus tempted by Cain? Matthew 4; Luke 4
All NT Scripture that uses the word “diabolos” is meant in direct reference to THE devil – Satan.

Does the serpent (Satan) have seeds? Absolutely. Scripture calls them “children of the devil”:
1 John 3:9-12 and Acts 13:10. In the same context we can say that Cain was like Elymas. John tells us Cain “belonged (KJV: “was of”) to the evil one.” This is NOT a literal interpretation that implies that people are BEGOTTEN by the serpent (Satan). Just as we are called son’s of God, yet we are NOT begotten sons of God. We are literally adopted (sonship) into God’s family (Romans 8:15) and retain the title “sons of God.” In the same way, unbelievers are adopted by Satan and the world and retain the title “children of the devil.”

Furthermore, you demand I show you Scripture that quotes: "Satan is a murderer from the beginning" outside the FACT that it's common sense that he lied to Eve and that lie led to their deaths. But ironically, the Scripture that says such a thing IS John 8:44 is talking about SATAN - the devil! So there you have it - Scripture saying that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and lied about it. Please, let's not throw common sense out the window.

I could throw the same objection at you – in 1 John 3:11 that says “This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.” Where is that specific phrase in Genesis? Or is it simply understood by common sense?

Hiramabbi2 brings up another objection is that Cain is not in the genealogies of Matthew and Luke. That's not an objection at all since those genealogies are of Jesus’ line and Jesus was a descendent of Seth and not Cain. There is absolutely no reason Matthew or Luke (nor any other writer of Scripture) needed to give Cain's genealogy since Scripture is focused on God's plan of salvation through Christ - throughout the OT even - the chosen ancestry was significant to Scripture, Cain's cursed ancestry was not - although his partial genealogy is given in Genesis 4. Let's not even mention the fact that Cain's descendents were completely wiped out by the Flood - only Noah and his family survived and they were descendents of Seth.

His next objection is what really annoyed me because you were going beyond what I’ve said here and trying to infer what I believe as far as the “young earth” creation account. You made that obvious in your previous posts, although you tried to reconcile that in your last one.

I believe in the Gap of Genesis that occurs between Genesis 1:1-2. It is at this time where I believe the fall of angels occurred. The time that occurred between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 could have been any amount of time for what we know. The fall of the angels effectively destroyed God’s [original] creation and Genesis 1:2 picks up as the literal recreation account that focuses specifically on man, whom God picked to rule on the earth over this new creation.

Hiramabbi2 also asked me to then explain how then this account could be in literal 24-hour days. In the very first day (Genesis 1:3-5) God had created “light” and “darkness” as well as morning and evening. We know from this moment there was already a rotation between light/dark, morning/evening on the first day. Who are you to say this rotation wasn’t 24 hours? Now on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14-19) God forms the sun and the moon to govern this rotation! The rotation was already established, the sun and moon were created to serve as the governors of this rotation. The light and darkness already existed. God effectively placed light under control of the sun. As you see, it isn’t very difficult to reconcile the 24-hour days of Genesis with that apparent contradiction.

I must admit, it has been time immemorial since your forefather has been promulgating this doctrinal invention and wild imagination. However, it’s time for others to know the truth.

Ok sorry, if you don’t like the term “forefather”, then, how about your ancestors who hold the same belief as yours? Would that be fair now?

I will ask this question again:
"WHO is my forefather/ancestor?" Call it what you want hiramabbi2, I just want to know what you mean by that. Who are you talking about?