Body, soul and spirit

[placebofactor]

The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God. Now, that’s a mouthful and covers a great deal of ground. When we die, our bodies are returned to the ground.

Genesis 3:19, For out of it (the ground) were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”

Question, “What happens to a man’s soul, and spirit?” Answer: The saved go to be with the Lord, for those who reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will find themselves in a place called Hades.

The following occurred before Jesus was put to death, and before the church age began. Jesus is speaking to the Jews, the publicans, Pharisees, scribes, and sinners. He spoke of things the Jewish elite and the people believed and understood. The ancient Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead.

Now, Luke 16:22 concerns a beggar named Lazarus who was begging at the gate of an unidentified rich man. Verse 22, “It came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”

What does Luke mean by, “Carried off into Abraham’s bosom?” Matthew 8:11 tells us “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” This may allude to Luke 22:29-30 when Jesus spoke to his disciples at the Last Supper. “I appoint unto you a kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me; that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

As for the rich man, “He lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, with Lazarus in his bosom.” Because he is a Jew, he cries out, “Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.”

We know the man's body of flesh was buried in the ground, so what part of him remained that was able to see, hear, thirst, feel pain, and speak? The part of him that was in hell was his spirit and soul because of his pride, selfishness, and lack of compassion.

What’s going to happen to him? He will stand before the judgment seat of the LORD, but not until after the 1000-year reign of Christ ends. Revelation 20:5, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Verse 12, “And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13, “An they were judged every man according to their works.” From there, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. It’s not physical death, it’s spiritual death.

What about Lazarus? 1 Thessalonians 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” His body will no longer hunger or be covered with sores. Neither will our sickness and disease be with us. No cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor eyesight, heart, lung, kidney or liver diseases. We will possess a perfect body, the body we were intended to have before the fall of Adam and Eve.

1 Corinthians 15:52, “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

[onewithhim]

The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God. Now, that’s a mouthful and covers a great deal of ground. When we die, our bodies are returned to the ground.

Genesis 3:19, For out of it (the ground) were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”

Question, “What happens to a man’s soul, and spirit?” Answer: The saved go to be with the Lord, for those who reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will find themselves in a place called Hades.

The following occurred before Jesus was put to death, and before the church age began. Jesus is speaking to the Jews, the publicans, Pharisees, scribes, and sinners. He spoke of things the Jewish elite and the people believed and understood. The ancient Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead.

Now, Luke 16:22 concerns a beggar named Lazarus who was begging at the gate of an unidentified rich man. Verse 22, “It came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”

What does Luke mean by, “Carried off into Abraham’s bosom?” Matthew 8:11 tells us “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” This may allude to Luke 22:29-30 when Jesus spoke to his disciples at the Last Supper. “I appoint unto you a kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me; that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

As for the rich man, “He lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, with Lazarus in his bosom.” Because he is a Jew, he cries out, “Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.”

We know the man's body of flesh was buried in the ground, so what part of him remained that was able to see, hear, thirst, feel pain, and speak? The part of him that was in hell was his spirit and soul because of his pride, selfishness, and lack of compassion.

What’s going to happen to him? He will stand before the judgment seat of the LORD, but not until after the 1000-year reign of Christ ends. Revelation 20:5, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Verse 12, “And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13, “An they were judged every man according to their works.” From there, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. It’s not physical death, it’s spiritual death.

What about Lazarus? 1 Thessalonians 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” His body will no longer hunger or be covered with sores. Neither will our sickness and disease be with us. No cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor eyesight, heart, lung, kidney or liver diseases. We will possess a perfect body, the body we were intended to have before the fall of Adam and Eve.

Thanks for your well thought out reply, I enjoyed reading it.

1 Corinthians 15:52, “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

I find this interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 (the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) quite fascinating, though I would respectfully offer some additional context.

Historically the concept of the tripartite nature of humans (body, soul, and spirit) has been debated throughout Christian history. While this interpretation presents it as definitive, the Catholic tradition, following Thomas Aquinas, typically views humans as a unity of body and soul, with the spirit being an aspect of the soul rather than a separate component.

Agreed,

The text's interpretation of "Abraham's bosom" aligns with traditional Jewish understanding, though I should point out that this concept evolved significantly during the Second Temple period. The imagery Jesus uses here would have been immediately recognizable to his Jewish audience, drawing from contemporary beliefs about the afterlife.

Again, I agree.

Psychologically what I find particularly compelling is how this parable addresses fundamental human concerns about death, justice, and eternal consequences. The rich man's ability to feel, think, and communicate after death speaks to deep-seated human anxieties about consciousness beyond physical existence.

This parable is unlike the Lord's other parables where spiritual things are represented by similar things borrowed from earthly things. A good example is the parable of the Sower and Reaper. But here in Luke, the spiritual things themselves are represented in a description of the various states of good and bad in this world and the other world. We will always have the poor with us who will die, and in death, leave their miseries behind. The godly poor will be received with joy by the Lord. We also have those who need nothing, living in luxury and unconcerned with the poverty around them. These will also die, but their soul and spirit, as the rich man's soul and spirit, were in a state of torment. I also find it unusual that a name (Lazarus) is given to the poor man, I don't recall that in any of Jesus' other parables.

I often wonder if the poor man Lazarus could be Martha's brother Lazarus whom the Lord raised from the tomb.

The eschatological timeline presented (regarding the thousand-year reign and final judgment) reflects a particular interpretative tradition, though I should note that Catholic theology traditionally takes a different approach to these prophecies. We typically view much of Revelation's imagery as allegorical rather than strictly literal.

Is this because the Catholics do not believe in eternal punishment, therefore no hell? Catholics teach temporary punishment in a place they call Purgatory. Of course, they would examine Luke in a different light. The Jehovah's Witnesses picked up on this same teaching of no hell, and like Catholics, they believe one day everyone will be saved.

What's particularly valuable about this text is how it illustrates the enduring human need to understand what lies beyond death, and how moral choices in this life connect to eternal consequences. These themes resonate across cultures and centuries, regardless of specific theological interpretations.

Agreed.

Would anyone else like to share their thoughts on how these ancient texts address our modern psychological needs for meaning and justice?

The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a very simple illustration of what the relationship between the religious leaders and the common man and God was. None of it was to be taken literally.

What did Jesus mean when he said, "The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried, and in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom"? Since Hades refers to the grave and not to a place of torment, it is plain that Jesus was here telling a story. As evidence that this is not a literal account, consider this: Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on? Also, if the rich man were in a literal burning lake, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger? Jesus was illustrating the following:

The rich man stood for the self-important religious leaders who rejected Jesus and later killed him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually so that they thus came into the favor of the Greater Abraham, God. At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works. (Acts 7: 51-57) So this illustration does not teach that some dead persons are tormented in a literal fiery hell, as many are prone to think.

[myth-one.com]

The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God.

No, the Bible tells us that there are two type of bodies, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

And each of these two body types defined in the Bible require a separate and distinct type of birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The natural body comes first and may be followed by a spiritual body:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

There are celestial (heavenly spiritual) bodies and terrestrial (earthly natural) bodies, and they are different:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

In summary, there are two type of bodies, natural and spiritual, and they do not mix! There is no flesh body covering a spiritual body, or vice versa.

[placebofactor]

The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God. Now, that’s a mouthful and covers a great deal of ground. When we die, our bodies are returned to the ground.

Genesis 3:19, For out of it (the ground) were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”

Question, “What happens to a man’s soul, and spirit?” Answer: The saved go to be with the Lord, for those who reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will find themselves in a place called Hades.

The following occurred before Jesus was put to death, and before the church age began. Jesus is speaking to the Jews, the publicans, Pharisees, scribes, and sinners. He spoke of things the Jewish elite and the people believed and understood. The ancient Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead.

Now, Luke 16:22 concerns a beggar named Lazarus who was begging at the gate of an unidentified rich man. Verse 22, “It came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”

What does Luke mean by, “Carried off into Abraham’s bosom?” Matthew 8:11 tells us “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” This may allude to Luke 22:29-30 when Jesus spoke to his disciples at the Last Supper. “I appoint unto you a kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me; that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

As for the rich man, “He lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, with Lazarus in his bosom.” Because he is a Jew, he cries out, “Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.”

We know the man's body of flesh was buried in the ground, so what part of him remained that was able to see, hear, thirst, feel pain, and speak? The part of him that was in hell was his spirit and soul because of his pride, selfishness, and lack of compassion.

What’s going to happen to him? He will stand before the judgment seat of the LORD, but not until after the 1000-year reign of Christ ends. Revelation 20:5, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Verse 12, “And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13, “An they were judged every man according to their works.” From there, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. It’s not physical death, it’s spiritual death.

