meaning of clouds

[dio9]

Dan. 7:13 "As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a human being coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One and was presented before him."

Do you think this inspired the idea meeting the lord in the air on the last days?
Clouds are really used as a metaphor .
Jeremiah used clouds to describe the coming of the king of Assyria, 4:13 "Look! He comes up like clouds, his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles" woe to us, for we are ruined!"

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]





[center]
When is a human not a human?
Why, when it's a pre-human, of course !!

Part One[/center]

Jesus, I believe is the only human ever to have a pre-human existence being the "firstborn of all creation" (the first thing God created) and identified by John as "The Word" he (Jesus) existed before the earth the universe, or any other spirit creature.

Making him (after his Father Jehovah) the oldest being in existence.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  I wonder why the people who wrote Genesis forgot to mention Jesus?
  Weird, huh?
  
  

____________

[tam]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]





[center]
When is a human not a human?
Why, when it's a pre-human, of course !!

Part One[/center]

Jesus, I believe is the only human ever to have a pre-human existence being the "firstborn of all creation" (the first thing God created) and identified by John as "The Word" he (Jesus) existed before the earth the universe, or any other spirit creature.

Making him (after his Father Jehovah) the oldest being in existence.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  I wonder why the people who wrote Genesis forgot to mention Jesus?
  Weird, huh?
  
  

____________

Are you sure they did forget to mention Him? He does go by many titles - the Amen, the Faithful and True Servant, the Truth, the Word, the Way, the Holy One of Jah, the Messiah/Christ... the Life.


Aka... the tree of LIFE.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ, the (tree of) Life,
tammy

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 52 by tam]


[center]Jesus by any other name BUT Jesus[/center]

Are you sure they did forget to mention Him? He does go by many titles - the Amen, the Faithful and True Servant, the Truth, the Word, the Way, the Holy One of Jah, the Messiah/Christ... the Life.


Aka... the tree of LIFE.

Yeah, oddly enough, they didn't think of using the weird title "Jesus" to mean "Jesus".
Everything BUT Jesus, apparently.


When do we know when they are talking about Jesus? Why, when they don't call him "Jesus", of course !


Did they ever use "the tree of life" as a title for Jesus... AFTER the Genesis books, do you figure?

[tam]

[Replying to post 52 by tam]


[center]Jesus by any other name BUT Jesus[/center]

Are you sure they did forget to mention Him? He does go by many titles - the Amen, the Faithful and True Servant, the Truth, the Word, the Way, the Holy One of Jah, the Messiah/Christ... the Life.


Aka... the tree of LIFE.

Yeah, oddly enough, they didn't think of using the weird title "Jesus" to mean "Jesus".
Everything BUT Jesus, apparently.


When do we know when they are talking about Jesus? Why, when they don't call him "Jesus", of course !


Did they ever use "the tree of life" as a title for Jesus... AFTER the Genesis books, do you figure?

The author of Genesis would not have used 'Jesus' as that is not a title or even the name that Christ was given. But He is described as being the LIFE. From whom we must 'eat' if we wish to HAVE life.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:56-58

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh." John 6:51




Are there two different sources of eternal life that God has given us, according to Christ?

Or just the One?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Monta]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]

Do you think there was a need for a savior redeemer before the world existed ? Something like a fix before the fall? If so it would seem God didn't have faith in humanity. The deck was stacked against us.

If God did not have faith in humanity He would not have created it.
The deck was not stacked agianst us, we were created perfect, not divine perfect but human perfect. God can not create others equal to himself and if he were to do so, they'd all be united and be ONE anyway and He'd be even more Omnipotent which is contrary to reason.
Saviour was foreseen and provided.

[William]

God can not create others equal to himself and if he were to do so, they'd all be united and be ONE anyway and He'd be even more Omnipotent which is contrary to reason.
Saviour was foreseen and provided.

Please expand on this idea.

Why would this idea of God be MORE omnipotent if he created all others equal to himself? Are you suggesting that the reason god created others is so that those others would be less equal than him?

And that as a consequence of that, everything that happens to others is because of that decision?

Wouldn't it have been more logical to treat others as equals rather than to demand they worship him as more than they could possibly be because he created them like that...for that purpose?

