Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
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Burninglight
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Burninglight
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Post #391
That is not true and you should know that. There are many Christians that are respected scientists. That comment almost comes across as you're wanting to be insulting, because you can't gainsay what I say.A Troubled Man wrote:Yes, I understand the religiously indoctrinated cling to beliefs such as that because they have no understanding of science.Burninglight wrote:
Of course, I agree with you about your view on Islam, but I don't have the faith you have to believe all creation happened by chance with no designer.
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Burninglight
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Post #392
Using the Quran for evidence is circular reasoning. The Quran states that Allah found Muhammad astray.HaLi8993 wrote: A Troubled Man
QUOTE: "The evidence rests in the fact that there is no evidence Muhammad talked with an angel, therefore he obviously made it up himself. There is no other explanation"
ANSWER: The evidence lies in the Quran, and in what God makes evident to us. The Prophets companions testify to this also, Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) spoke to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) directly, with no barrier in between, and the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw him in his true form. This was reported in many verses of the Quran and Hadith:
God says (interpretation of the meaning):
By the star when it goes down (or vanishes).
Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.
Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.
It is only a Revelation revealed.
He has been taught (this Quraan) by one mighty in power [Jibreel (Gabriel)].
[al-Najm 53:1-5]
What is meant by one mighty in power is Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him), who taught Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) the Revelation. One of the ways in which Revelation happened is when the angel spoke directly to the Prophet (peace be upon him). This indicates that Gabriel (peace be upon him) spoke to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). This idea is also supported by the verses:
And truly, this (the Quraan) is a revelation from the Lord of the Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists),
Which the trustworthy Rooh [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought down
Upon your heart (O Muhammad) that you may be (one) of the warners,
In the plain Arabic language
[al-Shuaraa 26:192-195]
Say (O Muhammad): Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Quraan) down to your heart by Allaahs Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers
[al-Baqarah 2:97]
The First Revelation, as is well known, happened when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was in seclusion in the cave of Hiraa. Jibreel (peace be upon him) came to him and commanded him to read. It was narrated that Aaishah the Mother of the Believers (may Allaah be pleased with her) said:
The first of the Wahy (Revelation) that came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was seeing true dreams; he never saw any dream but it came true like the break of day. Then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go into seclusion in the cave of Hiraa where he would worship Allaah continuously for many nights, until he went back to see his family to collect more provisions. He would go back to Khadeejah, and take provisions with him for a similar number of nights. (This went on) until the truth came to him when he was in the cave of Hiraa. The angels came to him and said, Read! He said, I am not a reader. He [the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] said: he embraced me and squeezed me so hard that I almost could bear it no longer, then he released me and said, Read! I said, I am not a reader. Then he embraced me a second time and squeezed me so hard that I almost could bear it no longer, then he released me and said, Read! I said, I am not a reader. Then he embraced me a third time and squeezed me so hard that I almost could bear it no longer, then he released me and said, Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. [al-Alaq 96:1-3 " interpretation of the meaning]. Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back with (the Revelation) and with his heart pounding wildly. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3; Muslim, no. 231).
