Is Matthew 21:22 blatantly wrong?

[Justin108]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 56 by Justin108]

Are you saying that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back is guilty of either insufficient belief, or lack of forgiveness? There isn't a single believing, forgiving person in recorded history who has prayed for his limbs to grow back?

First off, there is no way of knowing that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back did not have this occur. Not every miracle has been recorded. Additionally, we know historical records have been destroyed all over the world. It is possible that this has happened before.

Secondly, what I am saying is that no human person is able to identify when all criteria is met. How do I know if a person has doubt or not? Only God knows. How do I know if a person is still holding unforgiveness in their heart. I cannot. Only God knows a persons heart and their thoughts.

Please reread what you have said here. Logically, yes, there is a possibility that limb regrowth due to miracle did happen, but that we have no records of it...however, look at what you are now reduced to doing in order to defend the claim. Instead of providing evidence that shows that limb regrowth DID happen, you are now saying that it possibly did happen, but that we don't have the records for it.
Without the records, why are you defending the claim? This is an admission that you don't have the evidence. Without evidence, the claim should be abandoned.

[marco]

It's statistically highly unlikely that there is not a single recorded instance of the criteria being met

There is of course the other problem of relating some event to a preceding prayer. When many who pray are granted their wish through the benevolence of blind chance, God is given the credit.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 62 by marco]

Just to clarify, prayer is not a wish based system. God is not a genie who comes out of a lamp and grants 3 wishes.

The word prayer in the bible can be defined as a supplication, petition, or to seek favor.

[marco]

[Replying to post 62 by marco]

Just to clarify, prayer is not a wish based system. God is not a genie who comes out of a lamp and grants 3 wishes.

The word prayer in the bible can be defined as a supplication, petition, or to seek favor.

When one is told: "Ask and you'll receive" there is an expectation that help is available with a pressing problem. It might be unreasonable to expect prayer to grant 3 wishes as you say, but when a child is crying out for help it seems that God and not a genie is needed. He always seems to be too busy, even for children. That is the basic difficulty we have with Christ's promise. It makes no sense. One would be led to believe there is no one at home.

I've no problem with your definitions, though I don't see the need for them.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 64 by marco]

The definitions give you a basis for what to expect.

Furthermore, when you quote "Ask and you'll receive" and do not provide the appropriate context, you will do the same thing the originator of this post did. By ignoring the context of the statements surrounding that statement, you will be in error. If you attempted to do the same thing in an academic setting, you would be told that you are in error to take a statement out of context.

As I wrote in a different post, just because I read an entire physics book, that does not make me a physicist. If I just spout out claims that a statement in chapter 1 is illogical, but do not take into consideration what is in chapter 2, the text book is not illogical. What has happened is that I have made an error in cherry picking text without a complete understanding. Many take a single quote of scripture and claim it is illogical or can be disproved based on science. When we actually take a look at the full context of the scripture or the applicable history, we find evidence to support what was written and not reject.

If I just list a equation from a physics textbook and do not provide the accompanying explanation, the equation or statement will seem illogical. For example, here is a statement from a physics text book taken out of context:

"quantum theory is concerned with the discrete nature of many phenomena"

If I take this excerpt, I can poke holes and show how quantum theory is unable to explain many natural phenomena.

Instead, I would need the full context of the statement to understand what type of natural phenomena is referenced:

"Classical mechanics approximates nature as continuous, while quantum theory is concerned with the discrete nature of many phenomena at the atomic and subatomic level and with the complementary aspects of particles and waves in the description of such phenomena"

Context is important.

Finally, the bible does clarify that the method a person is answered in prayer may not be exactly what they desired. We are told that God does things for our greater good.

Isa 55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,� says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

Romans 8: 26-28 "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose."

[JLB32168]

First off, there is no way of knowing that every single person who has ever prayed for their limbs to grow back did not have this occur. Not every miracle has been recorded.

Indeed there are quite a few hearsay stories of people who did indeed witness such miracles. Smith Wigglesworth told a man with no legs to go buy shoes and when the man put his peg-legs into the shoes legs began to grow, although very slowly. I read a case were woman without a jawbone who received prayer in Mexico and one grew.