Logic tells us and example shows us that when we treat others as equals (rather than lording it over them and demanding worship and praise and tribute etc) that we are more likely to cooperate and succeed with those others...(win win) just as the opposite teaches us we are more likely to rebel and turn away from such demands. (lose lose)

That idea of God is illogical. An apprentice god perhaps. But a real GOD??

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 54 by tam]




[center]The name of Jesus is not Jesus
Part Two[/center]

The author of Genesis would not have used 'Jesus' as that is not a title or even the name that Christ was given.

"Jesus was not name that Christ was given"?

Was it "George"?



My point was that the word "Jesus" isn't found in Genesis.


I think that you agree... I think that you said Jesus was called a tree.

If there was a guy called "Jesus" in English translation, it would have been quite easy for the author ( s ) of Genesis to just use the name even ONCE.

They could have put in a passage that said something like : "Oh, by the way, a savior called "Jesus" is going to come back to save mankind ( and maybe even womankind ) in a few thousand years, so watch out of that guy called "Jesus".

I think though, that the authors of Genesis would have wrote that WAY more poetically than I just did. But.. they didn't.

But He is described as being the LIFE. From whom we must 'eat' if we wish to HAVE life.

Oddly, in the New Testament, the name that is given to the main character is "Jesus", not "LIFE".

You say that Jesus is described as the LIFE in big capital letters. And then you say that Jesus is described as a tree. My only little itsy bitsy point was that they never made the connection between JESUS and anything. You are making that connection.

But the connection between the "LIFE" and Jesus is not spelled out in Genesis.

MY POINT, tam, was that they didn't mention his name.

I think, tam, that if you are seeing Jesus mentioned in Genesis.. you are imagining things, or reading another kind of Bible.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Is the word "Jesus" mentioned in Genesis, YES or NO?
  
  

____________

[tam]

[Replying to post 57 by Blastcat]

Blastcat, why would I defend a position that I did not take? I never said that His name was mentioned in Genesis, did I? I said that He has many titles, one of those titles being LIFE. I also said that He and the tree of Life serve exactly the same purpose.

Then my question to you was, 'Are you SURE that they forgot to mention Him in Genesis?"

Not by name, but by one of His titles.


And in the NT, He certainly is called the Branch, the Vine, the Root of Jesse, the Light, the Truth, the Resurrection, the Word, the Amen, the Way, the Life, and other things as well.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 58 by tam]


[center]The name of Jesus is not Jesus

Part Three:
Hit me baby, one more time[/center]

Blastcat, why would I defend a position that I did not take? I never said that His name was mentioned in Genesis, did I? I said that He has many titles, one of those titles being LIFE. I also said that He and the tree of Life serve exactly the same purpose.

A title isn't a name.. it's a title.. I wasn't at all talking about titles we might like to give Jesus but the NAME "Jesus". We have NO idea exactly WHO this "LIFE" is supposed to BE. What is the name of the GUY has the title "life"? We aren't told.

• Is the NAME "Jesus" found anywhere at all in Genesis ?

The guy with the title "LIFE" could have been called "George", for all we know.


You may think that Jesus is your "LIFE" or whatever, but that doesn't mean that the Genesis authors were saying that Jesus is who they are talking about that has the title "life". That's maybe a later invention. It's not something that is spelled out in Genesis, though.

Then my question to you was, 'Are you SURE that they forgot to mention Him in Genesis?"

Not by name, but by one of His titles.

Yeah, I got the rhetorical question, about titles, tam.

But you seem to miss the point that they didn't mention the NAME Jesus in Genesis. So, maybe the TITLES in Genesis are about someone else than "Jesus" of the Gospels. Who KNOWS?

• We don't know because THEY DON'T SAY.

But of course, you can believe anything that you like.
Your guess is as good as mine.

And in the NT, He certainly is called the Branch, the Vine, the Root of Jesse, the Light, the Truth, the Resurrection, the Word, the Amen, the Way, the Life, and other things as well.

Sure, why not call Jesus anything and everything that sounds good?
The Gospel is a PRO JESUS book, so we should expect to find compliments about him.

They aren't going to call him the "Serpent" and "evil".. because that would be ANTI JESUS.

