Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

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Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #1

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelation 20 verse 6 speaks of Christ ruling with others for the 1,000 years. As one if Jehovahs Witnesses I understand ...

a) Jesus will rule over humans beings (not spirits) that are NOT designated as kings
b) The subjects (those not designated as kings) will live on earth
c) Jesus will not relocate from heaven to rule from a specific location on earth but will rather be in heaven ruling over the earth.

Please share your thoughts on any or all of the points. How do you understand Revelation 20:6 as regards to
a) subjects : who ir what will he rule over?
b: location where will the subjects his rule live?
c) location where will Jesus (and his co-rulers) be situated during this rule?
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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #91

Post by myth-one.com »


JehovahsWitness wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:
onewithhim wrote:You say that the original caretakers were NOT made of the dust of the earth. Then what does this mean?

Genesis 2:7,8,KJV: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Those verses are obviously referring to the creation of man.

The original caretakers of the earth were not men.
Can you clarify this point with a bible verse?
Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:
And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)
Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased.

Jesus' immediate response was:
Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)
Satan was not a man.

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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #92

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 91 by myth-one.com]

Just to clarify you believe that when God originally created the planet earth, he gave it to Satan as part of his (YHWH/Jehovahs ) original purpose and that was what he pronounced "good"?

That after having created millions, perhaps bilions of angels to live with him in the spirit realm, he originally created the physical planet earth for angels to take care of?

(these are not rhetorical question, please answer them if you feel so inclined)
GENESIS 1:28 New International Version
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
Why then did God explicitly gave humans dominion over the planet and everything that lived on it (ses Gen 1:28 above)? And how do angels fit into the above instruction?


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PSALMS 115:16 - Christian Standard Bible

The heavens are the LORD's, but the earth he has given to the human race
GENESIS 2:8 - NWT
Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed
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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #93

Post by JehovahsWitness »

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)
DOES SATAN OWN THE EARTH OR RUN IT?
  • Note Jesus wasnt offered the planet earth he was shown the kingdoms of the world/earth*. That he was referring to the governmental rulerships/powers/kingships ect is evident since he (Satan) went on to say "All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them" (NWT "their" glory). There is only one planet earth so by refering to the plural it is clear Satan was refering to something other than the earth itself, something that could exist in the plural.

    * Note the bible uses several different words when referring to the "world" which sometimes refer to the literal planet or the ground and sometime to the people or the system set up by people.
THE KINGDOMS
  • A kingdom is a basically a king or ruler plus a domain over which that ruler exercises power. Satan claimed power over all the kingdoms of the world namely the various forms (systems) of rulership that existed . It is for this reason the bible refers to satan as "the god of this world", Jesus called him "the prince of this world**".

    **NOTE It would be a mistake to conclude however that God has renounced ownership or sovereignty of any part of his spiritual or physical creation. This is not merely semantic, once sovereignty (ultimate right to rule) is renounced it cannot legitimately be reclaimed except by mandate of the souvereign. For this reason we can understand why Jehovah (YHWH), remains and always will remain the Sovereign Lord over everything that exists.
    To illustrate: A man leaves his home in the charge of tenents. They are granted the power to organize, decorate and sublet to whom they choose. For all effects and purposes the house is "theirs". However since the man keeps the deeds of the house, what can he do that he would have not right to do had he renounced legal owwnership of the house? That's right, he can at any time EVICT the tenents. Satan runs the home but fortunately for us, he doesnt own the house!
CONCLUSION Satan for a short time has indeed been granted the freedom to rule over mankind and control the "kingdoms" that exist on the planet. It would however, be a gross misunderstanding to extrapolate from that that Satan owned the planet or that the earth was created for spirits rather than humans.



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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #94

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote:
onewithhim wrote:You say that the original caretakers were NOT made of the dust of the earth. Then what does this mean?

Genesis 2:7,8,KJV: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Those verses are obviously referring to the creation of man.

The original caretakers of the earth were not men.

=====================================================

Once again, you cannot understand this if you do not understand the apparent contradiction in Genesis 1:1,2 and verse 31:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)
Formless, void, and dark is not the same as very good.

So God did not create anything formless, void, and dark.

Likewise, God did not create a "dark hunk of elements" first as you have claimed previously.

There is no reason to believe that God ever made anything that was not originally created as good!

Then why does verse two state that the earth was without form, void, and dark after being created in verse one?

Other translations of the original Hebrew text indicate that something occurred and the earth had reached this state. For example, the New International Version of the Bible renders the same verses as follows:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty; darkness was over the surface of the deep... (Genesis 1:1-2)
That is, God originally created the heavens and the earth good in verse one, and over a period of time the earth had become formless, void, and dark.

Between verse one and verse two a period of time obviously occurred. Based on current scientific estimates, the time period between verse one and two was approximately 4.55 billion years. This is the current estimated age of the earth.

The following "creation" described in detail beginning in Genesis 1:3 is actually a re-creation of a decimated earth originally created good in verse one. This re-creation can be traced back to approximately 6,000 years ago. This idea that the creation described in detail in Genesis is actually a re-creation of a decimated earth is supported by other scripture verses:
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they (mankind) are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)
Renue means to restore to an original condition.

God created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 and gave dominion over the earth to Lucifer and angels under his control.

But sin produces chaos -- where sin is defined as the transgression of the commandments of God.