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A Troubled Man
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Post #393
Notice that the Islamic propagandist must resort to the Quran as evidence for the claims in the Quran and then merely goes on to regurgitate its content.HaLi8993 wrote:
ANSWER: The evidence lies in the Quran, and in what God makes evident to us. The Prophets companions testify to this also, Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him) spoke to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) directly, with no barrier in between, and the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw him in his true form. This was reported in many verses of the Quran and Hadith:
Notice the circular reasoning of how the angel spoke to Muhammad indicating an angel spoke to Muhammad.One of the ways in which Revelation happened is when the angel spoke directly to the Prophet (peace be upon him). This indicates that Gabriel (peace be upon him) spoke to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
All the above gibberish merely states an angel spoke with Muhammad while he was alone in a cave. Only a fool would believe Muhammad's story.This idea is also supported by the verses:
And truly, this (the Quraan) is a revelation from the Lord of the Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists),
Which the trustworthy Rooh [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought down
Upon your heart (O Muhammad) that you may be (one) of the warners,
In the plain Arabic language
[al-Shuaraa 26:192-195]
Say (O Muhammad): Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Quraan) down to your heart by Allaahs Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers
[al-Baqarah 2:97]
The First Revelation, as is well known, happened when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was in seclusion in the cave of Hiraa. Jibreel (peace be upon him) came to him and commanded him to read. It was narrated that Aaishah the Mother of the Believers (may Allaah be pleased with her) said:
The first of the Wahy (Revelation) that came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was seeing true dreams; he never saw any dream but it came true like the break of day. Then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go into seclusion in the cave of Hiraa where he would worship Allaah continuously for many nights, until he went back to see his family to collect more provisions. He would go back to Khadeejah, and take provisions with him for a similar number of nights. (This went on) until the truth came to him when he was in the cave of Hiraa. The angels came to him and said, Read! He said, I am not a reader. He [the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] said: he embraced me and squeezed me so hard that I almost could bear it no longer, then he released me and said, Read! I said, I am not a reader. Then he embraced me a second time and squeezed me so hard that I almost could bear it no longer, then he released me and said, Read! I said, I am not a reader. Then he embraced me a third time and squeezed me so hard that I almost could bear it no longer, then he released me and said, Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists). He has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood). Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous. [al-Alaq 96:1-3 " interpretation of the meaning]. Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back with (the Revelation) and with his heart pounding wildly. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3; Muslim, no. 231).
It was narrated from Aaishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that al-Haarith ibn Hishaam (may Allaah be pleased with him) asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), O Messenger of Allaah, how does the Revelation come to you? The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Sometimes it comes to me like the ringing of a bell, which is the hardest of all, then it passes once I have grasped what is said. And sometimes the angel comes to me in the form of a man and speaks to me, and I grasp what he says (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 2).
The lengthy hadeeth about Jibreel, when he came in the form of a man, a stranger, and sat down with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asked him about Islam, Eemaan (faith) and Ihsaan (goodness, perfection). The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) answered his questions, knowing that he was Jibreel. When he had finished asking his questions and had gone away, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told his companions that this was Jibreel, who had come to teach them their religion. See Saheeh al-Bukhaari, no. 48; Muslim, no. 9.
The reports about the Israa and Miraaj (Prophets night journey from Makkah to Jerusalem, and ascent from Jerusalem into the seven heavens). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) asked Jibreel questions, and Jibreel answered him. See Saheeh al-Bukhaari, no. 2968; Muslim, no. 238, and the ahaadeeth which tell the story of the Israa and Miraaj.
There are also many ahaadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) says, Jibreel came to me and said, such as the hadeeth in which he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Jibreel (peace be upon him) came to me and said, Whoever among your ummah (nation) dies not associating anything with Allaah, will enter Paradise. I said, Even if he does such and such? He said, Yes. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 2213; Muslim, no. 137)
When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came back from (the battle of) al-Khandaq, he and his companions put down their weapons and washed themselves. Jibreel came to him with his head covered with dust and said, You have put down your weapons! By Allaah, I have not put down mine. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, Where to? He said, Over there " and pointed towards Bani Qurayzah. So the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) set out [to resume the campaign]. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 2602; Muslim, no. 3315).
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A Troubled Man
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Post #394
I would much rather prefer some honesty from both of you.HaLi8993 wrote:
ANSWER: I think A Troubled Man has had an enormous influence on both our hearts for "citing evidence" lol I think your friend was right we need to have more patience, your absolutely correct people who are polite and have an open heart will debate in a civilized manner and avoid slandering people when unable to produce any evidence, instead they will exchange evidence with one another in a effective and intelligent manner.
Post #395
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Using the Quran for evidence is circular reasoning. The Quran states that Allah found Muhammad astray"
ANSWER: Lol, what evidence do you suggest I use, the bible??, I could do that also if you like, seeing as the coming of the Prophet (peace be upon him) has been prophesied in your own books, but of course Christians choose to ignore this, as for your link again Anti-Islamic you tube videos that don't know what there talking about and make up things to make Islam something it's not won't cut it. Nice Try!
QUOTE: "Using the Quran for evidence is circular reasoning. The Quran states that Allah found Muhammad astray"
ANSWER: Lol, what evidence do you suggest I use, the bible??, I could do that also if you like, seeing as the coming of the Prophet (peace be upon him) has been prophesied in your own books, but of course Christians choose to ignore this, as for your link again Anti-Islamic you tube videos that don't know what there talking about and make up things to make Islam something it's not won't cut it. Nice Try!
Post #396
A Troubled Man
QUOTE: "Notice that the Islamic propagandist must resort to the Quran as evidence for the claims in the Quran and then merely goes on to regurgitate its content"
ANSWER: Notice how the Evolutionist wants me to use science to prove the Quran to be true, Science that cannot even explain the reason for his existence, nor what will happen to him after his death, nor how the first humans to set foot onto the face of the earth were created, lol. Your obviously not reading properly cause the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) were witnesses
QUOTE: "Notice that the Islamic propagandist must resort to the Quran as evidence for the claims in the Quran and then merely goes on to regurgitate its content"
ANSWER: Notice how the Evolutionist wants me to use science to prove the Quran to be true, Science that cannot even explain the reason for his existence, nor what will happen to him after his death, nor how the first humans to set foot onto the face of the earth were created, lol. Your obviously not reading properly cause the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) were witnesses
Last edited by HaLi8993 on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Burninglight
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Peace
Post #399
Burninglight: Hey man!
Now back to point, as we study 1 Timothy (6:16) " Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen we find another contradiction. Who is talking here? Why describe God as whom no man has seen or can see? He should have said whom no Jew or unbeliever has seen or can see but instead the writer said no MAN. I believe the unbelievers at that time were human right?
I have two problems with your response however:
1) None of the translators of the Quran (even the non-muslim ones) have ever used the words the Best of Deceivers in the Quran, so we can easily put this claim aside as empty gossip or a lie.
2) This point that I am about to make is NOT here to justify that The Best of Deceivers is used, but instead to show you that your argument above is lacking, for the sake of argument; we are looking at the definition of the words above in relation to us, we are assuming that the party being deceived is us. That is an incorrect assumption for this context, for the sake of argument, God is deceiving the unbelievers who believe they have killed the Prophets of God (peace be upon them) NOT the believers. This point was simply argumentative and does not carry any weight further than proving your claim is faulty.
We believe the unbelievers planned against Jesus (peace be upon him) to kill him, but God planned against them, as He is the best of planners.
:
I dont even know where to start
Here is the verse in question (Surah Imran (3:54)):
Let's look at each word specifically and tackle this rationally:
or wamakaru stemming from Makr, is the verb of the word Makr. Google translate translates it as:
1) And plotted
2) And devise
3) And they plotted
4) Devised
It is describing the unbelievers that tried to plot and plan against Jesus (peace be upon him), as you have seen in the English translation.
But what we are interested in is WAllahu khair ul makireen " and the best of planners is Allah
So we should be translating khair ul makireen because WAllahu just means and Allah. In Arabic khair ul makireen is which Google translate translates this as:
1) Best of planners
2) The best of planners
3) Best of planners is
4) Best of plotters
5) The best of plotters
As you can see, when we digest each word, Google translate never gives an alternate meaning of deceive.
In fact, we can take this one step further and try to translate The Best of Deceivers into Arabic using Google translate we get:
1)
With NO alternate translations, as you can see, this isnt what is said in the Quran.
We can even translate deceive to try to get makr, this is what we get from the same site:
1) " (khada)
2) " (takhada)
3) " (tadleel)
4) " (nakhda)
Makr is nowhere to be seen.
With NO alternate translations, this isnt what is said in the Quran.
To rub it in, lets even paste the whole verse into Google Translate and see if they come up with any alternate translations:
translates into And plotted, and the plan of Allah and God the best of planners, you will not find deceive anywhere in the site. The only alternate translations change the best of planners to the best of plotters
http://translate.google.com/#ar|en|%D9% ... 6%D9%8E%20
Or if the above doesnt work:http://translate.google.com/
This is why none of the non-Muslim translators translate this verse as the best of deceivers because after they study the language honestly, they see no alternate translations for the word.
We can confidently put aside this ridiculous notion you keep bringing up stating that God is the Devil since Allah says He is the best of deceivers.
Hope this has helped man.
I have not been deceived by anyone, I simply read history and at one point in time some Christians believed in Mary as God. And who are you to decide who is true and who isnt? Have you studied Arabia at that time? Maybe their Bible was different from yours? I wouldnt be surprised.True Biblical Christians do not believe that Mary is God's mother. You have been deceived by your religion to believe this true.
No true Biblical Christians believes God consists of body, soul and spirit just like a man. God is Spirit no flesh and bones like Mormons believe. Jn 4
John (1:1) " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If the Word was Jesus, then here in John (1:1) we see that Jesus is God, and what can be more clearer than Romans (9:5)? If Jesus was God, then how is God NOT body, soul and spirit like man? Jesus ate and slept and wore clothes " like a lot of menRomans (9:5) " Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God.
Let me quote again:You have misconceptions about John 5: 37. Jesus was talking to the Jews who doubted that Jesus was a true prophet not to believers..
As a separate point, regardless of who Jesus (peace be upon him) was speaking to, he said to that group, you have not seen Gods form. Jesus was standing right in front of them I take it? So that means Jesus is not God since the Jews have not seen God according to Jesus (peace be upon him).John (5:37) " And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Now back to point, as we study 1 Timothy (6:16) " Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen we find another contradiction. Who is talking here? Why describe God as whom no man has seen or can see? He should have said whom no Jew or unbeliever has seen or can see but instead the writer said no MAN. I believe the unbelievers at that time were human right?
Thats a nice paragraph, I appreciate the effort put into it!About Allah being "the best of deceivers" Deceiver means: Synonyms: deceive, betray, mislead, beguile, delude, dupe, hoodwink, bamboozle, double-cross
These verbs mean to lead another into error, danger, or a disadvantageous position by underhand means. Deceive involves the deliberate misrepresentation of the truth: "We are inclined to believe those whom we do not know, because they have never deceived us" (Samuel Johnson).
Betray implies treachery: "When you betray somebody else, you also betray yourself" (Isaac Bashevis Singer).
Mislead means to lead in the wrong direction or into error of thought or action: "My manhood, long misled by wandering fires,/Followed false lights" (John Dryden).
Beguile suggests deceiving by means of charm or allure: They beguiled unwary investors with tales of overnight fortunes.
To delude is to mislead the mind or judgment. The government deluded the public about the dangers of low-level radiation.
Dupe implies playing upon another's susceptibilities or naivet: The shoppers were duped by false advertising.
Hoodwink refers to deluding by trickery: It is difficult to hoodwink a smart lawyer.
Bamboozle means to delude by the use of such tactics as hoaxing or artful persuasion.
If you look at schemer and plotter it is all in the same family of deception and underhanded trickery. This is what Allah has done and will do to his slaves in the end when he reveals who he really is Satan the father of all lies "The Best of Deceivers."
I have two problems with your response however:
1) None of the translators of the Quran (even the non-muslim ones) have ever used the words the Best of Deceivers in the Quran, so we can easily put this claim aside as empty gossip or a lie.
2) This point that I am about to make is NOT here to justify that The Best of Deceivers is used, but instead to show you that your argument above is lacking, for the sake of argument; we are looking at the definition of the words above in relation to us, we are assuming that the party being deceived is us. That is an incorrect assumption for this context, for the sake of argument, God is deceiving the unbelievers who believe they have killed the Prophets of God (peace be upon them) NOT the believers. This point was simply argumentative and does not carry any weight further than proving your claim is faulty.
We believe the unbelievers planned against Jesus (peace be upon him) to kill him, but God planned against them, as He is the best of planners.
Im sorry dude, let me give you a little rundown of Arabic 101 with a double major in Quranic interpretations,You are quoting English translation of that verse that are not honest. In the Arabic it is "The Best of Deceivers" In context it means "Makr" deceiver.
:I dont even know where to start
Here is the verse in question (Surah Imran (3:54)):
English: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
Both from: http://www.oneummah.net/quran/book/3.htmlArabic:
Let's look at each word specifically and tackle this rationally:
or wamakaru stemming from Makr, is the verb of the word Makr. Google translate translates it as:
1) And plotted
2) And devise
3) And they plotted
4) Devised
It is describing the unbelievers that tried to plot and plan against Jesus (peace be upon him), as you have seen in the English translation.
But what we are interested in is WAllahu khair ul makireen " and the best of planners is Allah
So we should be translating khair ul makireen because WAllahu just means and Allah. In Arabic khair ul makireen is which Google translate translates this as:
1) Best of planners
2) The best of planners
3) Best of planners is
4) Best of plotters
5) The best of plotters
As you can see, when we digest each word, Google translate never gives an alternate meaning of deceive.
In fact, we can take this one step further and try to translate The Best of Deceivers into Arabic using Google translate we get:
1)
With NO alternate translations, as you can see, this isnt what is said in the Quran.
We can even translate deceive to try to get makr, this is what we get from the same site:
1) " (khada)
2) " (takhada)
3) " (tadleel)
4) " (nakhda)
Makr is nowhere to be seen.
With NO alternate translations, this isnt what is said in the Quran.
To rub it in, lets even paste the whole verse into Google Translate and see if they come up with any alternate translations:
translates into And plotted, and the plan of Allah and God the best of planners, you will not find deceive anywhere in the site. The only alternate translations change the best of planners to the best of plotters
http://translate.google.com/#ar|en|%D9% ... 6%D9%8E%20
Or if the above doesnt work:http://translate.google.com/
This is why none of the non-Muslim translators translate this verse as the best of deceivers because after they study the language honestly, they see no alternate translations for the word.
We can confidently put aside this ridiculous notion you keep bringing up stating that God is the Devil since Allah says He is the best of deceivers.
As I have shown you, when the Bible is read with an open mind, one can always question its parables. For goodness sake Christians dont even have a clear answer for: Is Jesus God, or the Son of God? We could debate this for days.You are obviously being obtuse and out smarting yourself by mine quoting from the Bible and trying to twist Scripture to say what you want by reading out of context. This is all part of scheming and deception. You are to just like your god who is no God at all or Creator.
To be frank, this sounds kind of childish. I wont even try and debate such an unprofessional point; I can literally debate every concept in your sentence.Even Allah outsmarted himself by deceiving people to believe Jesus died starting a religion more powerful and larger than Islam lol
Hope this has helped man.
Post #400
Burninglight
QUOTE: "So why did Allah start Christianity if he didn't want Muslims following it?"
ANSWER: Allah didn't start modern day Christianity, Allah revealed the Injeel (Gospel) just as he had revealed the Torah, for a specific reason, every time a nation diverged from the worship of One God, they were sent Prophets and Messengers guiding them back to the worship of a Monotheistic faith, the people at that time that followed the true teachings of the Torah and Gospel would have passed the test and will be in Paradise, God willing, however after these scriptures came, God chose Islam as the ultimate religion for all of mankind not for a specific group of people. Hence Christians are obliged to follow Islam as it is the last and final revelation from God which is in confirmation of previous scriptures.
QUOTE: "So why did Allah start Christianity if he didn't want Muslims following it?"
ANSWER: Allah didn't start modern day Christianity, Allah revealed the Injeel (Gospel) just as he had revealed the Torah, for a specific reason, every time a nation diverged from the worship of One God, they were sent Prophets and Messengers guiding them back to the worship of a Monotheistic faith, the people at that time that followed the true teachings of the Torah and Gospel would have passed the test and will be in Paradise, God willing, however after these scriptures came, God chose Islam as the ultimate religion for all of mankind not for a specific group of people. Hence Christians are obliged to follow Islam as it is the last and final revelation from God which is in confirmation of previous scriptures.
