Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.
Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.
By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.
It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.
And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.
Religion is Placebo
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Post #51
After reading many many threads and trying a few myself I came to the conclusion that you can never convince anyone that what they believe is wrong, if you don't argue away the original reason they came to that belief. Nobody came to believe in God because of the second rule of thermodynamics. They're rationalizing.
If what they believe is mathematical, then you would have to use math to prove them wrong.
If what they believe is Geographical, then you would have to use a map to prove them wrong.
And if what they believe is faith based, then you have to show them how their faith can be... misplaced.
If you believe in a creator, but have never had contact with that creator, your faith is not in that creator, but rather, in the people who told you about that creator.
Likewise, placebo works because you have faith in the person administering the placebo.
I'm not making any judgement on placebo, or whether it should work, or the people are given it. Placebo is fact. Placebo is neither good nor bad. But a sugar pill is a sugar pill. Any pain killing that is achieved is done inside your head, by you. Not God. There is no God
If what they believe is mathematical, then you would have to use math to prove them wrong.
If what they believe is Geographical, then you would have to use a map to prove them wrong.
And if what they believe is faith based, then you have to show them how their faith can be... misplaced.
If you believe in a creator, but have never had contact with that creator, your faith is not in that creator, but rather, in the people who told you about that creator.
Likewise, placebo works because you have faith in the person administering the placebo.
I'm not making any judgement on placebo, or whether it should work, or the people are given it. Placebo is fact. Placebo is neither good nor bad. But a sugar pill is a sugar pill. Any pain killing that is achieved is done inside your head, by you. Not God. There is no God
Post #52
Lets take money for example. What makes a $20 bill worth $20? It's size? The contents of the bill? No. What makes everyone agree that a $20 bill is worth $20? A $20 bill is worth $20 because we all agree it's worth $20. I agree that it's worth $20 because I have faith that the next guy will agree that it's worth $20. However that faith has grown over 13 years of using $20 bills. I have no faith in God because I have no experience with him. He hasn't made the necessary effort.
Re: Religion is Placebo
Post #54If there is a Creator, and you and I are products of His creation, then that is our experience. Does the color blue not exist because a color blind person can't 'see' it?Mr.Badham wrote:Placebo administered through injection is more effective than placebo administered through pill form.
Placebo administered by someone dressed as a doctor is more effective than placebo administered by someone dressed as a nurse.
By that rationale, placebo administered by what you believe to be the creator of the universe could explain any personal experience you have ever had with said creator.
It doesn't matter that an actor dressed like a doctor injected you with a saline solution, you'll feel better. With that said, tell me something that has happened to you personally, that I cannot explain away as placebo.
And here's some homework for you. If you haven't had any experiences with the creator, ask yourself why you believe in him. It might be someone else's experience with placebo.
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Goat
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Re: Religion is Placebo
Post #55It is showing that there is a 'creator' that is the issue. Can you demonstrate with semitropical evidence that not only is there a creator, but there is only one creator, and that he /she/it intentionally created mankind?Dokimas wrote: If there is a Creator, and you and I are products of His creation, then that is our experience. Does the color blue not exist because a color blind person can't 'see' it?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Re: Religion is Placebo
Post #56There's tons of information out there (which, no boubt you've read and rejected) that has brought me to the point where believing in a Creator takes less faith than believing all we see is here by chance.Goat wrote:It is showing that there is a 'creator' that is the issue. Can you demonstrate with semitropical evidence that not only is there a creator, but there is only one creator, and that he /she/it intentionally created mankind?Dokimas wrote: If there is a Creator, and you and I are products of His creation, then that is our experience. Does the color blue not exist because a color blind person can't 'see' it?
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Goat
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Re: Religion is Placebo
Post #57Well, there are a lot of contradictory claims out there. However, this forum has a rule that a claim has to be supported by evidence of reason. Making another claim that is not supported isn't backing up our claim.Dokimas wrote:There's tons of information out there (which, no boubt you've read and rejected) that has brought me to the point where believing in a Creator takes less faith than believing all we see is here by chance.Goat wrote:It is showing that there is a 'creator' that is the issue. Can you demonstrate with semitropical evidence that not only is there a creator, but there is only one creator, and that he /she/it intentionally created mankind?Dokimas wrote: If there is a Creator, and you and I are products of His creation, then that is our experience. Does the color blue not exist because a color blind person can't 'see' it?
Wel,l th
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #58
It's not about what you believe, it's about why you believe. Why you reject the religions you reject and why you accept whatever "information" it is that you accept.
The placebo effect simply shows how faith works, and why faith is not evidence. If you took a placebo and felt better, it has nothing to do with the placebo, but rather how you feel about taking the placebo.
If you pray and feel better, it's not because there is a god out there listening and caring. It's because you feel good about praying. Whatever you feel, comes from within yourself.
The biggest problem that any religion has, is explaining why people of other religions can make identical claims involving faith. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pray the same prayers. "God please help me". They can make the same claims and feel the same effects, because they are exactly the same. It's a people thing, not a god thing.
The placebo effect simply shows how faith works, and why faith is not evidence. If you took a placebo and felt better, it has nothing to do with the placebo, but rather how you feel about taking the placebo.
If you pray and feel better, it's not because there is a god out there listening and caring. It's because you feel good about praying. Whatever you feel, comes from within yourself.
The biggest problem that any religion has, is explaining why people of other religions can make identical claims involving faith. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pray the same prayers. "God please help me". They can make the same claims and feel the same effects, because they are exactly the same. It's a people thing, not a god thing.
Post #59
Looking at the surface, what vs why of religions, I'd agree all religions (and I put atheism in that catagory too) are the same. However, below the surface of the different 'beliefs' there's quite a difference, therefore the 'what' is extremely important, IMO.Mr.Badham wrote:It's not about what you believe, it's about why you believe. Why you reject the religions you reject and why you accept whatever "information" it is that you accept.
The placebo effect simply shows how faith works, and why faith is not evidence. If you took a placebo and felt better, it has nothing to do with the placebo, but rather how you feel about taking the placebo.
If you pray and feel better, it's not because there is a god out there listening and caring. It's because you feel good about praying. Whatever you feel, comes from within yourself.
The biggest problem that any religion has, is explaining why people of other religions can make identical claims involving faith. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pray the same prayers. "God please help me". They can make the same claims and feel the same effects, because they are exactly the same. It's a people thing, not a god thing.
Your understanding of 'religion' is incomplete if you think that all that's involved in a religion is 'praying for things the person wants or thinks is needed'.
Please explain what claims you are speaking about that you say are identical in all religions?
Re: Religion is Placebo
Post #60Would you care to substantiate this claim? Suggesting there is tons of information out there doesn't validate your position. It only suggests one can do your research for you. The burden of proof is on you if you are to make a claim of such substantial information that one has supposedly read and rejected but has convinced you that believing in a creator takes less faith than believing in chance.Dokimas wrote:There's tons of information out there (which, no boubt you've read and rejected) that has brought me to the point where believing in a Creator takes less faith than believing all we see is here by chance.Goat wrote:It is showing that there is a 'creator' that is the issue. Can you demonstrate with semitropical evidence that not only is there a creator, but there is only one creator, and that he /she/it intentionally created mankind?Dokimas wrote: If there is a Creator, and you and I are products of His creation, then that is our experience. Does the color blue not exist because a color blind person can't 'see' it?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
