Atheism cannot be wrong

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

What can I possibly mean by that?
Notice that the title is about Atheism, and not Atheists..
I will be making that quite plain below

But first….

Definitions:

Atheism:

A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is an expression of a disbelief.
When I say that I'm an atheist, I am expressing my disbelief, I'm not making a claim that the god isn't real.
It might be real, I might be mistaken, your god might be real, but as an atheist, I just don't believe it.

Theism:

A belief in at least one god.
Theism is an expression of belief. When I say that I'm a theist, I'm expressing my belief that at least one god exists. My god might not be real. I might be mistaken. But as a theist, I believe that my god is real.

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Atheism isn't a moral claim:

Atheism cannot be morally wrong, as in “evil,” and it cannot be morally right, as in “good.”

Atheism isn't a truth claim:

Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong.
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I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

Atheists can and do have moral and factual judgments of claims.. For example, I am very willing to discuss my conclusions about Christianity and all theism in general.

Atheists and Atheism are not identical.
The first means people who do not believe in gods, and the second is the position of a non-belief in gods.

I will remind you of that at the end of my preamble.
The distinction is crucial.

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Here is an example of a short conversation to explain what that means:

Christian : Hi.
Atheist: I don't believe in your god.
Christian: Is atheism making the truth claim that "there are no gods"?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making the claim that Atheism is correct?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making a truth claim?
Atheist: No. Atheism itself makes no truth claim. “I don't believe in your god” describes my mental state, not a claim about whether your god exists.

As you can see, the only claim that an atheist needs to make is that "I don't believe in your god".

_________________________

As to morality, it's the same deal:

Christian: Hi.
Atheist: I don't follow your morality.
Christian: Are you claiming that my morality is evil?
Atheist: Atheism itself makes no moral claims. I have my own, personal opinions, though.
Christian: Does atheism claim the moral high ground?
Atheist: No.
Christian: When it comes to morality, what ARE you claiming?
Atheist: Atheism does not make a moral claim. I'm simply saying that I don't follow your morality, and I can explain why.
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The atheist in these conversations isn't making a truth claim about the existence of your God, and it's not making a moral claim about your God, your religion, or yourself.

“I don't believe X” does not logically entail “I believe not-X.”

Example: “I don't believe extraterrestrial life exists” does not mean “I believe extraterrestrial life does not exist.”

Christians should be aware of what most modern atheists are saying because it would save us all a lot of time.

Pew provides useful evidence. In 2019, 97% of self-described atheists defined atheist as someone who does not believe in God, rather than explicitly claiming God does not exist.

This 97% can be noticed across most social media, including reddit atheists. Very few atheists insist that they know there is no God. .. It would be nice if reddit allowed for polls, we could make a quick test of what atheists actually claim.

So, if you can accept that we aren't making any truth claim or moral claim, then, atheism can't be factually or morally wrong.

Remember, that I'm not talking about my personal position on Christianity as the truth, nor am I talking about my personal position on Christianity as morally righteous.

Those would be my personal opinions, not the meaning of atheism.


The Argument:

P1: Non-belief in X does not entail a factual or moral claim about X.
P2: Atheism, understood as non-belief, is non-belief in gods.

C: Therefore, atheism cannot be factually or morally wrong.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #11]

Atheism is only a claim about a person's mental state which is a rejection of theism.
Theism is the claim that at least one god is real, which is used to justify the belief in particular gods.

Do you see the difference between the two?

Yes the difference is one says something, and the other pretends to say something, and then claim they dont when proved wrong.

I have no idea how you understood that distinction from what I just wrote.
Can you elaborate?

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #13]

Atheism is only a claim about a person's mental state which is a rejection of theism.
Theism is the claim that at least one god is real, which is used to justify the belief in particular gods.

Do you see the difference between the two?

In the context you yourself have specified there is no difference between them, because they are both beliefs. You're trying to differentiate by labeling atheism a belief while labeling theism as a claim.

I struggle to understand where you think I specified there is no distinction, when I clearly made a distinction in my comment that you quoted.

Yes, atheism and theism could be qualified as about beliefs, no, atheism isn't a belief.
Theism is a belief.

Atheism is the rejection of theism, it is not itself a belief.
It's a NON-BELIEF, the very opposite of having a belief.

Both atheism and theism can be said to be claims, but not at all about the same thing.

Theism is a claim about "Theos" or god(s).
Atheism is a claim about a mental state, i.e. a rejection of theism.

Theism is about GOD, atheism is about SKEPTICISM.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #13]

A non-fundamentalist theist will believe in the existence of a god or gods, while a hard atheist will claim that no gods exist.

I don't use the term "hard atheist".

I'm an agnostic atheist and I don't believe in the supernatural or superstitions.

Agnostic atheist is what I use.

Whether a position is a belief or a claim depends less on the position itself and more on how much credence the individual gives it.

I don't know if I can agree with that.
I can believe something and then claim it.

I generally don't claim something that I don't believe to be true.
I would be lying.

If someone says " I am making the claim that God is real".. I think that person probably believes that God is real.

If someone says "I am making the claim that God is not real" I think that person probably believes that God is not real.

I'm assuming honest people right now.. not dishonest or delusional people.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #20]

The cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief applies to the atheist who doesn't claim no gods exist and to the atheist who does claim no gods exist. Both types of atheists lack a positive belief in the existence of a god, even if one type also has a positive believe in the existence of no gods.

If atheism is the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief whether claiming or not claiming that no gods exist, then there are two ways to be an atheist and two ways only.

The question wasn't about whether a theist could be right. The question is about whether a theist could never be wrong. In the myriad of ways there are to be a theist, they all could still be wrong. If theism only describes the cognitive state of having a theistic belief, then theists cannot be wrong about their own experience of believing a god exists.

But theists can be wrong----or right----about which god(s) are believed in.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #20]
If atheism is the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief whether claiming or not claiming that no gods exist, then there are two ways to be an atheist and two ways only.

I'll tentatively accept that conclusion for now but reserve the right to be smarter later. I'm still not sure what your point is?

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #20]
But theists can be wrong----or right----about which god(s) are believed in.

Sure. Your point is...?

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #11]

Atheism is only a claim about a person's mental state which is a rejection of theism.
Theism is the claim that at least one god is real, which is used to justify the belief in particular gods.

Do you see the difference between the two?

Yes the difference is one says something, and the other pretends to say something, and then claim they dont when proved wrong.

I have no idea how you understood that distinction from what I just wrote.
Can you elaborate?

Yes of course.

You and everyone defines theism as a "claim about reality" (that at least one god is real) and atheism as the affirmative negation of theism.

But what you are trying to do is change the definition so you have somewhere to hide when you are proven that strong atheism makes no logical sense.

So thats the trick... you said: "it is a claim about a person's mental state" but you dont lack a belief, you just pretend you do, because a person who doesnt have a belief dont make claims such as: "the biblical God "ignorant, violent, and ineffective."

Those assertions cant come from disbelief, they come from an atheist framework.

do you understand what I mean now?

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #26]

I have no idea how you understood that distinction from what I just wrote.
Can you elaborate?

Yes of course.


But what you are trying to do is change the definition so you have somewhere to hide when you are proven that strong atheism makes no logical sense.

So thats the trick... you said: "it is a claim about a person's mental state" but you dont lack a belief, you just pretend you do, because a person who doesnt have a belief dont make claims such as: "the biblical God "ignorant, violent, and ineffective."

Those assertions cant come from disbelief, they come from an atheist framework.

do you understand what I mean now?

I think I do, yes.

You are accusing me of pretending and hiding.

[Clownboat]

But what you are trying to do is change the definition so you have somewhere to hide when you are proven that strong atheism makes no logical sense.

Christianity needs foes. It helps to strengthen the community to pretend to have enemies to unite against.
This is the reason that many Christians have a hard time understanding that atheism is just lacking belief in a claim they happen believe in.

Not accepting their claim is not an enemy worth uniting against, therefore many pretend that atheism is their worthy enemy, by pretending that atheism is the contrast to theism.
That is all that is happening here. Atheism is and remains a lack of belief, but that is not acceptable to many Christians IMO for the reasons I laid out.

So thats the trick... you said: "it is a claim about a person's mental state" but you dont lack a belief, you just pretend you do, because a person who doesnt have a belief dont make claims such as: "the biblical God "ignorant, violent, and ineffective."

You obviously didn't think this through.
Read something that has an evil protagonist, like Batman. Then notice how it is possible to claim that The Joker is evil and mentally ill without needing to believe that the Batman series is literal. Your 'trick' is a fairytale.

Those assertions cant come from disbelief, they come from an atheist framework.

Christianity needs foes. It helps to strengthen the community to pretend to have enemies to unite against.
This is the reason that many Christians have a hard time understanding that atheism is just lacking belief in a claim they happen believe in.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Ray the atheist in post #22]

Yes, atheism and theism could be qualified as about beliefs, no, atheism isn't a belief.
Theism is a belief.

Theism is a claim about "Theos" or god(s).
Atheism is a claim about a mental state, i.e. a rejection of theism.

Like it or not, you have a belief about gods----namely, the belief that they don't exist.

You say that atheism is "a claim about a mental state", but that mental state is itself a belief.

[Ray the atheist]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #26]

"it is a claim about a person's mental state" but you dont lack a belief, you just pretend you do, because a person who doesnt have a belief dont make claims such as: "the biblical God "ignorant, violent, and ineffective."

I know how I describe the god of the bible.
That represents my personal opinion.

Atheism does not represent my personal opinion about the god of the bible.

I agree that when I call the god of the bible a "crazy evil wizard of great, but limited powers" that I am making claims about how the bible describes it's main character.

Those are for sure claims.

Atheism does not make claims other than that a person is skeptical of theistic claims.