Psychology Today has done reports on “faith healings� and how they actually work when they shouldn’t. Most scientists cope with that evidence through simple skepticism (i.e. the ostensible "cure" had no connection with the outcome; the time course of recovery would be exactly the same, etc.)

Even Tibetan monks have recorded numerous examples of what people would term miraculous healing upon themselves. You have eighty-year old monks that look no older than forty. One can search the Internet for a few photos.

[marco]

"Classical mechanics approximates nature as continuous, while quantum theory is concerned with the discrete nature of many phenomena at the atomic and subatomic level and with the complementary aspects of particles and waves in the description of such phenomena"

Context is important.

Yes I know context is important. It is clever of you to take us through classical mechanics (which I spent a few years studying) to illustrate that the simple statement : "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer" requires us to examine a mass of footnotes, as we do when moving through Homer or Virgil. If these words were addressed to, say, Cordelia by her father, King Lear, then we would not apply them in a general way. If we must call down an entire volume of theology before we can penetrate the apparently simple meaning then there must have been much head-scratching in the days when Christ offered advice.

Basically you are saying there is a great deal of small print attached to the offer. In modern parlance this is called sharp practice. But I shall accept your legal defence of what at first sight seems an offer too good to refuse but I don't for a moment believe that those hearing the words understood them with many conditions attached. They are simply a grandiose advertisement for the largesse of the Lord. Go well.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 67 by marco]

there must have been much head-scratching in the days when Christ offered advice.

There was a lot of head scratching when Jesus spoke. Through out the synoptic gospels you see the disciples repeatedly asking Jesus what he meant. The scholars of the day would also ask him questions in an attempt to confuse or find error in his teaching. They did not.

The book of John Ch 3 records an exchange between a scholar of the day and Jesus.

John 3:1-15

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.�

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.�

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?� Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!�

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.�

9 “How can this be?� Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,� said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Ask yourself, if what Jesus said about himself was true, how hard would it have been to explain spiritual things to the people of that day. Even today, we have a hard time grasping the concept of spiritual teachings.

So yes you have to read the fine print because God is not as simple as a imaginary figure. Any god which can be explained in simple terms is not God. Should the human mind be able to fully comprehend a supernatural omnipotent God?

We don't even fully understand the world we can see.

[marco]

Ask yourself, if what Jesus said about himself was true, how hard would it have been to explain spiritual things to the people of that day. Even today, we have a hard time grasping the concept of spiritual teachings.

So yes you have to read the fine print because God is not as simple as a imaginary figure. Any god which can be explained in simple terms is not God. Should the human mind be able to fully comprehend a supernatural omnipotent God?

We don't even fully understand the world we can see.

You are changing horses in mid-stream. Of course discussion on God's nature is fraught with linguistic difficulties. We were discussing instructions in good behaviour. The direction of the wind, by the way, can be ascertained as golfers do by tossing up some light wisps of grass.

When we are discussing some instruction for praying then it is reasonable to suppose we can get a simple answer. A more honest answer than the one given would be: When you pray you will not always get what you ask for. OR, you will get what God wants to give you, which may be nothing, most of the time. The statement: Ask and you'll receive is misleading and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the difficulties of discussing the omnipotent.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 69 by marco]

I will admit those questions about God's nature can be a totally separate topic. It was meant to be rhetorical.

I agree the statement ask and you shall receive can be misleading when taken out of context. This is why I pointed out a person must see the context. Was the statement made as a stand alone statement, or part of a paragraph on prayer. Were additional statements included at the same time.

Also, ask and you shall receive is not what was written in Matthew 21:22. It reads:
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

As I demonstrated in an earlier post [url=http://debatingchristianity.com/fo ... 47]Post 52[/url], this verse is part of a story. In the appropriate context the verse is not misleading.

When people quote parts of the bible out of context it can be misleading. This is true for any text. I can quote from a scientific book and ignore context to make the text appear misleading.