If the Christian God is just

[SomePunk]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

So no one has to believe in god or follow any one religion to be saved and that means no one needs a savior. Which means religion isnt needed because it doesnt serve a purpose.

Am I right?

[spayne]

Well, when I asked for evidence for God, I get snippy reply's, and nothing that can be examined to see if it IS evidence for God.

Your response to my point , and the repeated pattern from ALL believers is my evidence there is no evidence for God.

Christians are offering really compelling evidence for the existence of God all over this forum, so I don't think it is accurate to say that you are just getting snippy replys and nothing that can be examined.

Where is this? Can you point to a specific post. Please remember that 'ARGUMENTS ARE NOT EVIDENCE'.

Point to one of these posts that offer 'compelling evidence'.

Or, for that matter, anything that is evidence at all. I have seen plenty of logical fallacies.. but I have yet to see any evidence, much less 'compelling evidence'.

I guess you aren't going to address my primary point: you are arguing that there is no evidence whatsover for the existence of God...and refusing to provide any support for that.

I am curious about something though: why do you care so much what Christians think about God? You claim to not believe in God, you claim there is no evidence, but yet you seem really engaged in a search for something that will convince you. Why is that?

I believe, personally, that you know in your heart that God is real, and are choosing not to trust that intuition. And so you look to the Christians to give you something measurable that will help you validate that feeling so that you too can believe. Believing in God is not about finding evidence for a claim. It's about finding joy, and peace, and a love that surpasses all human understanding of the world. Do you want that?

[Adamoriens]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

So no one has to believe in god or follow any one religion to be saved and that means no one needs a savior. Which means religion isnt needed because it doesnt serve a purpose.

Am I right?

A more interesting question is whether, given the existence of inculpable nonbelievers, we have a good reason to think that God does not exist. Doesn't the existence of honest and willing nonbelievers count against the existence of a God who wishes to enter into a relationship with all humans? Could this rationally figure as a personal reason to reject the existence of God?

[spayne]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

So no one has to believe in god or follow any one religion to be saved and that means no one needs a savior. Which means religion isnt needed because it doesnt serve a purpose.

Am I right?

A more interesting question is whether, given the existence of inculpable nonbelievers, we have a good reason to think that God does not exist. Doesn't the existence of honest and willing nonbelievers count against the existence of a God who wishes to enter into a relationship with all humans? Could this rationally figure as a personal reason to reject the existence of God?

This is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from other religions and makes it so fascinating. Everyone seems honest and "inculpable" when you compare yourself to other people. But in the Bible our "goodness" is compared to the perfect holiness of God, and so we therefore fall short, both believers and nonbelievers alike. God very much wants to enter into a personal relationship with us. And that's where Jesus comes in. He bridges the gap between the holiness of God and the unholiness of people, so that our relationship to God can be restored.

1 Corinthians 5:21 says: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And this is one of the essential messages of the Bible, that God is both just and loving. He is just because he condemns all acts of unlawfulness, and He is loving because he takes on the punishment for us! All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we receive a full pardon.

[Goat]

Then that means the Christian God forgives people for not believing in him or her or it.

So no one has to believe in god or follow any one religion to be saved and that means no one needs a savior. Which means religion isnt needed because it doesnt serve a purpose.

Am I right?

A more interesting question is whether, given the existence of inculpable nonbelievers, we have a good reason to think that God does not exist. Doesn't the existence of honest and willing nonbelievers count against the existence of a God who wishes to enter into a relationship with all humans? Could this rationally figure as a personal reason to reject the existence of God?

This is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from other religions and makes it so fascinating. Everyone seems honest and "inculpable" when you compare yourself to other people. But in the Bible our "goodness" is compared to the perfect holiness of God, and so we therefore fall short, both believers and nonbelievers alike. God very much wants to enter into a personal relationship with us. And that's where Jesus comes in. He bridges the gap between the holiness of God and the unholiness of people, so that our relationship to God can be restored.

1 Corinthians 5:21 says: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And this is one of the essential messages of the Bible, that God is both just and loving. He is just because he condemns all acts of unlawfulness, and He is loving because he takes on the punishment for us! All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we receive a full pardon.

And how is 'believe in me, and I'll let you go to heaven' and 'if you don't you go to hell' just and holy? How is 'hell' just at all. and how is insisting your son die in a horrible manner 'loving'?

How is condemning the honest 'unbeliever' to hell loving too?

[Goat]

Well, when I asked for evidence for God, I get snippy reply's, and nothing that can be examined to see if it IS evidence for God.

Your response to my point , and the repeated pattern from ALL believers is my evidence there is no evidence for God.

Christians are offering really compelling evidence for the existence of God all over this forum, so I don't think it is accurate to say that you are just getting snippy replys and nothing that can be examined.

Where is this? Can you point to a specific post. Please remember that 'ARGUMENTS ARE NOT EVIDENCE'.

Point to one of these posts that offer 'compelling evidence'.

Or, for that matter, anything that is evidence at all. I have seen plenty of logical fallacies.. but I have yet to see any evidence, much less 'compelling evidence'.

I guess you aren't going to address my primary point: you are arguing that there is no evidence whatsover for the existence of God...and refusing to provide any support for that.

I am curious about something though: why do you care so much what Christians think about God? You claim to not believe in God, you claim there is no evidence, but yet you seem really engaged in a search for something that will convince you. Why is that?

Now, I did address there is no evidence what so ever. I pointed out your attitude , and the fact that no claims of evidence put forth by Christians held up to scrutiny is evidence there is no evidence for God. You immedately said 'there is compelling evidence on this forum', I asked' where is it',, and got the very expected evasive answer.

Now, I have said nothing about what you believe or not. I specifically am addressing 'What is the the claims, what is the evidence for those claims' and asked to look at the evidence. I don't care that someone does or does not believe in God. I am more interested in examining the process , and examining the process There are claims I will challenge, because I see those claims not to be well thought out.

However , you will not see me trying to convince you there is no God. I will be just challenging your logical steps and claims for evidence there IS one. There are those people on this forum that are people of faith that purely admit that their faith is their faith. You will not see me challenge those people on that ground. I might challenge a specific claim about their faith, if that claim impacts people outside of their faith, if they want to impose that value upon others.. and it negatively impacts other members of society.

I believe, personally, that you know in your heart that God is real, and are choosing not to trust that intuition.

This is the argument of 'personal belief', and projecting what you believe onto others. I do not have any concept that 'God is real' what so ever. I , for a while , tried to go the pantheist route, but in the end, I could not emotionally justify it. For me, the mystical route also does not meet my emotional needs, because the question always comes up in my mind is 'why call it God'. So, I can safely say that your projection onto my motivations , feelings and beliefs is 100% incorrect.

And so you look to the Christians to give you something measurable that will help you validate that feeling so that you too can believe. Believing in God is not about finding evidence for a claim. It's about finding joy, and peace, and a love that surpasses all human understanding of the world. Do you want that?

That's a big claim. It sounds like an emotional response, and the logical fallacy known as 'argument from personal belief'. I want facts and I was reality. I do not see a case of 'finding joy, love and peace beyond human understanding of the world' to be anything more than an appeal to emotion. .. and I have joy , peace and love in my life already.

[Adamoriens]

This is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from other religions and makes it so fascinating. Everyone seems honest and "inculpable" when you compare yourself to other people. But in the Bible our "goodness" is compared to the perfect holiness of God, and so we therefore fall short, both believers and nonbelievers alike. God very much wants to enter into a personal relationship with us. And that's where Jesus comes in. He bridges the gap between the holiness of God and the unholiness of people, so that our relationship to God can be restored.

1 Corinthians 5:21 says: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And this is one of the essential messages of the Bible, that God is both just and loving. He is just because he condemns all acts of unlawfulness, and He is loving because he takes on the punishment for us! All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we receive a full pardon.

By "inculpable nonbeliever" I do not mean atheists who are innocent of sin, merely those who haven't consciously rejected God and yet fail to believe.

[spayne]

This is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from other religions and makes it so fascinating. Everyone seems honest and "inculpable" when you compare yourself to other people. But in the Bible our "goodness" is compared to the perfect holiness of God, and so we therefore fall short, both believers and nonbelievers alike. God very much wants to enter into a personal relationship with us. And that's where Jesus comes in. He bridges the gap between the holiness of God and the unholiness of people, so that our relationship to God can be restored.

1 Corinthians 5:21 says: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And this is one of the essential messages of the Bible, that God is both just and loving. He is just because he condemns all acts of unlawfulness, and He is loving because he takes on the punishment for us! All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we receive a full pardon.

By "inculpable nonbeliever" I do not mean atheists who are innocent of sin, merely those who haven't consciously rejected God and yet fail to believe.

Atheists who are innocent of sin... He he. Thank you that made me laugh.

That's a log tougher. Are you speaking of people who have never had access to the Bible or the message of Christianity? Or are you speaking of the person who just never really came to the decision...who put it off for any number of reasons?

In the first example, there are many testimonies of people in remote, unreached areas coming to the revelation of Jesus being the Son of God even though they have never read the Bible or talked with a Christian. There are countless stories like this, where people state that they learned of Jesus through dreams and visions. I have met people who came to Christ like this.

In the second example, the Bible actually has a lot to say about the person who waits to make a decision. I hate to just throw around Bible verses but that's the best way I know how to communicate my own views on this as a Christian.
The Bible implies that everyone can "see" God, and so nobody can be excused out of their own lack of awareness. Romans 1:20 says: "For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.".

I think one of the lessons that some people struggle with is that the responsibility ultimately falls on us. And the Bible encourages everyone to not put off that decision, because we do not know what tomorrow will bring.

[Goat]

This is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from other religions and makes it so fascinating. Everyone seems honest and "inculpable" when you compare yourself to other people. But in the Bible our "goodness" is compared to the perfect holiness of God, and so we therefore fall short, both believers and nonbelievers alike. God very much wants to enter into a personal relationship with us. And that's where Jesus comes in. He bridges the gap between the holiness of God and the unholiness of people, so that our relationship to God can be restored.

1 Corinthians 5:21 says: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And this is one of the essential messages of the Bible, that God is both just and loving. He is just because he condemns all acts of unlawfulness, and He is loving because he takes on the punishment for us! All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we receive a full pardon.

By "inculpable nonbeliever" I do not mean atheists who are innocent of sin, merely those who haven't consciously rejected God and yet fail to believe.

Atheists who are innocent of sin... He he. Thank you that made me laugh.

That's a log tougher. Are you speaking of people who have never had access to the Bible or the message of Christianity? Or are you speaking of the person who just never really came to the decision...who put it off for any number of reasons?

In the first example, there are many testimonies of people in remote, unreached areas coming to the revelation of Jesus being the Son of God even though they have never read the Bible or talked with a Christian. There are countless stories like this, where people state that they learned of Jesus through dreams and visions. I have met people who came to Christ like this.

In the second example, the Bible actually has a lot to say about the person who waits to make a decision. I hate to just throw around Bible verses but that's the best way I know how to communicate my own views on this as a Christian.
The Bible implies that everyone can "see" God, and so nobody can be excused out of their own lack of awareness. Romans 1:20 says: "For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.".

I think one of the lessons that some people struggle with is that the responsibility ultimately falls on us. And the Bible encourages everyone to not put off that decision, because we do not know what tomorrow will bring.

The bible says many things. What I personally do not see is that when it comes to metaphysical and spiritual claims, the bible speaks the truth. For example, I do not see claim there is spiritual 'salvation' to be either loving, merciful, logical, or real. .. or for that matter, just.

The bible 'Not putting off that decision' to me sounds like the stick approach to religion 'You better believe or else'.

[spayne]

And how is 'believe in me, and I'll let you go to heaven' and 'if you don't you go to hell' just and holy? How is 'hell' just at all. and how is insisting your son die in a horrible manner 'loving'?

How is condemning the honest 'unbeliever' to hell loving too?

It wasn't insisting at all. Jesus was very clear that he was choosing to die the death that he did, and that this in fact, is an expression of the amazing love that God has for people, including you. As it says in John 10:17-18 - Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. Jesus chose to die to reconcile God to everyone who chooses to believe.


And as far as condeming people to hell, I would again refer to John, where Jesus lays out the condition of mankind and the reason why it was necessary that he die:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

This is admittedly a hard passage, because humans are full of pride and so we naturally think that we are good. But as stated before, the Bible is very clear that only God is truly good, because he is holy.

Finally I think it is also important to point out that heaven (if you believe in such a place) is a gift, not a reward for good behavior. And the amazing thing about it is that it's so easy to get there. All you have to do is believe in the One who God sent.

[Keef]

I've sat and waded through this thread. I've found it very frustrating, for several reasons:
1. There's an awful lot of quoting, with very little in the way of reply to the text quoted.
2. Some folk have very long "footers" or "signatures" which get in the way of following the discussion.
3. The discussion seems to go round and round in circles and not get very far.

I suppose the third point is inevitable when Christians debate with Atheists and Agnostics. But the signal-to-noise ratio took up a lot of my time unscrambling duplicated stuff. I didn't find an answer that would "do" for me.

So may I try to answer the original question?

We don't know the mind of God. We know only what we have in the Scriptures - whether or not we accept them.
If you accept them, then the New Testament makes it clear that God loves you, and wants the best for you. He asks in return that you believe in him.
If you don't accept them, and don't believe in him, then the relationship ends there.
If you don't believe in an afterlife (or whatever you'd like to call it), then you won't care.

If you believe in an afterlife but not in God, then you have some more research to do.

If you aren't sure whether or not you believe in God, then you also have some more research to do.

I come at this from a position of a lifetime wrestling with the Bible, and some long times spent talking with very wise people. There is historical evidence, and literary and linguistic analysis, that provides some evidence. That is, however, not enough to convince the average thinking person that the Bible is undoubtedly true.

However, a lifetime of working at it builds up a relationship with the subject and witth God, and an insight into the lives of other people and how he has influenced them. I see my friend Paul in the local city, providing comfort and support to young people out on the street late at night in parlous conditions. He and his colleagues do that only because of their Christian commitment. Nobody else is there doing it. The local police are amazed at the effect these few Town Pastors have.

"By their fruits shall you know them", Jesus said. Yes, I see their fruits.

That is the point at which I can say "Now I believe". I still don't KNOW, but I believe.