One common objection that I get in regards to the supernatural is that it has no reasonable meaning. One specific objection is that the definition of the supernatural contradicts what nature means. Some skeptics who make this claim even go as far as saying that everything is natural, and claims of anything being supernatural are just superstition and thus misunderstood or unknown natural phenomena. With this in mind, I will attempt to establish a coherent definition for the supernatural along with 4 criteria points to further elaborate on that definition. I will also define "nature" since the supernatural is defined in terms of it. Keep in mind this is more about "meaning" and not necessarily proving the existence of. After all, having a good definition for some thing should be the first step since only then you can know what it is that you need to prove, if provable. I'll leave it up to you guys to let me know whether or not if my definition is coherent or unreasonable.
Definitions:
Supernatural: any place, person (or being), or phenomena that is not of or from nature nor restricted by its laws.
Nature: The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
Criteria (further elaboration on key parts of my definition and the supernatural in general):
1. Any person, place, or thing that's not from nature. Some may say that when God visits Earth, or more generally the natural world, He's natural at that point. I disagree, just because God is in nature, that doesn't mean He's from nature.
2. Not restricted to the laws of nature. Something would be call supernatural if it was able to violate an *authentic* or *true* law of nature. The words "authentic" or "true" are emphasized to indicate that a supernatural event is is the breaking of a *true* law of nature not simply just a product of misunderstanding the laws of nature or ignorance of a law of nature. If it's an *authentic* or *true* law of nature, then it would be an actual correct law of nature that was broken.
3. Immaterial. This is a tricky criteria since critics would say logic or any other concept is immaterial; does that therefore make it supernatural? To solve this issue for the time being I have considered restricting this criteria to only applying to immaterial *beings* and not just anything immaterial.
*As an exception, I'd also say that some supernatural events can also be observed. For example, Jesus walking on water would be an example of what a supernatural event that we could observe. You'd know this was supernatural by considering my criteria #2 which is right before this one.*
4. Not explainable as a law of nature. I don't believe that science has to be only a pursuit of knowledge under the paradigm of naturalism. Therefore, science in the future may choose to openly explore supernatural aspects and potentially gain some understanding of how the supernatural works, enough to class something as being supernatural. That is, it wouldn't fall into the category of any of the laws of nature. This would be like explaining something to be immaterial.
What is "supernatural"
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Post #81
Everything in the known Universe is material. Without evidence of anything to the contrary, there is no reason to assume otherwise. In fact we should be certain of what we have learned until new information contradicting it comes to light (or we find out we have formulated an incorrect hypothesis based on the information that was available).If we follow your reasoning, then I'd say scientists have more to know or more to add to their knowledge since they have not explored all or every aspect of the Universe which is how we ascertain knowledge to begin with. Besides that, your point does not answer for or prove the claim that "everything" in the Universe is material which was my original point to begin with.
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Angel
Post #82
There's more to the Universe than what we "currently" know. Things exists independent of if we know about them or not so I don't follow your logic of equating only what we know as being the only thing that exists. In other words, the *known Universe* does not equal *the entire universe*. Perhaps the supernatural realm exists without our knowledge of it. Either way, I'm asking for PROOF of the "entire" Universe, and you keep giving me irrelevant points. I'm asking for proof about the nature of the ENTiRE Universe as a whole, not just the "known" universe. Also, no evidence for the supernatural does not disprove the supernatural. We may not have evidence, YET. So that's another illogical or irrelevant point you keep bringing up.Gonzo wrote:Everything in the known Universe is material. Without evidence of anything to the contrary, there is no reason to assume otherwise. In fact we should be certain of what we have learned until new information contradicting it comes to light (or we find out we have formulated an incorrect hypothesis based on the information that was available).If we follow your reasoning, then I'd say scientists have more to know or more to add to their knowledge since they have not explored all or every aspect of the Universe which is how we ascertain knowledge to begin with. Besides that, your point does not answer for or prove the claim that "everything" in the Universe is material which was my original point to begin with.
Post #83
Your right, we don't have proof unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, gryphons, and manticores don't exist, because a negative proof is rather hard to come by. The thing is it doesn't matter we work with what we have. Sometimes scientists assume things exist because evidence points towards it, but they don't actually know whether it does or not, like quantum physics particles. People writing stories thousands of years ago about "supernatural" being isn't evidence of anything other than imagination. Think about all the various Gods and how they were attributed to things, as I said, many are mutually exclusive, all seem to be products of imagination, there's no compelling reason or evidence to suggest otherwise.There's more to the Universe than what we "currently" know. Things exists independent of if we know about them or not so I don't follow your logic of equating only what we know as being the only thing that exists. In other words, the *known Universe* does not equal *the entire universe*. Perhaps the supernatural realm exists without our knowledge of it. Either way, I'm asking for PROOF of the "entire" Universe, and you keep giving me irrelevant points. I'm asking for proof about the nature of the ENTiRE Universe as a whole, not just the "known" universe. Also, no evidence for the supernatural does not disprove the supernatural. We may not have evidence, YET. So that's another illogical or irrelevant point you keep bringing up.
Bring me some valid evidence and I will concede, until then why believe in fairy tales?
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Angel
Post #84
I've submitted what I think is evidence of a supernatural occurrence to this part of the forum----->Gonzo wrote: Bring me some valid evidence and I will concede, until then why believe in fairy tales?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11256
The scriptures about God may be 1,000+ year old stories, but I believe because I have had experiences.
Post #85
Look to the right of the pole of the fence, the fence stops, plenty of room for a car to drive through.I've submitted what I think is evidence of a supernatural occurrence to this part of the forum----->
How are they any different from people of any other religion that have had experiences?The scriptures about God may be 1,000+ year old stories, but I believe because I have had experiences.
from hereOne experience central to major religions around the world is that of transcendence, the idea of almost losing a sense of self to the feeling that there’s something bigger out there. Now scientists at the University of Missouri say they’ve located that experience in our brains. All the people studied, from Buddhist monks in meditation to Francescan nuns in prayer, experience this transcendence. And they all have decreased activity in the right parietal lobe of the brain. That area has to do with senses such as orienting yourself in the space around you. The study was published in Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science.
I don't know if your feeling was transcendence specifically, and I'm actually pretty curious. Could you describe it to me please?
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Angel
Post #86
Just so people will know what you're referring to here, it's from the link and videos from another forum topic ---->, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11256.Gonzo wrote:Look to the right of the pole of the fence, the fence stops, plenty of room for a car to drive through.Angel wrote:I've submitted what I think is evidence of a supernatural occurrence to this part of the forum----->
If I'm not mistaken, the gate pole that you're referring to is the one that is the furthest on the left in the cop car's camera range. I've looked at that particular pole, and I disagree with you. My reason is that as the cop car's headlights starts to approach the gate towards where the other car went through, you see the lights reflect off of a *top* horizontal pole that connects two vertical standing gate poles together. One of those vertical standing poles is the pole that you're referring to. If you were to go by this alone, you can say that the fence does continue to the pole that you're referring to via the *top* horizontal pole. What's left now is the links that would make up the rest of the gate that would be between the top horizontal pole and the two vertical standing poles that it connects together or touches. And although, it may be hard to see but I see the links between these 3 gate poles. The lights on the police car briefly reflect off of them as it approaches the gate. At times, they look like gray colored blurs. The reason why they are hard to see and how even sometimes they appear as not to be there is because the links are very thin. In fact, without light shining on them, if you're at a distance and it's dark out or nighttime, it would appear as if they're not there. So when the cop car's headlights are not reflecting off of the links on the gate, they are barely visible but at one point you do see them there. (mainly referring to the area where the car went through the gate and where the cop car subsequently pulled up to).
You also have to factor in the reporting. The commentator or host on the video mentions that the cops reported that the gate was intact.
Angel wrote:The scriptures about God may be 1,000+ year old stories, but I believe because I have had experiences.
My experience did not involve any feeling. Some of them have involved being told something that no one else but me could've known, and another experience involved seeing entities. The article you referenced itself mentions that the findings reported does not minimize religion and goes on to say that spiritual experiences may cause the decrease in brain activity in the right parietal lobe. So the article itself is not even claiming to have disproven spiritual experiences but at best shown that it may cause neurological reactions or effects.Gonzo wrote:How are they any different from people of any other religion that have had experiences?
