BYU's Honor Code?

[Kuan]

Im not sure how many here follow college basketball but if you do, you'll probably know about this deal. BYU has had its best season ever in the history of the school, but then when they find out that their best rebounder broke the honor code, they suspend him for the rest of the season.

What do you guys make of this whole deal?

[Furrowed Brow]

Can you honestly tell me that, if you knew that your son was the reward, you would rather have put in your five years of college, found a woman with whom you could have had a strong, permanent relationship, and had him with her, that things would not have been easier for you--and for your son?

For myself the answer....honestly.....no not easier. the last 20 years have been fun. On the other hand my son could have done with a mother and some female parenting at times. there are a few occasion when it was not easy for him. It is true that is a regret. I can't give you a straight answer because it is a dillema: my sons happiness v my unhappiness. Of course there is only one winner.

The LDS template is like a small square hole or a very tight jumper. Sure it fits some perfect and others can squeeze into it but it is one size fits all. I suspect many wear it with a smile and tell themselves it fits fine.

Of course you don't regret your son; you got him in spite of the mistakes you made, and of course you wouldn't toss him out if he made mistakes of his own.

Besides from stuff that kills or does permanent harm very little is really a mistake. And even then it might not be a mistake. It depends on your viewpoint. I’m off to Peru in the summer. If I knew now that if ever in Peru there was 33% chance I’d fall down a mountain and break my neck....I’d still go. I’d rather live a shorter life where I have been to Peru. The disaster would be to die quietly in my sleep age 90 not have seen the Andes for myself. But of course the real dangers are only slight. The plane could crash, I could catch TB from the recycled air on a long haul flight, I might have some accident like falling down a mountain, I might get bit by something nasty, and I believe there is even a very small chance of kidnap....nah I’m still going. The real danger is coming back to a burnt out kitchen where my son has put burgers in the grill and walked away from them.

I will share in return; I too was 25 when I was a mother for the first time. I was also married. It was a lot easier to have and raise my kids when Jim was around than it would have been without him....and than it was after he died.

I am very sorry to hear that.

Life hands you enough challenges without going out and deliberately inviting the disasters in.

Yes. Maybe I should stay home and stop my son grilling burgers. But pre-marital sex like rock climbing does not deliberately invite disaster unless it is done stupidly and both should probably not be attempted drunk. I’d say “inviting disaster� is over stating the risks, and overstating the negative consequences. Ok the “disaster� scenario of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant and dropping out of college and maybe picking up an STD along the way... this is not a disaster. Of course it looks a disaster if there is a very neat template that just got ripped up but really it is not.

[dianaiad]

Can you honestly tell me that, if you knew that your son was the reward, you would rather have put in your five years of college, found a woman with whom you could have had a strong, permanent relationship, and had him with her, that things would not have been easier for you--and for your son?

For myself the answer....honestly.....no not easier. the last 20 years have been fun. On the other hand my son could have done with a mother and some female parenting at times. there are a few occasion when it was not easy for him. It is true that is a regret. I can't give you a straight answer because it is a dillema: my sons happiness v my unhappiness. Of course there is only one winner.

The LDS template is like a small square hole or a very tight jumper. Sure it fits some perfect and others can squeeze into it but it is one size fits all. I suspect many wear it with a smile and tell themselves it fits fine.

..........er, what on earth do you think our 'worldview' IS, exactly?

Of course you don't regret your son; you got him in spite of the mistakes you made, and of course you wouldn't toss him out if he made mistakes of his own.

Besides from stuff that kills or does permanent harm very little is really a mistake. And even then it might not be a mistake. It depends on your viewpoint. I’m off to Peru in the summer. If I knew now that if ever in Peru there was 33% chance I’d fall down a mountain and break my neck....I’d still go. I’d rather live a shorter life where I have been to Peru. The disaster would be to die quietly in my sleep age 90 not have seen the Andes for myself. But of course the real dangers are only slight. The plane could crash, I could catch TB from the recycled air on a long haul flight, I might have some accident like falling down a mountain, I might get bit by something nasty, and I believe there is even a very small chance of kidnap....nah I’m still going. The real danger is coming back to a burnt out kitchen where my son has put burgers in the grill and walked away from them.

I will share in return; I too was 25 when I was a mother for the first time. I was also married. It was a lot easier to have and raise my kids when Jim was around than it would have been without him....and than it was after he died.

I am very sorry to hear that.

Life hands you enough challenges without going out and deliberately inviting the disasters in.

Yes. Maybe I should stay home and stop my son grilling burgers. But pre-marital sex like rock climbing does not deliberately invite disaster unless it is done stupidly and both should probably not be attempted drunk.

Oddly enough, I'd say that your story is pretty good evidence that it does indeed 'invite disaster.'

Can you think of any other one human activity (including going to Peru--and have fun there, by the way--) that, when engaged in irresponsibly, invites more heartbreak, economic hardships or health risks?

..........perhaps going camping half a mile away from one of Japan's troubled power plants might come close, but.....

There are few things as rewarding, as fun, as productive, and as binding between loving and commited (for life, sir, not just for now..) partners than sex. BECAUSE it is so important--and so rewarding when engaged in with trust and commitment, it is also very dangerous when it isn't. It's the standard risk/reward thing; the scalpel that cuts the sharpest, and makes the surgeon's life easiest--is also the most dangerous when in inexperienced hands--or hands with dishonorable motives.

[I’d say “inviting disaster� is over stating the risks, and overstating the negative consequences. Ok the “disaster� scenario of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant and dropping out of college and maybe picking up an STD along the way... this is not a disaster.

No? Life changing, certainly. Disastrous if the person they happen to can't turn it around. Not everybody can. Seems more reasonable to me to simply--wait for the right one. The reward one gets for doing so far outweighs the transient pleasures you may have when you don't wait.

[ Of course it looks a disaster if there is a very neat template that just got ripped up but really it is not.

That you made the very best of the limited choices you were suddenly presented with is very much to your credit. That's what we are all supposed to do with the consequences when we screw up.

..........like that young BYU basketball player.

On the other hand, risk taking is risk taking. If you want to do that, it's certainly your right; live with the consequences. Please, though, don't pretend that those consequences are not real, and are not, often disastrous. There is nothing at all positive about becoming HIV positive. Nothing good about getting herpes. Nothing good for anybody about an abortion, and what is positive about giving someone something so precious--your intimacy and your self--only to have him or her betray you and carve you up in little pieces? (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

To me, at least, pre-marital sex is like handing your grandmother's priceless engagement ring to strangers--and being shocked when one of them steals it. Pre-and extra-marital sex is just plain.........stupid. Sinful or not, it's STUPID.

[Ragna]

To me, at least, pre-marital sex is like handing your grandmother's priceless engagement ring to strangers--and being shocked when one of them steals it. Pre-and extra-marital sex is just plain.........stupid. Sinful or not, it's STUPID.

Back to the beginning. Ok, that's your opinion. But you should recognize many people, in other countries, of other ages, of other cultures... don't marry and have the same average sexual relationships than other people, maybe with one partner maybe with several partners. And there is a huge percentage that with the needed cautions live a normal life and without high risks nor disastrous consequences. Modern health system and preventive methods have managed this. It is a reality and something a big percentage of humanity lives with.

Sure, marital sex is safer. But do you know what... chastity is even safer. Does this mean we should all be chaste? At all. How do you think you were born... take 6.000 years time. Do you think all of your ancestors were married, or monogamous? I honestly think a big percentage of them were not. Statistically speaking. Life needs some risks. Let everyone take the ones they want.

[Furrowed Brow]

..........er, what on earth do you think our 'worldview' IS, exactly?

• Huge focus on the family, getting married and having children within what might be called the “traditional familyâ€�.
  Very structured lifestyle e.g. family nights, church, males are priest holders.
  No pre-marital sex, chastity vows and so forth.
  Marriage is not just for life but for eternity.
  No Homosexual behaviour (as discussed).
  No drink, smokes, drugs.
  Big emphasis on conformity both in behaviour and dress , clean shaven, trim haircuts etc.
  Life pretty much planned out within the church structure. School – > mission –> marriage-> kids.

Oddly enough, I'd say that your story is pretty good evidence that it does indeed 'invite disaster.'

Yes I thought you might. But we are presently healthy and happy. This is not a disaster. True it was certainly life changing. True my son missed out, which is sad, but not a “disaster�.

Can you think of any other one human activity (including going to Peru--and have fun there, by the way--) that, when engaged in irresponsibly, invites more heartbreak, economic hardships or health risks?

Done irresponsible stuff that invites disaster more than pre-marital sex? Well there is gambling, drinking, driving, crossing the road, riding a bicycle, walking the street at night, walking the street in the day time, telling your boss to go stick it, skating, skate boarding, skiing, and basically going anywhere and doing anything without the protection of one of these....
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There are few things as rewarding, as fun, as productive, and as binding between loving and committed (for life, sir, not just for now..) partners than sex. BECAUSE it is so important--and so rewarding when engaged in with trust and commitment,

Too late now. I’ll never know.

it is also very dangerous when it isn't.

No it is not “very dangerous�. There is a s light risk of death when falling pregnant but being pregnant is not on the whole “very dangerous�. If it were then married folk should be avoiding it too. There is a risk of STD. Some STDs are not “very dangerous�, a few are. Taken at random anyone on the UK population stands runs twice the risk of an STD to be injured in a traffic accident. More risky sure.....but not “very dangerous�.

On the other hand, risk taking is risk taking. If you want to do that, it's certainly your right; live with the consequences. Please, though, don't pretend that those consequences are not real, and are not, often disastrous.

Risks are real but not to be overstated and they can be life changing, and in some cases they are disastrous.

There is nothing at all positive about becoming HIV positive.

In 2010 there were 111,000 cases of HIV in the UK. There were around 30 million adults. That is around 0.4% of the adult population. If you wear a condom and avoid the high risks groups the chances of catching HIV reduce drastically reduced. In 2009 516 HIV infected people died compared to around 4,000 pedestrians deaths . There is nothing positive being hit by a car. Yet still more people wear condoms than cross the road inside zorbs. It is not a question of being an inveterate risk taker, but a matter of evaluating the risk in an objective way and not understating the risk or overstating it.

..your intimacy and your self--only to have him or her betray you and carve you up in little pieces? (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Well that is to make some presumptions about what expectations folk are bringing to the operating table so too speak.

To me, at least, pre-marital sex is like handing your grandmother's priceless engagement ring to strangers--and being shocked when one of them steals it.

Actually that is something very similar to the advice my grandmother used to give us. None of us listened though. She had 17 great grand children (I think, kind of lost count), all but two born out of wedlock though some of their parents got married later after being together for a decade or two.

Pre-and extra-marital sex is just plain.........stupid. Sinful or not, it's STUPID.

OK we need to disambiguate. There is casual sex and there is premarital sex. Not all premarital sex is necessarily casual and there are degrees of casualness. My cousin and partner have been together since they were in their teens, they have four kids, the eldest is 25. They are not married. I don’t like to think about it but I suspect they are still having "stupid" premarital sex. But sure casual sex can often be very stupid. It can also be done safely and not be stupid.

[dianaiad]

..........er, what on earth do you think our 'worldview' IS, exactly?

• Huge focus on the family, getting married and having children within what might be called the “traditional familyâ€�.
  Very structured lifestyle e.g. family nights, church, males are priest holders.
  No pre-marital sex, chastity vows and so forth.
  Marriage is not just for life but for eternity.
  No Homosexual behaviour (as discussed).
  No drink, smokes, drugs.
  Big emphasis on conformity both in behaviour and dress , clean shaven, trim haircuts etc.
  Life pretty much planned out within the church structure. School – > mission –> marriage-> kids.

You have described a lifestyle, not a worldview. WHY do we do all these things? How do we view the world, that this lifestyle you have described becomes important to us?

oh, and...what the heck is wrong with that list?

There is nothing at all positive about becoming HIV positive.

In 2010 there were 111,000 cases of HIV in the UK. There were around 30 million adults. That is around 0.4% of the adult population. If you wear a condom and avoid the high risks groups the chances of catching HIV reduce drastically reduced. In 2009 516 HIV infected people died compared to around 4,000 pedestrians deaths . There is nothing positive being hit by a car. Yet still more people wear condoms than cross the road inside zorbs. It is not a question of being an inveterate risk taker, but a matter of evaluating the risk in an objective way and not understating the risk or overstating it.

go back and reread what you just wrote. You can avoid getting HIV by avoiding the high risk groups? Do you know who the 'high risk groups' ARE? According to the Global Health Council, the group most at risk are men who have sex with men, first and foremost (which means that homosexual sex is definitly going against your advice to avoid high risk groups), and intravenous drug users. Close after that comes...wait for it...women; especially women who have more than one partner, and the men who have sex with women who have more than one partner. Then comes...young people. Yep, anybody young. The group at lowest risk is women who only have sex with other women.

That doesn't help a lot, when you are looking to avoid 'high risk' groups. In fact, the one thing that goes through all the statistics is a cliche'. You know the one; about how when you have sex, you don't have sex just with your partner--you have sex with everyone your partner has had sex with, in terms of disease risk.

Pretty good reason for celibacy til marriage, and monogamy after, wouldn't you say?

your intimacy and your self--only to have him or her betray you and carve you up in little pieces? (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Well that is to make some presumptions about what expectations folk are bringing to the operating table so too speak.

Those who 'come to the table' just for the physical jollies...they are certainly demeaning something rather special, seems to me. Not just that, but I have also found that people might SAY all they want is the physical, but when the relationship bombs the heart still gets broken...and the other person in that relationship walks away with something irreplacable.

To me, at least, pre-marital sex is like handing your grandmother's priceless engagement ring to strangers--and being shocked when one of them steals it.

Actually that is something very similar to the advice my grandmother used to give us. None of us listened though. She had 17 great grand children (I think, kind of lost count), all but two born out of wedlock though some of their parents got married later after being together for a decade or two.

People should listen to their grandmothers more.

Pre-and extra-marital sex is just plain.........stupid. Sinful or not, it's STUPID.

OK we need to disambiguate. There is casual sex and there is premarital sex. Not all premarital sex is necessarily casual and there are degrees of casualness. My cousin and partner have been together since they were in their teens, they have four kids, the eldest is 25. They are not married. I don’t like to think about it but I suspect they are still having "stupid" premarital sex. But sure casual sex can often be very stupid. It can also be done safely and not be stupid.

There is a word for the relationship your cousin and partner have...I believe it's 'common law marriage.' For whatever reason they have decided not to go for the civil rights, but it certainly seems to me that they have the ethical/moral form of marriage going on just fine.

[Furrowed Brow]

You have described a lifestyle, not a worldview. WHY do we do all these things? How do we view the world, that this lifestyle you have described becomes important to us?

I think you would want to say that all this is informed by scripture and the LDS theology. But there is not a clear distinction between “lifestyle� and worldview�. The conformity of behaviour and rigidity of rule are part of the structure that reinforce attitudes like the rejection of homosexuality as acceptable, which is supported by the theology, which reinforces the rigidity which reinforces the theology and so on.

oh, and...what the heck is wrong with that list?

In a nutshell: the rigidity and demand for conformity and how it bleaches out folk who don’t mesh with the system like homosexuals. But it is not just sexual orientation. I have a friend who converted to the LDS and after eight years felt she had to leave. She was a divorcee (prior to joining) and already in her 30s she was no longer in the marriageable zone. The LDS social structure slowly fenced her with the half dozen permanent spinsters in their 40s and 50s that attended her church. She loved the folk she went to church with and many of the LDS ideals but the life in the church made her deeply unhappy and lonely because irony of ironies all she really wanted was a permanent relationship and to be married and share her life with someone...and have a child. But her age and past history meant this was a closed door for her if she remained part of the LDS. The reason she stayed so long was that had bought the ticket. She imbibed the message, accepted what she was being told, she followed the life the LDS were setting down for her, she took her lead form the folk around her who all seemed to be swimming one way. It took her a long time to work it out and it ate up the last of her child baring years. She was not the only childless middle aged woman who slipped away from the church. I am guessing if we looked closer we’d find other sub groups the one size fits all underwear does not fit, and for who life structured in the LDS lifestyle is not fulfilling or happy.

go back and reread what you just wrote. You can avoid getting HIV by avoiding the high risk groups? Do you know who the 'high risk groups' ARE? According to the Global Health Council, the group most at risk are men who have sex with men, first and foremost (which means that homosexual sex is definitely going against your advice to avoid high risk groups), and intravenous drug users. Close after that comes...wait for it...women; especially women who have more than one partner, and the men who have sex with women who have more than one partner. Then comes...young people. Yep, anybody young. The group at lowest risk is women who only have sex with other women.

Yes judge the risk accordingly. Gay man be very careful, gay women have a great time. If this were just a matter of personal safety then the LDS would be promoting lesbianism.

Pretty good reason for celibacy til marriage, and monogamy after, wouldn't you say?

If one leaves in fear it might seem like that. Otherwise just take the appropriate precautions. Whilst there is always riisk it is no more helpful to overstate that risk as understate it.

Those who 'come to the table' just for the physical jollies...they are certainly demeaning something rather special, seems to me. Not just that, but I have also found that people might SAY all they want is the physical, but when the relationship bombs the heart still gets broken...and the other person in that relationship walks away with something irreplacable.

You still seem to have this picture of someone taken or stealing something from someone else. On the emotional side you seem to think the process is only destructive. Sure there are broken hearts, and sure there are emotional car crashes, and that is part and parcel of growing up and into yourself.