Atheism cannot be wrong

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

What can I possibly mean by that?
Notice that the title is about Atheism, and not Atheists..
I will be making that quite plain below

But first….

Definitions:

Atheism:

A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is an expression of a disbelief.
When I say that I'm an atheist, I am expressing my disbelief, I'm not making a claim that the god isn't real.
It might be real, I might be mistaken, your god might be real, but as an atheist, I just don't believe it.

Theism:

A belief in at least one god.
Theism is an expression of belief. When I say that I'm a theist, I'm expressing my belief that at least one god exists. My god might not be real. I might be mistaken. But as a theist, I believe that my god is real.

_________________________

Atheism isn't a moral claim:

Atheism cannot be morally wrong, as in “evil,” and it cannot be morally right, as in “good.”

Atheism isn't a truth claim:

Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong.
______________________________

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

Atheists can and do have moral and factual judgments of claims.. For example, I am very willing to discuss my conclusions about Christianity and all theism in general.

Atheists and Atheism are not identical.
The first means people who do not believe in gods, and the second is the position of a non-belief in gods.

I will remind you of that at the end of my preamble.
The distinction is crucial.

______________________________

Here is an example of a short conversation to explain what that means:

Christian : Hi.
Atheist: I don't believe in your god.
Christian: Is atheism making the truth claim that "there are no gods"?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making the claim that Atheism is correct?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making a truth claim?
Atheist: No. Atheism itself makes no truth claim. “I don't believe in your god” describes my mental state, not a claim about whether your god exists.

As you can see, the only claim that an atheist needs to make is that "I don't believe in your god".

_________________________

As to morality, it's the same deal:

Christian: Hi.
Atheist: I don't follow your morality.
Christian: Are you claiming that my morality is evil?
Atheist: Atheism itself makes no moral claims. I have my own, personal opinions, though.
Christian: Does atheism claim the moral high ground?
Atheist: No.
Christian: When it comes to morality, what ARE you claiming?
Atheist: Atheism does not make a moral claim. I'm simply saying that I don't follow your morality, and I can explain why.
________________________________________

The atheist in these conversations isn't making a truth claim about the existence of your God, and it's not making a moral claim about your God, your religion, or yourself.

“I don't believe X” does not logically entail “I believe not-X.”

Example: “I don't believe extraterrestrial life exists” does not mean “I believe extraterrestrial life does not exist.”

Christians should be aware of what most modern atheists are saying because it would save us all a lot of time.

Pew provides useful evidence. In 2019, 97% of self-described atheists defined atheist as someone who does not believe in God, rather than explicitly claiming God does not exist.

This 97% can be noticed across most social media, including reddit atheists. Very few atheists insist that they know there is no God. .. It would be nice if reddit allowed for polls, we could make a quick test of what atheists actually claim.

So, if you can accept that we aren't making any truth claim or moral claim, then, atheism can't be factually or morally wrong.

Remember, that I'm not talking about my personal position on Christianity as the truth, nor am I talking about my personal position on Christianity as morally righteous.

Those would be my personal opinions, not the meaning of atheism.


The Argument:

P1: Non-belief in X does not entail a factual or moral claim about X.
P2: Atheism, understood as non-belief, is non-belief in gods.

C: Therefore, atheism cannot be factually or morally wrong.

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #26]

"it is a claim about a person's mental state" but you dont lack a belief, you just pretend you do, because a person who doesnt have a belief dont make claims such as: "the biblical God "ignorant, violent, and ineffective."

I know how I describe the god of the bible.
That represents my personal opinion.

Atheism does not represent my personal opinion about the god of the bible.

I agree that when I call the god of the bible a "crazy evil wizard of great, but limited powers" that I am making claims about how the bible describes it's main character.

Those are for sure claims.

Atheism does not make claims other than that a person is skeptical of theistic claims.

So is atheism you framework or the abscence of framework? if atheism is the absence of a framework, and that is your position, then what you are admitting... is that you already surrendered to the inability to generate true knowledge.

In other words, your posture is: "I don't know, and I can't know anything, but I still want to give my opinion because I like to feel intelligent."

[Clownboat]

Atheism does not make claims other than that a person is skeptical of theistic claims.

I would like to challenge this claim!
However... upon reading it, there is nothing to challenge as this claim is true in that the only requirement to be an atheist, is to lack belief. Holding a belief that the gods are not real is not a requirement.

