God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Both are indeed in view in these three verses put together as the unit they are.

But yes, he is talking about what we should do in this life, but that is for the very purpose of making it count for eternity - ours to gain or to lose.

Not just what we should do, but what we must do - or else.

Neither the first nor the second death is immediately in view or directly referenced in Luke 9. Think about it:

• * Jesus says in verse 23, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Okay, daily, meaning every day, the assumption that there will be many days -- or at least two. So, if one is to do it daily, but physically dies that first day, he can't do it a second day (because he's no longer physically alive), right?
  
  * In addition, at the end of this passage in verse 27, He says "... there are some... who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." Some, not all, will be saved, thus no longer blind and seeing the kingdom of God, before they physically die (the first death).

So beyond the shadow of a doubt, He's only talking about what should be done to follow Him in this life. Thus, in using it as you are, you are taking it out of context.

But yes, ultimately, we will be judged according to our works -- after the first death and at the Judgment, after which is the second death for those who... don't pass. Scripture is very clear about that in multiple places. Jesus shows us a graphic picture of that in Matthew 25:31-46. And you said pretty much this exact thing in your post 325. But that's beyond the point of what Jesus is saying in Luke 9. In no way was he saying anybody will "lose temporary life by being put back to sleep, this last time, permanently," as you said in your post 294.

I sound like a broken record, I guess, but I mean it every time I say it with all sincerity: Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Well, yes, he is. But all men were and are created in His image.

We are not.

Adam (Adam and Eve; male and female) was created in the image of God.

But we are born in the image of Adam AFTER he sinned, after he ate of the Tree of Knowing Good (meaning life) and Bad (meaning death), after he received the long garment of skin (this body with sin and death in it).

We are being MADE into the image of Christ (who is Himself the image of God).

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Corinth 3:18

For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29


If we are being made into the image of Christ (who is the Image of God), then we cannot currently BE in the image of God, yes?


Peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 333 by PinSeeker]

**

2. "You seem to be accepting the description of people being "dead" ONLY as a separation from God (but still being conscious and living)... all the while ignoring death where a person is dead and buried."

No, not at all; I ignore nothing. Both are realities:

a. one being temporal/physical, yet still a separation:

i.) from the temporal for all and unconscious -- a "sleep" -- regarding the physical body, but also

ii.) from God due to lack of repentance and very conscious regarding the spirit
b. the other being eternal, also a separation, but permanent, and very conscious regarding both the physical body and the spirit, which are coexisting again post-resurrection and post-Judgment.

Pinseeker (to the bold), are you saying that you believe 'sleep' only refers to the physical body (the vessel), and not the spirit of a person? So that when Christ said, our friend Lazarus is asleep, he meant only his body, but that Lazarus, himself, was conscious in the world of the dead?


Just trying to get clarification on what you believe.



Peace to you!

[PinSeeker]

Pinseeker, are you saying that you believe 'sleep' only refers to the physical body (the vessel), and not the spirit of a person? So that when Christ said, our friend Lazarus is asleep, he meant only his body, but that Lazarus, himself, was conscious in the world of the dead?

By "(o)ur friend Lazarua has fallen asleep, " as Jesus says in John 11:11, He is acknowledging that Lazarus has physically died, as the following conversation in verses 12-14 makes clear. The same is true, as I said earlier, concerning Jairus's daughter, as we see in Mark 5 and Luke 8. Physical death is compared in several places in Scripture to a deep sleep, from which those who have died will one day be awakened (Daniel 12:2). The Old Testament equivalent is "slept with his fathers," as in, for example, 1 Kings 2:10, and throughout 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles.

The short answer to your question is yes, except that I would say, based on his relationship with Jesus before his physical death, that Lazarus had faith, was born again, and thus was saved. This being the case, yes, Lazarus himself -- his spirit, not his body, because he was physically dead -- was conscious. But rather than "in the world of the dead," Lazarus was in paradise, as assuredly the thief crucified with Jesus and on His right was that very day (after he died), as Jesus said he would be.

I can anticipate the next question: "Why, then, dear PinSeeker, did Lazarus apparently not talk or write about his experience in paradise?" Well, we don't know whether he did or not, do we?

Just trying to get clarification on what you believe.

Why? So you can start arguing again?

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Pinseeker, are you saying that you believe 'sleep' only refers to the physical body (the vessel), and not the spirit of a person? So that when Christ said, our friend Lazarus is asleep, he meant only his body, but that Lazarus, himself, was conscious in the world of the dead?

By "(o)ur friend Lazarua has fallen asleep, " as Jesus says in John 11:11, He is acknowledging that Lazarus has physically died, as the following conversation in verses 12-14 makes clear. The same is true, as I said earlier, concerning Jairus's daughter, as we see in Mark 5 and Luke 8. Physical death is compared in several places in Scripture to a deep sleep, from which those who have died will one day be awakened (Daniel 12:2). The Old Testament equivalent is "slept with his fathers," as in, for example, 1 Kings 2:10, and throughout 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles.

Okay, and those are great verses that show that the dead are asleep. But why do you think only the body sleeps, and not the spirit (the person, themselves)?

The short answer to your question is yes, except that I would say, based on his relationship with Jesus before his physical death, that Lazarus had faith, was born again, and thus was saved. This being the case, yes, Lazarus himself -- his spirit, not his body, because he was physically dead -- was conscious. But rather than "in the world of the dead," Lazarus was in paradise, as assuredly the thief crucified with Jesus and on His right was that very day (after he died), as Jesus said he would be.

I can anticipate the next question: "Why, then, dear PinSeeker, did Lazarus apparently not talk or write about his experience in paradise?" Well, we don't know whether he did or not, do we?

Well, we know that we have no record of it. But it was not my question ; )



I was just wondering why you make the distinction where sleep refers only to the body, and not to the spirit. Christ did not make that distinction. He did not just call to Lazarus' body to wake up; He called to Lazarus to wake up.

Just trying to get clarification on what you believe.

Why? So you can start arguing again?

So I can (hopefully) better help; serve. And it seems to be the reason you claim the rest of us are misunderstanding, so instead of avoiding it, I would prefer to examine it.




**

And while I have only been discussing things about your belief (since you were the only person believing in the traditional concept of hell as a place of eternal - conscious - torment); that does not mean that there are no other errors in the thread (unless I have misunderstood those posts). For instance: Hell (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) is a real place. I thought I saw it mentioned somewhere that it was not a real place.

I mean, it will be emptied out at the resurrection of the dead, and then it (along with Death, the Destroyer) will be cast into the lake of fire and be no more. If there are no more dead, and no more death, then what need for a world of the dead? So at that point, it will no longer exist, but it is a place in existence right now.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

Okay, and those are great verses that show that the dead are asleep.

No, as I said, they show physical death being compared to a deep sleep. And I do it, because that's the clear implication of Scripture, even by Jesus Himself. I'm sure you disagree. I'm good with that. If you're not, well, that's unfortunate.

Just trying to get clarification on what you believe.

Why? So you can start arguing again?

So I can (hopefully) better help; serve.

Argumentativeness is neither helpful or serving, in my humble opinion. Service and helping are spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12), while argumentativeness (strife) is rather a work of the flesh (Galatians 5) and, as such, sin. That shouldn't be a hard distinction to make.

Hell (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) is a real place.

This is good, but... well, you know, because we've been here several times before. So yeah, here it comes...

I mean, it will be emptied out at the resurrection of the dead, and then it (along with Death, the Destroyer) will be cast into the lake of fire and be no more. If there are no more dead, and no more death, then what need for a world of the dead? So at that point, it will no longer exist, but it is a place in existence right now.

You have stated this many times over now. Such is your erroneous opinion, as I have thoroughly demonstrated. Yes, I know, you think otherwise.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 345 by PinSeeker]

Argumentativeness is neither helpful or serving, in my humble opinion. Service and helping are spiritual gifts; argumentativeness is not. That shouldn't be a hard distinction to make.

So are your responses with/to Checkpoint and Myth-one also argumentative? Or is it just me for some reason who is being accused of argumentativeness?



Peace still to you.

[tam]

Peace again to you all,


Just want to add the scriptural support to the following:

I mean, it (Hades; Sheol; "Hell") will be emptied out at the resurrection of the dead,

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Rev 20:13

Hades (the world of the dead) gives up the dead in it.

See also:

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out" those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. John 5:29

and then it (along with Death, the Destroyer) will be cast into the lake of fire and be no more.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death" the lake of fire. Rev 20:14



See also (from earlier posts on this thread):

viewtopic.php?p=1000149#1000149
viewtopic.php?p=1000376#1000376
viewtopic.php?p=1000380#1000380



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Charles]

So that when Christ said, our friend Lazarus is asleep, he meant only his body, but that Lazarus, himself, was conscious in the world of the dead?

I'm pretty sure that sleep is a euphemism (a soft word) for the harsh reality of death because neither death nor sleep are permanent when we count in the resurrection.

[tam]

Peace to you Charles,

So that when Christ said, our friend Lazarus is asleep, he meant only his body, but that Lazarus, himself, was conscious in the world of the dead?

I'm pretty sure that sleep is a euphemism (a soft word) for the harsh reality of death because neither death nor sleep are permanent when we count in the resurrection.

I'm not sure it would have been about softening the truth (Christ spoke some hard truths and people accepted or refrained); but I do agree with you that both sleep and (the first) death are temporary, something a person can be awoken from. So that makes sense to me.


I cannot recall the second death ever being described as a sleep, though.



Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy