Is Matthew 21:22 blatantly wrong?

[Justin108]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

[marco]

As I demonstrated in an earlier post [url=http://debatingchristianity.com/fo ... 47]Post 52[/url], this verse is part of a story. In the appropriate context the verse is not misleading.

When people quote parts of the bible out of context it can be misleading. This is true for any text. I can quote from a scientific book and ignore context to make the text appear misleading.

You may have thought that what you said proved the verse was not misleading. You didn't.
And context isn't the issue here, though of course in seeking an explanation for a phrase context is usually of crucial importance. Christ has just (bewilderingly) cursed a fig tree for not producing figs out of season and the tree withers. He then issues his contentious statement, with a proviso about faith (which presumably is your appeal to context.) As I have said, if the statement means that only those who are completely devoid of any stain that might impair faith miraculous, then the statement is an empty one. If you had wings you could fly is a similar suggestion. I am contending that to tell simple folk that they will get what they ask for is effectively to lie to them, since they will believe what is being said and they won't subject the words to contextual criticism. It is deceitful small print without a caveat emptor.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 71 by marco]

Telling people to have faith when they pray is not deceitful. It is a charge to those who would listen. If I were to tell a homeless man if you have a lot of money, you can buy what you want. Is this statement deceitful, because the man is currently homeless. No, it is a true statement, that he may not be currently able to understand or experience.

The way Jesus talked about faith was in a similar way we talk about currency. Faith is the currency system God has chosen to "do business" with humans. Those who have faith in large quantities (lot of money) can do great works and see more supernatural activity. Those who have little faith (little money) will not do great works.

Money is a tool used to acquire goods and services. Faith is a tool used to acquire goods and services from God.

Because our economy depends heavily on money and not on the barter system, it is a little easier to understand this today, than in times past. This doesn't mean those around Jesus did not understand this. In time the disciples understood and would say the same things themselves when they went out to preach.

[marco]

Telling people to have faith when they pray is not deceitful. It is a charge to those who would listen. If I were to tell a homeless man if you have a lot of money, you can buy what you want. Is this statement deceitful, because the man is currently homeless. No, it is a true statement, that he may not be currently able to understand or experience.

You are confusing the issue using circumlocution.

Telling the homeless man that lots of money buys things you want is offering a truism, and a rather insensitive one at that. Christ telling people that faith can get you what you want is heavily conditional on what God allows, what you ask for and the nature of faith. Analysis shows that the promise is completely empty since all can be ruled out as having such faith. It has the same cunningness as "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", except that this was cautionary while the former was promissory.

The way Jesus talked about faith was in a similar way we talk about currency. Faith is the currency system God has chosen to "do business" with humans. Those who have faith in large quantities (lot of money) can do great works and see more supernatural activity. Those who have little faith (little money) will not do great works.

You would think so, wouldn't you? However there is no practical manifestation that this is true. I think we say such things more in hope than in verified knowledge. But hope is not a bad thing. The Romans said: dum spiro, spero - while I live, I hope, and they built an empire without faith in Christ.


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[rspielmann]

"Faith is the currency system God has chosen to "do business" with humans."

What, exactly, do you mean by 'faith' and how does one acquire it?

[KingandPriest]

"Faith is the currency system God has chosen to "do business" with humans."

What, exactly, do you mean by 'faith' and how does one acquire it?

Faith is the trust we have in a particular statement or idea based on some form of evidence. This evidence can be experiential, empirical, tautological, ephemeral, testimonial, or supernatural.

A person acquires faith by believing or accepting the evidence as true.

People acquire faith in the big bang theory by believing or accepting the evidence of a currently expanding universe. Since the universe is expanding, they believe it must have been smaller at some time in the past. No one can witness this, but they believe by faith. They accept the current evidence and some mathematical calculations which provide supporting evidence.

People acquire faith in God by accepting or believing the evidence of God in their life. This can be the evidence of intelligent design, experience, supernatural phenomenon, testimonies or other.

The evidence necessary to have faith, varies from person to person. Your requirements of evidence are different from mine. Each person makes a decision of what evidence, and how much is necessary to have faith. It is unique, like a fingerprint.

So when a person acquires faith, they can exchange this faith currency for goods and services. Some exchange faith for knowledge. This can be knowledge of spiritual matters and personal development. Other exchange faith for miracles. Others exchange faith for favor.

This is why the bible often makes reference to how a person acquired something from God. The phrase "by faith" is used to explain the transaction.

Acts 3:16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.

Acts 15:9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:17-18 "I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

Romans 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed"a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood"to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished"

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Romans 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about"but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Romans 4:13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abrahams offspring"not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down)

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm.

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we live by faith, not by sight.

Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you.

Galatians 3:11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because the righteous will live by faith.

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

Imagine a economy where you could exchange faith for goods and services. Now imagine a economy where you can exchange faith for righteousness. This is God's economic system.