So, if the NT has lovely titles for Jesus, that's because they had a particular vocab for that.. a particularly JEWISH vocab.

Remember, that the NT came a bit after the OT.. so they can mimic the OT all they like. They can call Jesus anything they like, and you can call Jesus anything you like, too. Heck, when it comes right down to it, we can all call Jesus anything we like.

But they either DID mention Jesus in Genesis or they did NOT.

So, just so we can be perfectly clear about this and put this NAME controversy to rest, I ask you this very simple question ONE MORE TIME, tam:

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Is the name "Jesus" mentioned in Genesis, YES or NO?
  
  

____________

[tam]

A title isn't a name.. it's a title.. I wasn't at all talking about titles we might like to give Jesus but the NAME "Jesus".

You weren't talking about titles.

I was talking about titles. Because Christ is identified by titles as well. That was my point.

We have NO idea exactly WHO this "LIFE" is supposed to BE.

Of course we do.

I am the Resurrection and the Life.

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.


If you are asking if people knew before Christ came and explained it, then I would say that many did NOT know. But that doesn't mean that the author of the Genesis did not know.

What is the name of the GUY has the title "life"? We aren't told.

Yes, we are. See above.

• Is the NAME "Jesus" found anywhere at all in Genesis ?

No, and I never said it was.

The guy with the title "LIFE" could have been called "George", for all we know.

Christ is clearly called the Life.

You may think that Jesus is your "LIFE" or whatever, but that doesn't mean that the Genesis authors were saying that Jesus is who they are talking about that has the title "life".

Are you sure that there is more than one Genesis author?

Regardless, my point to YOU was are YOU sure that 'they' did not mention Him, in light of what Christ taught?

That's maybe a later invention.

Or a later understanding of a truth that may (or may not) have been known by the original author of Genesis.

It's not something that is spelled out in Genesis, though.

No, its not spelled out in Genesis. But in what other area of life do you ignore further evidence as it becomes available?

Then my question to you was, 'Are you SURE that they forgot to mention Him in Genesis?"

Not by name, but by one of His titles.

Yeah, I got the rhetorical question, about titles, tam.

How was it rhetorical?

But you seem to miss the point that they didn't mention the NAME Jesus in Genesis.

I did not miss it. They did not mention His name (that I know of) in Genesis.

But are you not missing the point that He could have been mentioned by one of many titles?

After all, the tree of life does the exact same thing that the LIFE (Christ) does: grants eternal life.

So, maybe the TITLES in Genesis are about someone else than "Jesus" of the Gospels. Who KNOWS?

If you are just studying Genesis with no other information, then you might not know. But why would you ignore evidence outside of Genesis if you are trying to understand that book?

Why would you isolate one piece of evidence from all others and refuse to let other evidence shed light on the first piece? That would be like looking at one piece of a puzzle and saying, well, who KNOWS what this piece of the puzzle is supposed to be? Lets not look at the other pieces for clarity. Lets just go by this one piece, and if we can't figure it out by this one piece, well, then 'your guess is as good as mine.'

And in the NT, He certainly is called the Branch, the Vine, the Root of Jesse, the Light, the Truth, the Resurrection, the Word, the Amen, the Way, the Life, and other things as well.

Sure, why not call Jesus anything and everything that sounds good?

This has nothing to do with my point.

So, if the NT has lovely titles for Jesus, that's because they had a particular vocab for that.. a particularly JEWISH vocab.

Remember, that the NT came a bit after the OT.. so they can mimic the OT all they like. They can call Jesus anything they like, and you can call Jesus anything you like, too. Heck, when it comes right down to it, we can all call Jesus anything we like.

I shared with you the titles and descriptions given to Christ according to what is written, and according to what Christ is written to have said.

But they either DID mention Jesus in Genesis or they did NOT.

Not by name.

So, just so we can be perfectly clear about this and put this NAME controversy to rest, I ask you this very simple question ONE MORE TIME, tam:

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Is the name "Jesus" mentioned in Genesis, YES or NO?

I was not aware it was a controversy. No, Christ is not mentioned by name in Genesis (that I know of).


But then, I never suggested otherwise.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy