Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[Claire Evans]

Claire Evans posted:

They do not believe that Jesus' physical body resurrected. Is this your belief?



18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Romans 4:17 (King James Version)

Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, not becoming a spirit.

http://spiritquickened.blogspot.co.za/2 ... icken.html


New American Commentary – Volume 28: 1 Corinthians, Mark Taylor.
The clause "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" refers to Christ's resurrection from the dead. When he defeated death, he obtained a transformed human body that is spiritual. When he rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit became the Spirit of Christ (see II Cor. 3:17). And the Spirit granted Christ the power to give life to his followers and to make their physical bodies like his own. Before his death, Jesus raised people from the dead (the daughter of Jairus, the young man of Nain, and Lazarus), but their physical bodies remained mortal. After his resurrection, immortality for his people became a certainty.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-quicken ... escribe-it

If Jesus had not His physical resurrection, then where is the proof that the dead will rise from the dead? How would the disciples have been convinced of that? This is the very thing that the Corinthians could not have understand. They believed in just a spiritual resurrection so they were confused about what form the dead will have.

Your arguments mean nothing unless you admit to me the empty tomb account is false.

(3) I have been saying all along that the ones who will be changed and who will go to heaven to rule are the members of the 144,000. The rest of us will live right here on Earth in PHYSICAL bodies, forever. That is what the original purpose was for humans, and God has not changed His mind. Also, we JWs have said that the first members of the 144,000 were the disciples of Jesus in the first century, Peter, John and the other Apostles, and all the others who accepted the good news and followed Christ's teachings---including Paul.

Where did the ancients get the number 144 000 from like Tutankhamen? So basically God favours the 144 000 above the rest of us? That the rest of us will not be in God's kingdom and will remain on earth forever.

The earth will not last forever:

Revelation 21:1

Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

(4) Why quote Kurt Rudolph? What he said has nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses today nor in the first century.

Do you not share his belief? Yes or no?

or the Gnostic who abhors matter and seeks release from its grim grip, the physical resurrection of Jesus would be anticlimactic, if not absurd. A material resurrection would be counterproductive and only recapitulate the original problem.

Gnostic: Not a resurrection of a mass of flesh and sinful temptations, but an rising of the spirit up out of the physical nature.

Gnostic: Yes! and just as he shed physicality and arose as a "life-giving" spirit, so will we . . . he is the prototype of our "resurrection", of our ascension past the flesh.

Do you agree with that he has said? Surely this is the same belief as Jehovah's Witnesses?



"Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah's organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting." Watchtower 1986 Jan 1 p.13

This is condemned yet the WTS will not report paedophiles to the police.

"Watchtower has received tremendous criticism globally for its policies on paedophilia and been the subject of a multitude of media reports. Silentlambs.org lists numerous examples that highlight the extent of child abuse amongst Jehovah's Witnesses. This extends to prominent elders at Bethel, such as Jesus Cano, who handed out naked pictures of himself to young males at airports whilst travelling on District Convention speaking assignments, and was arrested in June 2006.1

The situation amongst Jehovah's Witnesses regarding paedophiles is reminiscent of the Catholic Church. The New York Times has however noted a difference between pedophilia amongst Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholic's. In the Catholic Church:

"most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women, and many accusations involve incest." August 11, 2002
There have been several reasons that paedophiles have been able to find sanctuary amongst Jehovah's Witnesses and that the Watchtower Society is now being held accountable for the actions of its members.2 Most damaging, and described in detail below, were the following:

The two witness rule to establish Scriptural crimes
The three year rule for sins of elders"

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/paedophilia.php

All Jehovah's Witnesses must renounce the WTS.

(6) You say JWs have no conception of the difference between literal and figurative things in the Bible. I beg to differ. I believe that JWs are the ONLY ones who understand the difference, and they teach such. All of those teachings are well explained by them, looking to the Scriptures to see the answers. Why is it "ridiculous" to believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven when, if man had never sinned, Adam would still be here and would live on Earth forever....not ever needing the ransom of Christ nor the guidance from heaven of the 144,000 with Jesus? Accept it or not, humans are living on this planet forever, in physical bodies, just like God intended from the beginning. So 144,000 is PLENTY to make up a cabinet for Christ in his heavenly government.

John 3:3 ESV

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.�

Is He referring to only the 144 000? The gift is that if we accept Jesus, we shall inherit eternal life not just an exclusive few!

And 144 000 is an occult number.

____________________________________________________________________

ONEWITHHIM RESPONDS:

(1) We believe that Jesus was not resurrected in a physical body. That is correct. If the Gnostics happen to believe that too, that's OK with us. JWs do NOT believe the following, which Gnostics believe:

(a) That all of mankind will be resurrected to life in spirit bodies.
(b) That most of the canonical Scriptures are not really the Word of God.
(c) That the earth was created in a flawed manner.
(d) That the blame for the world's failings lies with the Creator.
(e) That the True God did not actually create anything but he "emanated" it from within himself, bringing forth the substance of all there is; ALL is God, for all consists of the substance of God.
(f) That "Sophia," one of the "aeonial beings," is of any importance, and that from her own being came a being that imagined himself to be the ultimate and absolute God, with his minions the Archons.
(g) That it is not salvation from sin that we aspire to, but salvation from ignorance. It is not by Christ's suffering and death that he has performed his work of salvation, but by his life of teaching and his "establishing of mysteries."


There is much more, and most of it is very complicated and convoluted. From what I have listed here, I think it is plain to see that JWs do not agree with Gnostics on most things.

Agreed but should Gnostic and JWs believe the same empty tomb resurrection account?

(2) I don't quite get your discussion of "quickening." I Peter 3:18 says that Christ was put to death in the flesh and "quickened" in the spirit. He was made alive in the spirit. He had a spirit body, upon being resurrected. You didn't answer my question: "What spirit entered into Christ's glorified body?"

He was made alive by the Holy Spirit, hence quickening which means make alive.


Other versions of the Bible corroborate this:

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.� (NIV)

1 Peter 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

(3) Jesus became a human when he came to Earth. He was not a spirit any longer, the way he had been in heaven (just as the Father, God, is [John 4:24]). So when he died, it wasn't a spirit being that died. It was his physical body---which he GAVE UP for our salvation. The scripture about "quickening" does not say that Jesus' physical body was made alive. Another version of the Bible says: "...having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." (NASB) Pretty clear.

Then the empty tomb story is a farce.

(5) Jesus didn't have to rise in a physical body to give us the assurance that there will be a resurrection of "both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15) The fact that he was resurrected AT ALL shows us that the dead will rise.

What about the accounts in the Bible when Jesus appeared to hundreds after His death? Was He an apparition?

(6) My arguments might mean nothing to you, but they are held by way over 8 million people on this planet. Your ideas are your prerogative. It's your choice what you accept and what you don't. I choose not to accept your ideas.

You choose to not accept the empty tomb account which obviously conflicts with the Bible. Until you address that, your argument falls flat.

(7) God does NOT "favor the 144,000 over the rest of us." President Obama's cabinet isn't made up of superior human beings. They are all regular humans. In like manner, Jesus' "cabinet" of 144,000 are not special superior persons. They are all just like regular people. They just have been given a great assignment, to serve and guide the billions of people on the earth during Christ's Millennial Reign.

(8) Your understanding of Revelation 21 needs a bit of help. Why would it be literal when most of Revelation is SYMBOLIC? For arguments' sake, let's just say for a moment that the number 144,000 is not literal. Let's set it on the shelf and not pay any attention to it. Does that change anything? No, because we know that Jesus will have many of his followers in heaven with him to rule over the earth. He said so a number of times. (Matt.19:28; Matt.20:21-23) In Revelation 7 there are two groups portrayed, the "12 tribes of Israel" and then a great crowd which has no number. So whether or not there are LITERALLY 144,000 in heaven, we have a situation where some are ruling with Jesus and some who are not. So, we have taken out the most agitating point, to you, of 144,000 literal persons. Now the whole book of Revelation is SYMBOLIC, right?

Matthew 19:28 and 20, when referring to the thrones, means just receiving eternal salvation.

"Judging the twelve tribes - From the parallel place, Luke 22:28-30, it is evident that sitting on thrones, and judging the twelve tribes, means simply obtaining eternal salvation, and the distinguishing privileges of the kingdom of glory, by those who continued faithful to Christ in his sufferings and death."


Judging, κ�ινοντες . Kypke has shown that κ�ινεσθαι is to be understood in the sense of governing, presiding, holding the first or most distinguished place. Thus, Genesis 49:16, Dan shall Judge his people, i.e. shall preside in, or rule over them; shall occupy a chief place among the tribes. It is well known that the Judges among the Jews were moderators, captains, chief, or head men. The sense therefore of our Lord's words appears to be, that these disciples should have those distinguished seats in glory which seem to belong peculiarly to the first confessors and martyrs. See 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and particularly Revelation 20:4-6.

http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm

Therefore, if we accept this, this passage refers to the after-life. We know nobody can stay on earth forever. The old earth will pass away.


Is the whole of Revelation symbolic? I don't think so.

Why do you take chapter 21, verses 1-3, as literal? New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven. What exactly IS the New Jerusalem? It's not even a literal city! New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ....it is made up of Jesus' anointed co-rulers. What has "passed away" in verse 1? The former heaven and the former earth. Could this mean that the former governments of earth are gone, and the former world of wicked mankind is gone? "The sea is no more"....could that mean that the roiling, disgruntled masses of people that inhabited the earth are gone? Revelation itself defined "the sea" as people. (Rev.17:15) No one will be disgruntled in the new system of things. The planet will always be here:

"A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing forever." (Ecclesiastes 1:4)

"Those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth....They will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:9b,11b,29)

Well, Jesus said there would be no more death and as long as we have this earth, there will always be death. Mortal bodies live on this earth. What is the old order that has passed away? A place where this is no death? That is what it is saying.