What about Lazarus? 1 Thessalonians 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” His body will no longer hunger or be covered with sores. Neither will our sickness and disease be with us. No cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor eyesight, heart, lung, kidney or liver diseases. We will possess a perfect body, the body we were intended to have before the fall of Adam and Eve.

Thanks for your well thought out reply, I enjoyed reading it.

1 Corinthians 15:52, “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

I find this interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 (the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) quite fascinating, though I would respectfully offer some additional context.

Historically the concept of the tripartite nature of humans (body, soul, and spirit) has been debated throughout Christian history. While this interpretation presents it as definitive, the Catholic tradition, following Thomas Aquinas, typically views humans as a unity of body and soul, with the spirit being an aspect of the soul rather than a separate component.

Agreed,

The text's interpretation of "Abraham's bosom" aligns with traditional Jewish understanding, though I should point out that this concept evolved significantly during the Second Temple period. The imagery Jesus uses here would have been immediately recognizable to his Jewish audience, drawing from contemporary beliefs about the afterlife.

Again, I agree.

Psychologically what I find particularly compelling is how this parable addresses fundamental human concerns about death, justice, and eternal consequences. The rich man's ability to feel, think, and communicate after death speaks to deep-seated human anxieties about consciousness beyond physical existence.

This parable is unlike the Lord's other parables where spiritual things are represented by similar things borrowed from earthly things. A good example is the parable of the Sower and Reaper. But here in Luke, the spiritual things themselves are represented in a description of the various states of good and bad in this world and the other world. We will always have the poor with us who will die, and in death, leave their miseries behind. The godly poor will be received with joy by the Lord. We also have those who need nothing, living in luxury and unconcerned with the poverty around them. These will also die, but their soul and spirit, as the rich man's soul and spirit, were in a state of torment. I also find it unusual that a name (Lazarus) is given to the poor man, I don't recall that in any of Jesus' other parables.

I often wonder if the poor man Lazarus could be Martha's brother Lazarus whom the Lord raised from the tomb.

The eschatological timeline presented (regarding the thousand-year reign and final judgment) reflects a particular interpretative tradition, though I should note that Catholic theology traditionally takes a different approach to these prophecies. We typically view much of Revelation's imagery as allegorical rather than strictly literal.

Is this because the Catholics do not believe in eternal punishment, therefore no hell? Catholics teach temporary punishment in a place they call Purgatory. Of course, they would examine Luke in a different light. The Jehovah's Witnesses picked up on this same teaching of no hell, and like Catholics, they believe one day everyone will be saved.

What's particularly valuable about this text is how it illustrates the enduring human need to understand what lies beyond death, and how moral choices in this life connect to eternal consequences. These themes resonate across cultures and centuries, regardless of specific theological interpretations.

Agreed.

Would anyone else like to share their thoughts on how these ancient texts address our modern psychological needs for meaning and justice?

You wrote, "The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a very simple illustration of what the relationship between the religious leaders and the common man and God was. None of it was to be taken literally."

To spiritualize any verse can be dangerous if incorrectly understood. Let's look at the two verses before the rich man and Lazarus commentary. Verse 17, "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one title (one small stroke) of the law to fail." Would you spiritualize that verse, I wouldn't.

Verse 18, "Whosoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whosoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." Would you spiritualize that verse? I wouldn't.

Also, no other parable coming from Jesus uses a proper name, for this reason, the story should be told as a true event and not be spiritualized. I have no idea why a story like this cannot be true. That was the way of life back then. The very rich, and the very poor. The poor would set themselves at the rich man's gate, begging for food or a few coins. Their clothing was filthy, eat poor food (garbage), no medical care, and a variety of diseases, all very common 2000 years ago.

If a person does not believe in God's judgments, and the rewards and punishments that follow. For the faithful, these will be with the Lord. For those who die in their sins, they will be judged unworthy, their destination, will be the lake of fire. What you need to reconsider is, if there is a heaven, there is a Hell. If there are rewards for believers, there is punishment for unbelievers. God's justice is what it is, to deny that is to deny God's word, which I believe to be direct, clear, and to the point.

[JehovahsWitness]

no other parable coming from Jesus uses a proper name, for this reason, the story should be told as a true event

Where is this rule in scripture?

1. There is no scripture that says "If Jesus uses a proper name, the story must be taken literally" that is your (human) reasoning.

2. IF naming an individual means their experience must be taken literally, the rich man and his fate must, by that reasoning, be symbolic since HE (The rich man) is not named.

TO SPIRITUALIZE

1. to make spiritual
especially : to purify from the corrupting influences of the world
2. to give a spiritual meaning to or understand in a spiritual sense

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spiritualize

Everything in the bible is spiritual and must be examined spiritually according to 1 Corinthians chapter 2 verse 14b

1 CORINTHIANS 2:14

But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually

[onewithhim]

The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God. Now, that’s a mouthful and covers a great deal of ground. When we die, our bodies are returned to the ground.

Genesis 3:19, For out of it (the ground) were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”

Question, “What happens to a man’s soul, and spirit?” Answer: The saved go to be with the Lord, for those who reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will find themselves in a place called Hades.

The following occurred before Jesus was put to death, and before the church age began. Jesus is speaking to the Jews, the publicans, Pharisees, scribes, and sinners. He spoke of things the Jewish elite and the people believed and understood. The ancient Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead.

Now, Luke 16:22 concerns a beggar named Lazarus who was begging at the gate of an unidentified rich man. Verse 22, “It came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”

What does Luke mean by, “Carried off into Abraham’s bosom?” Matthew 8:11 tells us “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” This may allude to Luke 22:29-30 when Jesus spoke to his disciples at the Last Supper. “I appoint unto you a kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me; that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

As for the rich man, “He lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, with Lazarus in his bosom.” Because he is a Jew, he cries out, “Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.”

We know the man's body of flesh was buried in the ground, so what part of him remained that was able to see, hear, thirst, feel pain, and speak? The part of him that was in hell was his spirit and soul because of his pride, selfishness, and lack of compassion.

What’s going to happen to him? He will stand before the judgment seat of the LORD, but not until after the 1000-year reign of Christ ends. Revelation 20:5, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Verse 12, “And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13, “An they were judged every man according to their works.” From there, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. It’s not physical death, it’s spiritual death.

What about Lazarus? 1 Thessalonians 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” His body will no longer hunger or be covered with sores. Neither will our sickness and disease be with us. No cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor eyesight, heart, lung, kidney or liver diseases. We will possess a perfect body, the body we were intended to have before the fall of Adam and Eve.

Thanks for your well thought out reply, I enjoyed reading it.

1 Corinthians 15:52, “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

I find this interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 (the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) quite fascinating, though I would respectfully offer some additional context.

Historically the concept of the tripartite nature of humans (body, soul, and spirit) has been debated throughout Christian history. While this interpretation presents it as definitive, the Catholic tradition, following Thomas Aquinas, typically views humans as a unity of body and soul, with the spirit being an aspect of the soul rather than a separate component.

Agreed,

The text's interpretation of "Abraham's bosom" aligns with traditional Jewish understanding, though I should point out that this concept evolved significantly during the Second Temple period. The imagery Jesus uses here would have been immediately recognizable to his Jewish audience, drawing from contemporary beliefs about the afterlife.

Again, I agree.

Psychologically what I find particularly compelling is how this parable addresses fundamental human concerns about death, justice, and eternal consequences. The rich man's ability to feel, think, and communicate after death speaks to deep-seated human anxieties about consciousness beyond physical existence.

This parable is unlike the Lord's other parables where spiritual things are represented by similar things borrowed from earthly things. A good example is the parable of the Sower and Reaper. But here in Luke, the spiritual things themselves are represented in a description of the various states of good and bad in this world and the other world. We will always have the poor with us who will die, and in death, leave their miseries behind. The godly poor will be received with joy by the Lord. We also have those who need nothing, living in luxury and unconcerned with the poverty around them. These will also die, but their soul and spirit, as the rich man's soul and spirit, were in a state of torment. I also find it unusual that a name (Lazarus) is given to the poor man, I don't recall that in any of Jesus' other parables.

I often wonder if the poor man Lazarus could be Martha's brother Lazarus whom the Lord raised from the tomb.

The eschatological timeline presented (regarding the thousand-year reign and final judgment) reflects a particular interpretative tradition, though I should note that Catholic theology traditionally takes a different approach to these prophecies. We typically view much of Revelation's imagery as allegorical rather than strictly literal.

Is this because the Catholics do not believe in eternal punishment, therefore no hell? Catholics teach temporary punishment in a place they call Purgatory. Of course, they would examine Luke in a different light. The Jehovah's Witnesses picked up on this same teaching of no hell, and like Catholics, they believe one day everyone will be saved.

What's particularly valuable about this text is how it illustrates the enduring human need to understand what lies beyond death, and how moral choices in this life connect to eternal consequences. These themes resonate across cultures and centuries, regardless of specific theological interpretations.

Agreed.

Would anyone else like to share their thoughts on how these ancient texts address our modern psychological needs for meaning and justice?

You wrote, "The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a very simple illustration of what the relationship between the religious leaders and the common man and God was. None of it was to be taken literally."

To spiritualize any verse can be dangerous if incorrectly understood. Let's look at the two verses before the rich man and Lazarus commentary. Verse 17, "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one title (one small stroke) of the law to fail." Would you spiritualize that verse, I wouldn't.

Verse 18, "Whosoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whosoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery." Would you spiritualize that verse? I wouldn't.

Also, no other parable coming from Jesus uses a proper name, for this reason, the story should be told as a true event and not be spiritualized. I have no idea why a story like this cannot be true. That was the way of life back then. The very rich, and the very poor. The poor would set themselves at the rich man's gate, begging for food or a few coins. Their clothing was filthy, eat poor food (garbage), no medical care, and a variety of diseases, all very common 2000 years ago.

If a person does not believe in God's judgments, and the rewards and punishments that follow. For the faithful, these will be with the Lord. For those who die in their sins, they will be judged unworthy, their destination, will be the lake of fire. What you need to reconsider is, if there is a heaven, there is a Hell. If there are rewards for believers, there is punishment for unbelievers. God's justice is what it is, to deny that is to deny God's word, which I believe to be direct, clear, and to the point.

I don't know what you mean by "spiritualizing" a verse. And what is so important to your view as the proper name "Lazarus"? It was not an actual individual that Jesus was talking about. It meant a whole class of people, those that accepted Jesus. The name Lazarus was used only because it was a common name and would include many righteously-inclined people who actually listened to Him. The poor sitting at the rich man's gate begging for food is symbolic for the common people wanting spiritual food from the religious leaders but receiving none. Jesus gave a scathing review of the religious leaders. (Matthew the 23rd chapter) The whole parable was aimed at them and their hypocrisy. And how could it be literal that there could be a conversation between "hell" and heaven? And how could it be literal that a man in a place of fire could be soothed with one drop of water? It is clearly not to be taken literally, but to look at it as a testament to the evil of the Pharisees. Jesus gave many parables that would not be taken at face value but addressed important points, like the Kingdom being like a precious pearl or like a dragnet. (Matthew 13:45-49) Do you take those literally?

[JehovahsWitness]

...I have no idea why a story like this cannot be true.

The question is not whether the story is true or untrue ( Jesus is obviously teaching spiritual truths) , the question is , should the story be take literally or not.

..That was the way of life back then. The very rich, and the very poor. The poor would set themselves at the rich man's gate, begging for food or a few coins. Their clothing was filthy, eat poor food (garbage), no medical care, and a variety of diseases, all very common 2000 years ago.

Jesus was not giving a lesson in social science, nor was he documenting the historical realities of life in Roman times. As the Apostle Paul explained, the fleshly or physically thinking man only looks at bible stories in a physical sense and does not try and look beyond the surface. The man was dirty, Jesus must have been teaching about dirt. The rich man had a lot if food , Jesus must have been teaching about bacon.

The reality was Jesus that all of Jesus illustrations taught deeper thoughts. In this case the general public at best took home the point to be generous and share what you have. As valid as that elementary point was, the context indicates there was much more to the story (And no it was not that if you are poor and dirty you get a free pass to heaven or that people survive death and are tortured if they are mean).

[placebofactor]

...I have no idea why a story like this cannot be true.

The question is not whether the story is true or untrue ( Jesus is obviously teaching spiritual truths) , the question is , should the story be take literally or not.

..That was the way of life back then. The very rich, and the very poor. The poor would set themselves at the rich man's gate, begging for food or a few coins. Their clothing was filthy, eat poor food (garbage), no medical care, and a variety of diseases, all very common 2000 years ago.

Jesus was not giving a lesson in social science, nor was he documenting the historical realities of life in Roman times. As the Apostle Paul explained, the fleshly or physically thinking man only looks at bible stories in a physical sense and does not try and look beyond the surface. The man was dirty, Jesus must have been teaching about dirt. The rich man had a lot if food , Jesus must have been teaching about bacon.

The reality was Jesus that all of Jesus illustrations taught deeper thoughts. In this case the general public at best took home the point to be generous and share what you have. As valid as that elementary point was, the context indicates there was much more to the story (And no it was not that if you are poor and dirty you get a free pass to heaven or that people survive death and are tortured if they are mean).

Okay, conversation over!

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay, conversation over!

A very wise decision on your part; it is best to humbly back out when one cannot support ones position with Scripture.

ALLEGORY

As a literary device, an allegory is a metaphor in which a character, place or event is used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS : A STORY OF ALLEGORICAL DEATH

• One of the objections to the suggestion that Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus was entirely allegorical, is that Jesus supposedly would not have used death as an metaphor.
  
  
  
  Some suggest that his doing so would have been confusing for those that had adopted the pagan teaching of the immortality of the soul and/or be seen as somehow endorsing that teaching, which he would never have done had he himself not believed it to be true. Some therefore conclude that one of the points of his story must have been to educate people about the condition of the dead and the agony that awaits the wicked in the afterlife.

JESUS AND METAPHOR

• The gospel writers note that Jesus use of metaphor, allegory, visual aids and illustrations was prolific, indeed one writer observed that"without an illustration he would not speak". He drew on the everyday items, events and habits, even if, for some they occassionally seemed confusing or controversial.
  
  
  WOULD JESUS HAVE AVOIDED USING DEATH AS A METAPHOR FOR FEAR OF BEING MISCONSTRUED?
  
  JESUS told a would-be disciple he needed to be born...twice, said John the Baptiser was Elijah, told his disciples they needed to eat his body and drink his blood, hack off their own limbs if they were an impediment to salvation and said the respected religious leaders of his time they would end up on the city garbage heap. Clearly Jesus was not one to shy away from making his point for fear some would take away the wrong idea. Of course some could (and do even today) conclude Jesus was promoting self mutilation, canabalism, reincarnation and a disregard for burial traditions but those with insight would understand the hyperbole or humbly seek more instruction.
  
  He used birth as a metaphor for the spirit anointing, , virgins for the faithful, marriage for the kingdom arrangement, children for the religious elite....given all that it would arguably be an anomaly for him not to have used death as a metaphor for something sooner or later. Why since he used, birth, marriage, childen, fathers, would "death" be deemed as "allegorically untouchabe"?

LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD!

• Jesus's cautioned a disciple who hesitated to join him on the pretext that he had to bury his relative to "Let the dead bury their dead". The warning makes little sense unless he is using death in at lease one of the mentions allegorically. Evidently Jesus did not shy away from speaking about those that are literally alive as being "dead" (ie having died metaphorically).
  
  Indeed if Jesus listeners were unfamiliar with the idea of an allegorical "death" they should not have been. The Prophet Ezekiel had recorded God's promise to his exiled people, saying ...
  

  " I open your graves and when I raise you up out of your graves, O my people. I will put my spirit in you and you will come to life, and I will settle you on your land."

  Likening their captivity to being in the grave God here addresses people who were literally alive in Babylon as if they were dead in the grave. An allegorical grave representing thir real life captivity. A allegorical death representing their exile. And an allegorical "resurrection" representing their return.

CONCLUSION Jesus drew on the human experience including birth and death to illustrate educate, encourage, reprimand or rebuke. Thus there is no reason to conclude that the "death" of Lazarus and the Rich man could not be illustrating somethjng OTHER than literal death. If an allegory is a "character, place or event" used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences, then the allegorical "death" of a fictional rich man, who went to a made up place of torment, could well have been Jesus way of communicating something about the real life situation he saw around him and nothing whatsoever to do with the condition of the dead.

RELATED POSTS

Luke 16:22-30 : Does the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus teach us about life beyond the grave?
viewtopic.php?p=1162187#p1162187

In the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus, was death a metaphor for .... "death" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1027531#p1027531

The Rich man and Lazarus: Is it "circular reasoning" to use Jesus illustration alone to prove "death" and "hades" is a place of torment?
viewtopic.php?p=1027686#p1027686

Does Luke 12:5 indicate there is a part of a person living after they die ?
viewtopic.php?p=1027464#p1027464

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HADES , GEHENNA, and ... HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

[placebofactor]

Okay, conversation over!

A very wise decision on your part; it is best to humbly back out when one cannot support ones position with Scripture.

ALLEGORY

As a literary device, an allegory is a metaphor in which a character, place or event is used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS : A STORY OF ALLEGORICAL DEATH

• One of the objections to the suggestion that Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus was entirely allegorical, is that Jesus supposedly would not have used death as an metaphor.
  
  
  
  Some suggest that his doing so would have been confusing for those that had adopted the pagan teaching of the immortality of the soul and/or be seen as somehow endorsing that teaching, which he would never have done had he himself not believed it to be true. Some therefore conclude that one of the points of his story must have been to educate people about the condition of the dead and the agony that awaits the wicked in the afterlife.

JESUS AND METAPHOR

• The gospel writers note that Jesus use of metaphor, allegory, visual aids and illustrations was prolific, indeed one writer observed that"without an illustration he would not speak". He drew on the everyday items, events and habits, even if, for some they occassionally seemed confusing or controversial.
  
  
  WOULD JESUS HAVE AVOIDED USING DEATH AS A METAPHOR FOR FEAR OF BEING MISCONSTRUED?
  
  JESUS told a would-be disciple he needed to be born...twice, said John the Baptiser was Elijah, told his disciples they needed to eat his body and drink his blood, hack off their own limbs if they were an impediment to salvation and said the respected religious leaders of his time they would end up on the city garbage heap. Clearly Jesus was not one to shy away from making his point for fear some would take away the wrong idea. Of course some could (and do even today) conclude Jesus was promoting self mutilation, canabalism, reincarnation and a disregard for burial traditions but those with insight would understand the hyperbole or humbly seek more instruction.
  
  He used birth as a metaphor for the spirit anointing, , virgins for the faithful, marriage for the kingdom arrangement, children for the religious elite....given all that it would arguably be an anomaly for him not to have used death as a metaphor for something sooner or later. Why since he used, birth, marriage, childen, fathers, would "death" be deemed as "allegorically untouchabe"?

LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD!

• Jesus's cautioned a disciple who hesitated to join him on the pretext that he had to bury his relative to "Let the dead bury their dead". The warning makes little sense unless he is using death in at lease one of the mentions allegorically. Evidently Jesus did not shy away from speaking about those that are literally alive as being "dead" (ie having died metaphorically).
  
  Indeed if Jesus listeners were unfamiliar with the idea of an allegorical "death" they should not have been. The Prophet Ezekiel had recorded God's promise to his exiled people, saying ...
  

  " I open your graves and when I raise you up out of your graves, O my people.�’ ‘I will put my spirit in you and you will come to life, and I will settle you on your land.�

  Likening their captivity to being in the grave God here addresses people who were literally alive in Babylon as if they were dead in the grave. An allegorical grave representing thir real life captivity. A allegorical death representing their exile. And an allegorical "resurrection" representing their return.

CONCLUSION Jesus drew on the human experience including birth and death to illustrate educate, encourage, reprimand or rebuke. Thus there is no reason to conclude that the "death" of Lazarus and the Rich man could not be illustrating somethjng OTHER than literal death. If an allegory is a "character, place or event" used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences, then the allegorical "death" of a fictional rich man, who went to a made up place of torment, could well have been Jesus way of communicating something about the real life situation he saw around him and nothing whatsoever to do with the condition of the dead.

RELATED POSTS

Luke 16:22-30 : Does the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus teach us about life beyond the grave?
viewtopic.php?p=1162187#p1162187

In the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus, was death a metaphor for .... "death" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1027531#p1027531

The Rich man and Lazarus: Is it "circular reasoning" to use Jesus illustration alone to prove "death" and "hades" is a place of torment?
viewtopic.php?p=1027686#p1027686

Does Luke 12:5 indicate there is a part of a person living after they die ?
viewtopic.php?p=1027464#p1027464

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HADES , GEHENNA, and ... HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

I often chuckle when I see people go through life kidding themselves and then try to convince others. Matthew 28, Jesus said, "Go you (the disciples) therefore, and teach (make disciples of) all nations, (Gentiles), baptizing them in the name of the Father, (that's the first person of the Godhead), and of the Son (that's the second person of the Godhead) and the Holy Spirit (that's the third person of the Godhead)."

Each is connected with "AND." Three speaking with one voice, one goal, one glory, one judgment. One "and" two "and" three: Joe, and Sam, and Phil: Up and down and sideways: Height, and width and depth: Bell, and book and candle. Florida, and Alabama, and Mississippi.

You will agree with each of the above there are three, but for whatever reason, when it comes to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, that is not three, it's two.

2 Corinthians 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (the first person) and the love of God (the Father, second person) and the communion of the Holy Ghost (third person) be with you all. Amen.

Again, the corrupted N.W.T. went from upper case to lower case with the Holy Spirit but kept the Son and Father in upper case. Naughty, Naughty.

The doctrine of the Trinity (three) is not a mathematical puzzle, except for minds resolved to see nothing but elementary mathematics gone haywire.

The above is my proof. Your proof appears to depend on denial, if I'm wrong, please explain the above of 1-2-3.



I notice the corrupt N.W.T. of the Jehovah's Witnesses changed Holy Spirit to lower case, shame on them!

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay, conversation over!

A very wise decision on your part; it is best to humbly back out when one cannot support ones position with Scripture.

ALLEGORY

As a literary device, an allegory is a metaphor in which a character, place or event is used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS : A STORY OF ALLEGORICAL DEATH

• One of the objections to the suggestion that Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus was entirely allegorical, is that Jesus supposedly would not have used death as an metaphor.
  
  
  
  Some suggest that his doing so would have been confusing for those that had adopted the pagan teaching of the immortality of the soul and/or be seen as somehow endorsing that teaching, which he would never have done had he himself not believed it to be true. Some therefore conclude that one of the points of his story must have been to educate people about the condition of the dead and the agony that awaits the wicked in the afterlife.

JESUS AND METAPHOR

• The gospel writers note that Jesus use of metaphor, allegory, visual aids and illustrations was prolific, indeed one writer observed that"without an illustration he would not speak". He drew on the everyday items, events and habits, even if, for some they occassionally seemed confusing or controversial.
  
  
  WOULD JESUS HAVE AVOIDED USING DEATH AS A METAPHOR FOR FEAR OF BEING MISCONSTRUED?
  
  JESUS told a would-be disciple he needed to be born...twice, said John the Baptiser was Elijah, told his disciples they needed to eat his body and drink his blood, hack off their own limbs if they were an impediment to salvation and said the respected religious leaders of his time they would end up on the city garbage heap. Clearly Jesus was not one to shy away from making his point for fear some would take away the wrong idea. Of course some could (and do even today) conclude Jesus was promoting self mutilation, canabalism, reincarnation and a disregard for burial traditions but those with insight would understand the hyperbole or humbly seek more instruction.
  
  He used birth as a metaphor for the spirit anointing, , virgins for the faithful, marriage for the kingdom arrangement, children for the religious elite....given all that it would arguably be an anomaly for him not to have used death as a metaphor for something sooner or later. Why since he used, birth, marriage, childen, fathers, would "death" be deemed as "allegorically untouchabe"?

LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD!

• Jesus's cautioned a disciple who hesitated to join him on the pretext that he had to bury his relative to "Let the dead bury their dead". The warning makes little sense unless he is using death in at lease one of the mentions allegorically. Evidently Jesus did not shy away from speaking about those that are literally alive as being "dead" (ie having died metaphorically).
  
  Indeed if Jesus listeners were unfamiliar with the idea of an allegorical "death" they should not have been. The Prophet Ezekiel had recorded God's promise to his exiled people, saying ...
  

  " I open your graves and when I raise you up out of your graves, O my people. I will put my spirit in you and you will come to life, and I will settle you on your land.

  Likening their captivity to being in the grave God here addresses people who were literally alive in Babylon as if they were dead in the grave. An allegorical grave representing thir real life captivity. A allegorical death representing their exile. And an allegorical "resurrection" representing their return.

CONCLUSION Jesus drew on the human experience including birth and death to illustrate educate, encourage, reprimand or rebuke. Thus there is no reason to conclude that the "death" of Lazarus and the Rich man could not be illustrating somethjng OTHER than literal death. If an allegory is a "character, place or event" used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences, then the allegorical "death" of a fictional rich man, who went to a made up place of torment, could well have been Jesus way of communicating something about the real life situation he saw around him and nothing whatsoever to do with the condition of the dead.

RELATED POSTS

Luke 16:22-30 : Does the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus teach us about life beyond the grave?
viewtopic.php?p=1162187#p1162187

In the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus, was death a metaphor for .... "death" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1027531#p1027531

The Rich man and Lazarus: Is it "circular reasoning" to use Jesus illustration alone to prove "death" and "hades" is a place of torment?
viewtopic.php?p=1027686#p1027686

Does Luke 12:5 indicate there is a part of a person living after they die ?
viewtopic.php?p=1027464#p1027464

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HADES , GEHENNA, and ... HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

I often chuckle when I see people go through life kidding themselves and then try to convince others. Matthew 28 ...

How is your reference to Matthew 28 a rebuttal of the points made in the post?