"One experience central to major religions around the world is that of transcendence, the idea of almost losing a sense of self to the feeling that there’s something bigger out there. Now scientists at the University of Missouri say they’ve located that experience in our brains. All the people studied, from Buddhist monks in meditation to Francescan nuns in prayer, experience this transcendence. And they all have decreased activity in the right parietal lobe of the brain. That area has to do with senses such as orienting yourself in the space around you." The study was published in Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science.
from here
One supernatural experience I had was years ago at my grandma's church. It involved a pastor telling me about something wrong that I was doing. It was a lady pastor and she did not ask me not one question to gain any information from me. She came up to me as she was praying for people at random, and told me the particular bad thing I was doing, I had to stop doing. This bad thing I was doing was in my grandma's or Uncle's house, and none of them or anyone else ever saw me doing it. Even if my uncle and grandma did, they would've let me know for sure and definitely would've disciplined me (they were religious as well). This woman pastor was referred to as being a prophet. She wasn't one who just gave information about the future but also of even current events in people's lives that God revealed to her. She can't control the ability (or spiritual gift, rather) and it doesn't happen everytime. She doesn't know when God will reveal things to her neither, it just happens spontaneously most times.Gonzo wrote:I don't know if your feeling was transcendence specifically, and I'm actually pretty curious. Could you describe it to me please?
Post #87
Its late so I'll take another look tomorrow.Just so people will know what you're referring to here, it's from the link and videos from another forum topic ---->, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11256. ...
Yeah your right. Interesting implications though, since if that's true a religious experience could be artificially created.My experience did not involve any feeling. Some of them have involved being told something that no one else but me could've known, and another experience involved seeing entities. The article you referenced itself mentions that the findings reported does not minimize religion and goes on to say that spiritual experiences may cause the decrease in brain activity in the right parietal lobe. So the article itself is not even claiming to have disproven spiritual experiences but at best shown that it may cause neurological reactions or effects.
I'm claim no connection to God, but I feel I may know the bad thing you were doing. Were you masturbating?One supernatural experience I had was years ago at my grandma's church. It involved a pastor telling me about something wrong that I was doing. It was a lady pastor and she did not ask me not one question to gain any information from me. She came up to me as she was praying for people at random, and told me the particular bad thing I was doing, I had to stop doing. This bad thing I was doing was in my grandma's or Uncle's house, and none of them or anyone else ever saw me doing it. Even if my uncle and grandma did, they would've let me know for sure and definitely would've disciplined me (they were religious as well). This woman pastor was referred to as being a prophet. She wasn't one who just gave information about the future but also of even current events in people's lives that God revealed to her. She can't control the ability (or spiritual gift, rather) and it doesn't happen everytime. She doesn't know when God will reveal things to her neither, it just happens spontaneously most times.
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Angel
Post #88
I'm in the process of finding out how can I obtain the entire video from the cop car that night but it seems I need to file some legal papers for that. Maybe I need an attorney as well or hopefully someone else will get it and release the whole video over the internet.Gonzo wrote:Its late so I'll take another look tomorrow.Just so people will know what you're referring to here, it's from the link and videos from another forum topic ---->, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=11256. ...
You can take your guesses but I honestly can not mention it. It was wrong and that's as far as I feel that I should go.Gonzo wrote: I'm claim no connection to God, but I feel I may know the bad thing you were doing.
Post #89
That would be useful to look over. Good luck. At 1:33 in the large video you can see there is an opening next to the right most pole.I'm in the process of finding out how can I obtain the entire video from the cop car that night but it seems I need to file some legal papers for that. Maybe I need an attorney as well or hopefully someone else will get it and release the whole video over the internet.
Well then I can't really know then. It's quite possible that it was a common occurrence for people your age to do. Or that your Grandparents witnessed it with out you knowing and told the pastor to talk to you. But those aren't proven obviously, just other possibilities based on the information you gave me.You can take your guesses but I honestly can not mention it. It was wrong and that's as far as I feel that I should go.
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Angel
Post #90
The cop drove right up to the spot on the fence where this ghost or whoever it was driving went through. I don't know if you factored in my theory regarding how the gate links would be hard to see at night but I found a good quality video on the web of this incident. You can also right click the video to zoom in or to zoom out.Gonzo wrote: That would be useful to look over. Good luck. At 1:33 in the large video you can see there is an opening next to the right most pole.
http://www.trutv.com/video/hot-pursuit/ ... =truTVshlk
Here you can see as the cop car pulls up to the fence and around the same area the car went through, the fence was all intact. You can see the gate links are there which shows that there was no gap or hole in the area where you're claiming there was.