Regarding Ecclesiastes, many people get confused with the contexts of things because the Bible has been translated into English:

"The Jehovah’s Witnesses contend that “this earth was created, not to be destroyed, but to be inhabited forever by righteous, perfect men and women� (Let God Be True, p. 264). They appeal to such passages as Ecciesiastes 1:4, “. . . the earth abideth for ever� (cf. Psalm 78:69). What they fail to perceive, however, is that the term “for ever� does not always denote an absolutely endless existence. The Hebrew word olam basically means “age-lasting.� It is employed to describe the duration of the Passover, and the Levitical priesthood (Exodus 12:14; Numbers 25:13), both of which lasted only as long as the Mosaic economy. These references should be entered in the margin of your Bible in connection with Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalm 78:69.

Too, note this interesting passage. In Isaiah 32, the prophet of God depicts the horrible punishment that is to be visited upon Jerusalem (the capital city of Judah) on account of the nation’s transgressions. He says the holy city will be deserted and become the haunts of animals “for ever� (v. 14). Yet, in the very next verse, he declares that these conditions will prevail only “until the Spirit be poured upon us from on high,� (a prophecy of the blessings of the gospel age – cf. Joel 2:28ff). Underline the term “for ever� in verse 14, and then mark the word “until� in verse 15. Connect them. The latter word clearly shows that “for ever� can be used in a qualified sense. The context must determine the meaning in a given setting.

The earth will not literally last for ever. In Ecclesiastes 1:4, etc., the expression is used relatively. The New Testament makes it quite plain that the material universe will be destroyed eventually (cf. Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:5-13).:

This applies to the Psalms, too.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... es-forever

The Gnostic fellow that you quote might believe that people are raised in the spirit, but he doesn't agree with JWs. We believe that only a certain number will be raised in the spirit, and MOST people that have died will be raised back to physical bodies.

As I said, not everything Gnostics believe match the JWs but the most important one and that there Christ's resurrection was just spiritual.

You try to equate JWs with what the RCC has done, and that is erroneous. JWs discipline the pedophiles and the adulterers, etc. The RCC doesn't. JWs do have the "two witness" rule, gotten from the Bible. It protects a person from being accused unfairly. And I have NEVER heard of the "three year rule" for sins of elders.

What? Are you serious? You are defending the WTS? Paedophilia is a criminal offence. Paedophiles belong in jail. To put paedophiles and adulterers in the same category is wrong. Adulterers don't go to jail. The WTS is obstructing justice. In fact, that in itself is a criminal offence.

How do you know that the WTS disciplines paedophiles?

We have never said that just a few will inherit eternal life. You are making that up.


[/u][/b]

Remaining on earth forever and ever in our mortal bodies is not inheriting eternal life.

[onewithhim]

Just so we are clear, by the comment above you agree there are those where 2 John 9-11 should be enforced? It also seems you agree that, like I have been saying this whole time, this 'rejecting' of a person is for more than just making a mistake. It's for serious practiced sin. 2 John 9-11 is not to be applied to those that make a mistake and repent, but must be applied to those that knowingly and willfully go against the example Jesus set without repentance. Don't you agree?

I don't agree nor does Jesus.

Then let this be an example of where Jehovah's Witnesses know and follow the Bible were others don't. Jesus said that those that don't know the scriptures would be in error. Not only that, they don't know the power of God in the scriptures.

"Jesus said to them: “Is not this why you are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?" - Mark 12:24

Also, don't be so quick to speak for Jesus. "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." John 5:22, 23.

Just who do you think told John to write what he did? Jesus is charge of the congregation. John was simply following Jesus' command to write what he was told to write. The same person that followed Jesus and was God-Inspired to write the Gospel of John also wrote 2 John 9-11.

"Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers." 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

Now for the question of Evangelicals vs JWs. Shouldn't the true religion follow the commands in the Bible? Like 2 John 9-11.

Shouldn't those belonging to the true religion believe in the empty tomb resurrection account?

JWs do believe in the empty tomb account, and you haven't substantiated your claim that we don't.

Also, we follow the commands in the Bible and you do not. I can say that because you dismiss out-of-hand the admonishment from the Scriptures to disfellowship anyone who practices serious sins.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 543 by Claire Evans]

Quite the slippery answer. It is not what asked for.

Context doesn't change the fact that "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." - 2 John 9-11

I will ask once more. Do you agree that the above should be enforced? Only yes or no answers, anything else will be considered evading the question.

Mark 2:13-17New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Calls Levi and Eats With Sinners
13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,� Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.

15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?�

17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.�

If you context is correct, then Paul is contradicting Jesus.

Now stop evading the empty tomb question, please!

Your example isn't appropriate to the discussion. Why? Because disfellowshipped people DID KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD. The tax collectors and sinners that Jesus ate with had not been taught the truth about God. That is what Jesus was there for---to tell them.

Paul did not contradict Jesus.

No, the disfellowshipped people broke the rules of the WTS. Even though we may know God, it does not mean we won't sin again. And doesn't mean one truly knows God if one belongs to the Christian religion. And this is what Jesus said about brothers in Christ:

Matthew 18:15-17:

"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

Where's the part about shunning?

The part about shunning is right there in the last sentence of the Scripture you quoted above. "If he [the one who committed a serious sin] does not listen even to the congregation [the elders who spoke with him and tried to reason with him to stop practicing the sin], let him be to you as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

Now, what did the Jews at that time think of non-Jews and tax collectors? They shunned them. Jesus did not say to shun tax collectors, or even the Gentiles, but he was bringing up what the whole nation thought of those people. He said, "let him be to you AS you people view the Gentiles and tax collectors." The deliberate practicer of serious sins should be shunned by the congregation.



Come Lord Jesus

.

[tam]

2John is not referring to sin, nor even to gross sin. It is referring to people - to deceivers and antichrists - who BRING a teaching that is not what John reminded those he was writing to about, in this letter. Do not bring them into your home, do not have a sharing with them.

From verse 4 onward:

It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what we[a] have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.

12 I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

So yes, he warns that those who run ahead and do not continue in the teaching of Christ do not have God. Just a statement.


Then he warns that the one who comes to you and does not bring this teaching (that we are to walk in love, that we are to walk in obedience to His commands; etc) is the person that we are not to have a sharing with.


It has nothing to do with df'ing a sinner. If your brother sins, rebuke him (and if need be, follow the process that Christ laid out).

It is a warning about antichrists and deceivers being out there; and perhaps how to recognize them as well as not to have a sharing with them. Seems he was worried about the influence of such deceivers and anti-christs (as Christ Himself said such people would come and that we were not to listen to them). But as stated earlier, we don't know what exactly was going on with the people John was addressing OR what else he intended to explain further to them when he arrived in person. We have a very short letter addressed to a particular people over a particular issue.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

Where's the part about shunning?

And your question about the empty tomb was answered by me quite awhile ago.


.

Please post again because I did not see it. Please comment on this:

Matthew 28:13


…12After the chief priests had met with the elders and formed a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money 13and instructed them: “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole His body while we were asleep. 14If this report reaches the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.�…

If His physical body remained and was still there then why suggest the disciples stole it?

It is in my post #549. (Three sentences up from the bottom.) I'll bump it up here after I respond to Matthew 28:13. JWs have never said that Jesus' body was still in the tomb. Please don't post things about somebody that you can't substantiate.


.

[onewithhim]

Response to post #470 by Claire Evans:

I don't know how many times I'll have to explain this....I thought that it has already been explained. That is, your comment on spirit bodies in relation to physical bodies. Paul said (ICorinthians 15) that there are physical bodies and then there are spirit bodies. "First the physical and then afterward the spirit." He was talking about those 144,000 that are called to be co-rulers with Christ. They first are humans with physical bodies, and then when they die they are to be resurrected (changed) as spirit persons.

You didn't clarify about the where you get the idea of 144 000 from. Did Paul say that?

A body is physical. There is no way around that.

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." (ICorinth.15:42,44, NASB)

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (ICorinth.15:51,52, NASB)

Paul clearly informs his anointed brothers & sisters that they will CHANGE, not have some kind of physical body infused with spirit attributes and abilities. There is nothing to indicate that Jesus had a "spirit that entered his glorified body," as you stated. A spirit that has consciousness and separates from a body at death is not taught in the Bible. The spirit that "returns to the true God" is the breath of life that God gives to every living creature. So what would that "spirit" be that "entered his [Jesus'] glorified body"?

But a body being imperishable means it is immortal. It cannot be destroyed. That doesn't mean we don't have physical bodies anymore and are just spirits. According to the Bible, Jesus took on all of our sins and thus there was no Holy Spirit in Him. When He conquered death and sin and was raised from the dead, He had the Holy Spirit in Him. The Holy Spirit rose Him from the dead.

The glorified body was actually a SPIRIT body that could materialize as some angels did in the days of Abraham and Lot. Isn't that what some angels also did in Noah's day when they materialized to have sex with human women? They had been angels---spirit persons. And they de-materialized when the Flood came.

Let us look at this scripture:

Luke 24:39

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.�

Therefore the resurrection of Christ does not mean He rose again as a spirit It was His body that He had on earth but was now just glorified. Thomas put his finger through the hole in the wrist of Jesus that had a nail in it.

The angels mention did not have mortal bodies like Jesus had. They never were resurrected. We have mortal bodies and Jesus' resurrection shows us that even though we are mortal now, we shall be immortal when we resurrect.

A very important point was disregarded by you. If Jesus' crucified body had not risen from the dead, then the resurrection story about the empty tomb is a lie. His body should still have been in the tomb.

Paul said nothing in ICorinthians in direct reference to Gnostic beliefs, as you suggest. I don't know exactly all that the Gnostics believed, but if they believed that there is only a spiritual resurrection, then they were in agreement with Paul as far as what Paul said about the anointed Christians' resurrection. He wasn't "correcting" any idea like that. He was solely describing the resurrection of the chosen ones, the co-rulers with Christ. He said that there is no flesh in the heavenly realm of the Kingdom (verse 50) and went on to say that they would all have spirit bodies, as I quoted above.

But Paul was chastising them so therefore he was not in agreement with them:

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?� 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

The Gnostics believe what you do:

For the Gnostic Christians, resurrection was also a spiritual event - simply the awakening of the soul. They believed that people who experience the resurrection can experience eternal life, or union with God, while on earth and then after death, escape rebirth. People who don't experience the resurrection and union with God on earth will reincarnate.



"People who say they will first die and then arise are mistaken. If they do not first receive resurrection while they are alive, once they have died they will receive nothing." (Gospel of Philip)



Paul was clearly chastising the Gnostic-like Corinthians. He told them their beliefs were foolish.

To elaborate further:

Kurt Rudolph explains the concept of resurrection in gnosticism, "For the Gnostic any resurrection of the dead was excluded from the outset; the flesh or the substance is destined to perish. 'There is no resurrection of the flesh, but only of the soul', say the so-called Archonites, a late Gnostic group in Palestine."(2)

http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html

How can a glorified physical body be imperishable? How does any Scripture indicate that there are imperishable glorified physical bodies? Can you show this? To me, Paul drew a sharp line between perishable and imperishable bodies. You are combining them. What Scriptures back this up?

"...What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 3 "


Obviously the sown body is the body we have now. It is not the body to be in the future but the ones we have now. Therefore the physical body cannot be resurrected until it dies. The seed then gives way to a new form.

Paul did distinguish between the perishable and imperishable. But he also said, as mentioned above, that the perished sown body will be come to life in another form.

It obviously does not mean we will have original bodies. How could they? Bodies eventually disappear after death. Yet Jesus had the likeness of what we looked like on earth yet it became indestructible. He no longer looked scourged like he was.

To answer your last questions: Jehovah's Witnesses don't "pledge allegiance" to the WTS in so many words. We say that we recognize the WTS as Jehovah's organization on Earth, but our allegiance is to Jehovah and His appointed King Christ Jesus. We don't believe, either, that the WTS can "take away salvation." Only Jehovah can do that.

But they need to follow the rules of the WTS or be disowned. This is obeying every rule of the WTS. And it says that if one is disfellowed, then they lose their salvation therefore you are in disagreement with the WTS.

Sorry, Claire! I am surprised that I missed your post. I'm getting old, and keep having brain farts.

You asked where JWs get the idea of the 144,000. Paul didn't enumerate the co-rulers with Christ. He just talked about them and what they were going to do. We get the number from Revelation 7 and 14.

The Bible says that a body can be physical OR spirit. Did you have a chance to read I Corinthians 15:40-44? It couldn't be clearer. Am I correct in saying that you don't think a spirit person has a body? But what does Paul say there?

You are correct. When Jesus' co-rulers are resurrected to heavenly life in their spirit bodies, they are immortal, just as Christ is immortal.

You change a whole truth that has been shown to you from several scriptures by elaborating on what Jesus said to Thomas and the others after his resurrection. He obviously had to be a glorious spirit person again (as he was in heaven before he came to the earth) to get through a locked door. And what of the quite clear verses that I posted? Are we to rip them out of our Bibles?

"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving SPIRIT." (I Corinth.15:45, NASB)

"For Christ also died for sins once for all...having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the SPIRIT." (I Peter 3:18, NASB)


Also, did you forget that Paul explained that when the co-rulers are resurrected they would CHANGE? I guess Jesus' physical body changed itself right out of existence. He GAVE UP that physical human body FOR US. Do you appreciate that?

Who said that Paul was chastising the Gnostics? I don't know how you came up with anything in reference to the Gnostics. I commented about that, and I stand by what I said. And no, I don't believe what the Gnostics believe. Not at all. And you quote the "Gospel of Philip"? That's not in the Bible, and I don't recognize it as reliable.


Now, I've commented on your post, so will you now comment on my post #542? It goes into the subject that you bring up again in the post I just responded to.

For Claire Evans, as requested.

[2timothy316]

2John is not referring to sin, nor even to gross sin. It is referring to people - to deceivers and antichrists - who BRING a teaching that is not what John reminded those he was writing to about, in this letter. Do not bring them into your home, do not have a sharing with them.

Deceivers that people draw away from Jesus and antichrists who teach the exact opposite of what Jesus preached are not practicing gross sin? That's a new one!

At anyrate, to clarify, you do agree that there are people such as deceivers and antichrists that followers of Jesus should have nothing to do with?

[onewithhim]

Claire Evans posted:

They do not believe that Jesus' physical body resurrected. Is this your belief?

____________________________________________________________________

ONEWITHHIM RESPONDS:

(1) We believe that Jesus was not resurrected in a physical body. That is correct. If the Gnostics happen to believe that too, that's OK with us. JWs do NOT believe the following, which Gnostics believe:

(a) That all of mankind will be resurrected to life in spirit bodies.
(b) That most of the canonical Scriptures are not really the Word of God.
(c) That the earth was created in a flawed manner.
(d) That the blame for the world's failings lies with the Creator.
(e) That the True God did not actually create anything but he "emanated" it from within himself, bringing forth the substance of all there is; ALL is God, for all consists of the substance of God.
(f) That "Sophia," one of the "aeonial beings," is of any importance, and that from her own being came a being that imagined himself to be the ultimate and absolute God, with his minions the Archons.
(g) That it is not salvation from sin that we aspire to, but salvation from ignorance. It is not by Christ's suffering and death that he has performed his work of salvation, but by his life of teaching and his "establishing of mysteries."


There is much more, and most of it is very complicated and convoluted. From what I have listed here, I think it is plain to see that JWs do not agree with Gnostics on most things.

Agreed but should Gnostic and JWs believe the same empty tomb resurrection account?

(2) I don't quite get your discussion of "quickening." I Peter 3:18 says that Christ was put to death in the flesh and "quickened" in the spirit. He was made alive in the spirit. He had a spirit body, upon being resurrected. You didn't answer my question: "What spirit entered into Christ's glorified body?"

He was made alive by the Holy Spirit, hence quickening which means make alive.


Other versions of the Bible corroborate this:

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.� (NIV)

1 Peter 3:18-20King James Version (KJV)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

(3) Jesus became a human when he came to Earth. He was not a spirit any longer, the way he had been in heaven (just as the Father, God, is [John 4:24]). So when he died, it wasn't a spirit being that died. It was his physical body---which he GAVE UP for our salvation. The scripture about "quickening" does not say that Jesus' physical body was made alive. Another version of the Bible says: "...having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." (NASB) Pretty clear.

Then the empty tomb story is a farce.

(5) Jesus didn't have to rise in a physical body to give us the assurance that there will be a resurrection of "both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15) The fact that he was resurrected AT ALL shows us that the dead will rise.

What about the accounts in the Bible when Jesus appeared to hundreds after His death? Was He an apparition?

(7) God does NOT "favor the 144,000 over the rest of us." President Obama's cabinet isn't made up of superior human beings. They are all regular humans. In like manner, Jesus' "cabinet" of 144,000 are not special superior persons. They are all just like regular people. They just have been given a great assignment, to serve and guide the billions of people on the earth during Christ's Millennial Reign.

(8) Your understanding of Revelation 21 needs a bit of help. Why would it be literal when most of Revelation is SYMBOLIC? For arguments' sake, let's just say for a moment that the number 144,000 is not literal. Let's set it on the shelf and not pay any attention to it. Does that change anything? No, because we know that Jesus will have many of his followers in heaven with him to rule over the earth. He said so a number of times. (Matt.19:28; Matt.20:21-23) In Revelation 7 there are two groups portrayed, the "12 tribes of Israel" and then a great crowd which has no number. So whether or not there are LITERALLY 144,000 in heaven, we have a situation where some are ruling with Jesus and some who are not. So, we have taken out the most agitating point, to you, of 144,000 literal persons. Now the whole book of Revelation is SYMBOLIC, right?

Matthew 19:28 and 20, when referring to the thrones, means just receiving eternal salvation.

"Judging the twelve tribes - From the parallel place, Luke 22:28-30, it is evident that sitting on thrones, and judging the twelve tribes, means simply obtaining eternal salvation, and the distinguishing privileges of the kingdom of glory, by those who continued faithful to Christ in his sufferings and death."


Judging, κ�ινοντες . Kypke has shown that κ�ινεσθαι is to be understood in the sense of governing, presiding, holding the first or most distinguished place. Thus, Genesis 49:16, Dan shall Judge his people, i.e. shall preside in, or rule over them; shall occupy a chief place among the tribes. It is well known that the Judges among the Jews were moderators, captains, chief, or head men. The sense therefore of our Lord's words appears to be, that these disciples should have those distinguished seats in glory which seem to belong peculiarly to the first confessors and martyrs. See 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and particularly Revelation 20:4-6.

http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm

Therefore, if we accept this, this passage refers to the after-life. We know nobody can stay on earth forever. The old earth will pass away.


Is the whole of Revelation symbolic? I don't think so.

Why do you take chapter 21, verses 1-3, as literal? New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven. What exactly IS the New Jerusalem? It's not even a literal city! New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ....it is made up of Jesus' anointed co-rulers. What has "passed away" in verse 1? The former heaven and the former earth. Could this mean that the former governments of earth are gone, and the former world of wicked mankind is gone? "The sea is no more"....could that mean that the roiling, disgruntled masses of people that inhabited the earth are gone? Revelation itself defined "the sea" as people. (Rev.17:15) No one will be disgruntled in the new system of things. The planet will always be here:

"A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing forever." (Ecclesiastes 1:4)

"Those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth....They will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it." (Psalm 37:9b,11b,29)

Well, Jesus said there would be no more death and as long as we have this earth, there will always be death. Mortal bodies live on this earth. What is the old order that has passed away? A place where this is no death? That is what it is saying.


Regarding Ecclesiastes, many people get confused with the contexts of things because the Bible has been translated into English:

"The Jehovah’s Witnesses contend that “this earth was created, not to be destroyed, but to be inhabited forever by righteous, perfect men and women� (Let God Be True, p. 264). They appeal to such passages as Ecciesiastes 1:4, “. . . the earth abideth for ever� (cf. Psalm 78:69). What they fail to perceive, however, is that the term “for ever� does not always denote an absolutely endless existence. The Hebrew word olam basically means “age-lasting.� It is employed to describe the duration of the Passover, and the Levitical priesthood (Exodus 12:14; Numbers 25:13), both of which lasted only as long as the Mosaic economy. These references should be entered in the margin of your Bible in connection with Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalm 78:69.

Too, note this interesting passage. In Isaiah 32, the prophet of God depicts the horrible punishment that is to be visited upon Jerusalem (the capital city of Judah) on account of the nation’s transgressions. He says the holy city will be deserted and become the haunts of animals “for ever� (v. 14). Yet, in the very next verse, he declares that these conditions will prevail only “until the Spirit be poured upon us from on high,� (a prophecy of the blessings of the gospel age – cf. Joel 2:28ff). Underline the term “for ever� in verse 14, and then mark the word “until� in verse 15. Connect them. The latter word clearly shows that “for ever� can be used in a qualified sense. The context must determine the meaning in a given setting.

The earth will not literally last for ever. In Ecclesiastes 1:4, etc., the expression is used relatively. The New Testament makes it quite plain that the material universe will be destroyed eventually (cf. Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:5-13).:

This applies to the Psalms, too.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... es-forever

The Gnostic fellow that you quote might believe that people are raised in the spirit, but he doesn't agree with JWs. We believe that only a certain number will be raised in the spirit, and MOST people that have died will be raised back to physical bodies.

As I said, not everything Gnostics believe match the JWs but the most important one and that there Christ's resurrection was just spiritual.

You try to equate JWs with what the RCC has done, and that is erroneous. JWs discipline the pedophiles and the adulterers, etc. The RCC doesn't. JWs do have the "two witness" rule, gotten from the Bible. It protects a person from being accused unfairly. And I have NEVER heard of the "three year rule" for sins of elders.

What? Are you serious? You are defending the WTS? Paedophilia is a criminal offence. Paedophiles belong in jail. To put paedophiles and adulterers in the same category is wrong. Adulterers don't go to jail. The WTS is obstructing justice. In fact, that in itself is a criminal offence.

How do you know that the WTS disciplines paedophiles?

We have never said that just a few will inherit eternal life. You are making that up.


[/u][/b]

Remaining on earth forever and ever in our mortal bodies is not inheriting eternal life.

(1) Do JWs believe the same resurrection account as the Gnostics? I actually don't remember off-hand what the Gnostics believe; I'd have to go back and look. What I can say is what JWs believe: Jesus was raised back to life in a spirit body, and AS SUCH went and talked with the demons in the spirit realm. (I Peter 3:18-20, NASB) A couple of versions say that Jesus was "made alive BY the Spirit," which is actually true, but the reason we know that other versions that say "Made alive IN THE SPIRIT" are more correct is because it is contrasting his death IN THE FLESH with the manner in which he was raised---IN THE SPIRIT. (NASB; NAB; New Catholic Edition; Moffatt Translation; Young's Literal Translation) And I could go on, but I've got to get ready for an appointment.

(2) Later

[Claire Evans]

Just so we are clear, by the comment above you agree there are those where 2 John 9-11 should be enforced? It also seems you agree that, like I have been saying this whole time, this 'rejecting' of a person is for more than just making a mistake. It's for serious practiced sin. 2 John 9-11 is not to be applied to those that make a mistake and repent, but must be applied to those that knowingly and willfully go against the example Jesus set without repentance. Don't you agree?

I don't agree nor does Jesus.

Then let this be an example of where Jehovah's Witnesses know and follow the Bible were others don't. Jesus said that those that don't know the scriptures would be in error. Not only that, they don't know the power of God in the scriptures.

"Jesus said to them: “Is not this why you are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?" - Mark 12:24

Also, don't be so quick to speak for Jesus. "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." John 5:22, 23.

Just who do you think told John to write what he did? Jesus is charge of the congregation. John was simply following Jesus' command to write what he was told to write. The same person that followed Jesus and was God-Inspired to write the Gospel of John also wrote 2 John 9-11.

"Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers." 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

Now for the question of Evangelicals vs JWs. Shouldn't the true religion follow the commands in the Bible? Like 2 John 9-11.

Shouldn't those belonging to the true religion believe in the empty tomb resurrection account?

JWs do believe in the empty tomb account, and you haven't substantiated your claim that we don't.

Also, we follow the commands in the Bible and you do not. I can say that because you dismiss out-of-hand the admonishment from the Scriptures to disfellowship anyone who practices serious sins.

.

Truly odd. If you believe in the empty tomb account, then you believe Jesus' physical body rose from the dead. What is it now? Just a spiritual resurrection or the resurrection of the body?

[Claire Evans]

And 144 000 is an occult number.

No it's not. That number can be found in the book of Revelation. It was the number given to John by Jesus Christ through an angel. John then wrote it down in what we know as the book of Revelation.

It appears way before that.

In Tutankhamen's sun necklace, the numbers 144 000 and 666 are encoded.
The carving of Lord Pacal had 144 000 on his forehead encoded also.

https://books.google.co.za/books?id=D3F ... 00&f=false




The book of Revelation starts this way...

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John." - Revelation 1:1.

Do you disagree that John was writing down a 'revelation by Jesus Christ'?

I believe there are some parts in Revelation is from God but I believe there are some parts that are from Gnostics.

A Christian investigative sect called the Alogi stated that it was clear that Cerinthus was the true author of the book of Revelation after analyzing and comparing his writing style to that of Johns. According to the Catholic Encyclopidia Caius: “Additional light has been shown on the matter VI, p. 397″ Caius maintained that the Apocalypse of John was the work of the Gnostic Cerinthus�


Cerinthus, a man who was educated in the wisdom of the Egyptians, operated a school that followed and used the Gospel of Cerinthus. He denied that the Supreme God had made the physical world, and denied the divinity of Jesus. Cerinthus was a follower of the Zealot party, a group which had a strong political agenda. The Zealots taught that a military-political Messiah would soon appear to conquer the world and rule for a thousand years from Jerusalem. This concept of millennialism was promoted during the second century by Montanus who according to historian Eusebius of Caesarea entered into an ecstatic state of convulsions and began prophesying that the New Jerusalem would shortly descend out of the clouds and land in a town called Phrygia thus becoming one of the first “Prophet� to predict when the end of the world would occur.

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2016/ ... 81738.html

Please note I don't agree with everything in this article. Just the ones I have quoted.


Interesting to note is that he was educated in the wisdom of the Egyptians. It would explain why 144 000 is encoded in the sun necklace of Tutankhamen.

Interesting enough, there is evidence to suggest that Christ has nothing to do with the millenial reign. 1000 has a lot to do with the occult. George Bush Snr mentioned with the New World Order is the thousand points light.

"In President George H. W. Bush's State of the Union Address, January 1991, President Bush talked about Iraq and used the words illumined:
"If anyone tells you America's best days are behind her, they're looking the wrong way."

Tonight, I come before this house, and the American people, with an appeal for renewal. This is not merely a call for new government initiatives, it is a call for new initiative in government, in our communities, and from every American—to prepare for the next American century.

America has always led by example. So who among us will set this example? Which of our citizens will lead us in this next American century? Everyone who steps forward today, to get one addict off drugs; to convince one troubled teen-ager not to give up on life; to comfort one AIDS patient; to help one hungry child.

We have within our reach the promise of renewed America. We can find meaning and reward by serving some purpose higher than ourselves—a shining purpose, the illumination of a thousand points of light. It is expressed by all who know the irresistible force of a child's hand, of a friend who stands by you and stays there—a volunteer's generous gesture, an idea that is simply right...."

He strongly proposed for the New World Order.

Alice Bailey who channeled the words "points of light" in the book Externalization of the Hierarchy which was published by the Lucis Trust, incorporated originally in New York as the Lucifer Publishing Company. Lucis Trust is a United Nations NGO and is actively involved in U.N. summits. Assistant Secretary General of the U.N. Robert Mueller credited the creation of his World Core Curriculum for education to the underlying teachings of Djwahl Kuhl via Alice Bailey's writings on the subject.

In his 1939 book New World Order by H. G. Wells calls for a collectivist one-world state"' or "new world order" comprised of "socialist democracies." He advocates "universal conscription for service" and declares that "nationalist individualism... is the world's disease." President Obama called for a mandatory "civilian service."

In "The Open Conspiracy: Blue Prints for a World Revolution," Wells writes:
"The political world of the... Open Conspiracy must weaken, efface, incorporate and supersede existing governments... The Open Conspiracy is the natural inheritor of socialist and communist enthusiasms; it may be in control of Moscow before it is in control of New York... The character of the Open Conspiracy will now be plainly displayed... It will be a world religion." Wells understood that a belief in a one world government would have to be religious in nature, there would have to be a coming one world religion.

The purpose of modern education is social engineering designed to program students into accepting this new world religion of global government. In 1947 John Dewey, the father of American public education said that education must teach "...establishment of a genuine world order, an order in which national sovereignty is subordinate to world authority... "

In 1947 National Education Association Associate Secretary William Carr writes in the NEA Journal that it is the job of teachers to:
"... teach about the various proposals that have been made for the strengthening of the United Nations and the establishment of a world citizenship and world government."

Satan is a counterfeit. I believe that the 1000 years, which is a symbolic number, will be governed by the devil.

http://www.paulmcguire.org/articles/art ... order.html