We can even break it down grammatically and they will still refuse to accept it:

a- (Prefix): A Greek prefix meaning "without" or "not". It acts as a negative or privative particle.
the- (Root): Derived from the Greek word theos, meaning "god" or "deity".
-ism (Suffix): A noun-forming suffix meaning "belief," "practice," or "doctrine".

Literally, "without god belief" and yet many Christians still pretend that atheist are something that they are not.
Again, I believe it is the desired view for many Christians for atheists to be some enemy of Christianity that drives this misunderstanding. Perhaps there is a better explanation and I should amend my thinking on the matter?

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #6]

If atheism is a lack of belief – a mental state – then it is undefeatable, but it is also less than worthless.

Yeah, I get it that you feel atheism is worthless .. its to be expected.
You don't like atheism very much, do you?

I don't think that you feel it's worthless due to my argument, though.

The reason that atheism can't prove "no God " is because theism is undefeatable because it cannot prove "God".

If you could prove God, then theism could not be defeatable.
Since you seem to admit that you have no proof of God, then that fact alone makes theism defeated.

Until further notice, of course.. you may yet find proof of God.
There's always that chance, right?

God is a necessary concept in logic, logic could not exist without it. So it is an axiom... and as any other axiom, you dont need to prove them, you need to accept them in order to create knowledege.

[Vilferatus]

Atheism does not make claims other than that a person is skeptical of theistic claims.

I would like to challenge this claim!
However... upon reading it, there is nothing to challenge as this claim is true in that the only requirement to be an atheist, is to lack belief. Holding a belief that the gods are not real is not a requirement.

We can even break it down grammatically and they will still refuse to accept it:

a- (Prefix): A Greek prefix meaning "without" or "not". It acts as a negative or privative particle.
the- (Root): Derived from the Greek word theos, meaning "god" or "deity".
-ism (Suffix): A noun-forming suffix meaning "belief," "practice," or "doctrine".

Literally, "without god belief" and yet many Christians still pretend that atheist are something that they are not.
Again, I believe it is the desired view for many Christians for atheists to be some enemy of Christianity that drives this misunderstanding. Perhaps there is a better explanation and I should amend my thinking on the matter?

If someone claims that they are atheist, under the definition you just provided..

what would be their stance? can you define that?

or atheism is just a label that people use to hide their real beliefs so they dont have any burden of proof?

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #31]

So is atheism you framework or the abscence of framework? if atheism is the absence of a framework

_________________________________


You hit it right on the nail !!

Thanks for helping me clarify ... I have to admit that I have been struggling.

If theism is a framework that depends on the belief in the existence of god(s), then atheism is a lack of that framework.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #31]

if atheism is the absence of a framework, and that is your position, then what you are admitting... is that you already surrendered to the inability to generate true knowledge.

In other words, your posture is: "I don't know, and I can't know anything, but I still want to give my opinion because I like to feel intelligent."

_________________________________

I didn't mention that posture because it's not my posture.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #20]
If atheism is the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief whether claiming or not claiming that no gods exist, then there are two ways to be an atheist and two ways only.

I'll tentatively accept that conclusion for now but reserve the right to be smarter later. I'm still not sure what your point is?

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #20]
But theists can be wrong----or right----about which god(s) are believed in.

Sure. Your point is...?

My point is that atheism is a belief, the belief that no gods exist (it's a belief because it can't be proven).

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #31]

if atheism is the absence of a framework, and that is your position, then what you are admitting... is that you already surrendered to the inability to generate true knowledge.

In other words, your posture is: "I don't know, and I can't know anything, but I still want to give my opinion because I like to feel intelligent."

_________________________________

I didn't mention that posture because it's not my posture.

can you define your posture?

[bluegreenearth]

My point is that atheism is a belief, the belief that no gods exist (it's a belief because it can't be proven).

It has already been conclusively demonstrated to you that atheism does not claim no gods exist. Some few atheists might make that claim, but atheism itself and the majority of atheists do not. Most atheists claim to lack belief in the claim that a god exists. That means atheism is not the belief that no gods exist. Your point is thoroughly refuted.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #39]

It has already been conclusively demonstrated to you that atheism does not claim no gods exist. Some few atheists might make that claim, but atheism itself and the majority of atheists do not. Most atheists claim to lack belief in the claim that a god exists. That means atheism is not the belief that no gods exist. Your point is thoroughly refuted.

BELIEF
Merriam-Webster Definition 2----
"something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed"

Atheists believe that no gods exist. Therefore, the nonexistence of gods is atheists' belief.