Rebelling against God by Lucifer (Satan) and a third of the angels resulted in the good earth as originally created in Genesis 1:1 reaching a state of no form, void, and dark in Genesis 1:2.

So in Genesis 1:3, God returns and begins a re-creation of a decimated earth as described in verse two.

The obvious first step was to turn the lights back on:
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)
Mankind was created and given dominion over the earth in this re-creation of the decimated earth.

Plan "A" was giving immortal beings dominion over the earth.

That did not work out.

Plan "B" was giving mortal man dominion over the earth.

Man is being groomed to replace the immortal beings which failed in plan "A."

The immortal angels had no choice in the matter.

Mankind must individually choose to accept or reject taking part in everlasting life, after experiencing a short taste of human life.
I'll respond to your comments one at a time (as I hope you will do with my posts).

1) Yes, you are right, Gen.2:7 refers to the creation of man. It seems that after man was created, then God created the Garden of Eden, placing Adam---the man---in it. So, how can you say that the original caretakers were angels?

2) I don't understand why you question God's statement in verse 31 of the first chapter. He had just created everything on the earth, including man. Chapter 2 is not recording what happened after Gen.1:31. Chapter 2 is simply an overview of what happened in chapter 1. These two chapters are giving us the same situation, just a bit more detail about Adam and Eve in chapter 2. Chapter 2 also gives the commandment to stay away from the one tree in the middle of the Garden, which chapter 1 did not mention. Again---more detail about the man. Chapter 1 had more detail about the creation of everything else.

3) You say that God "did not create anything that was formless, void and dark." Well, he obviously did, because Gen.1:1 says he did. And this was before he created all the things that he wanted the planet to have---vegetation, animals, people, etc.

4) You hang a lot of importance on the word "Now" in the NIV's rendering of verse 2. I believe it is an inordinate amount of importance. (This is the way the New World Translation renders it also, and probably other versions as well.) It doesn't necessarily mean that there had been something going on between verses 1 and 2 that was not recorded. Your view of this is a lot of imagination and assumption. Your reliance on the word "Now" is puzzling. People use it often, even when accentuating what they are about to say: "Now, look here! Listen to me!

5) I do believe that the planet is 5 billion years old. Verse 1 in chapter 1 does not have a problem with that. It took God 5 billion years to create that dark, formless, desolate planet. He then went on the make things on it that he finally deemed "very good."

6) Psalm 104 does not speak of the original creation of man. It is a poem of sorts that is meant to praise God for all of his works, things that took place even in King David's time.

"How many your works are, O Jehovah! You have made all of them in wisdom. The earth is full of what you have made. There is the sea, so great and wide, teeming with countless living things, both small and great....All of them wait for you to give them their food in its season. What you give them, they gather. When you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things. When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit [life-force], they die and return to the dust. If you send out your spirit, they are created, and you renew the surface of the ground." (Psalm 104:24-30)

Doesn't this just show us that God creates life by giving a fetus, whether animal or human, the breath of life? This He does daily, even now. How this convinces you somehow that God didn't create humans until much later in the creation process than what we have always gleaned from Genesis chapters 1 and 2, I don't have a clue.

7) You say that the "immortal" angels had no choice in the matter of who takes care of the planet, right? I disagree. All of God's intelligent creations always have had a choice as to what they would do, in any situation. He doesn't create robots.

8) I agree that all humans must choose whether or not they want to live in the universe with YHWH as their Ruler, or not. The ones that do choose to obey Him and have a loving relationship with Him will live on this earth forever, just as YHWH wanted it in the first place, as exemplified in the first 2 chapters of Genesis.



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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #95

Post by myth-one.com »


JehovahsWitness wrote:Just to clarify you believe that when God originally created the planet earth, he gave it to Satan as part of his (YHWH/Jehovahs ) original purpose and that was what he pronounced "good"?
No.

Lucifer was given "dominion" over the earth. Lucifer became Satan, the snake, or devil.

That was part of His original plan.

Man was not in the original plan.

He pronounced everything He made as being very good.
JehovahsWitness wrote:That after having created millions, perhaps bilions of angels to live with him in the spirit realm, he originally created the physical planet earth for angels to take care of?
Where do you get this stuff?

Those are your numbers.

My guess is that He created the heavens and earth first.

Then created or transferred angels to care for the earth.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
GENESIS 1:28 New International Version
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
Why then did God explicitly give humans dominion over the planet and everything that lived on it (ses Gen 1:28 above)? And how do angels fit into the above instruction?
Lucifer (Satan) and some angels under his command left the earth and warred against God. They were overcome and cast back down to the earth.

God returned and re-created the decimated neglected earth.

Man was then created and given dominion over every other physical being on the earth:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)
JehovahsWitness wrote:PSALMS 115:16 - Christian Standard Bible

The heavens are the LORD's, but the earth he has given to the human race
GENESIS 2:8 - NWT
Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed
Yes, man was given dominion over the earth.

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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #96

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 95 by myth-one.com]

Could you not skip over my post, please? I await your responses, myth-one.com.

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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #97

Post by myth-one.com »


onewithhim wrote:3) You say that God "did not create anything that was formless, void and dark." Well, he obviously did, because Gen.1:1 says he did.
Genesis 1:1 wrote:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Where does Genesis 1:1 say that?
onewithhim wrote:5) I do believe that the planet is 5 billion years old. Verse 1 in chapter 1 does not have a problem with that. It took God 5 billion years to create that dark, formless, desolate planet.

That comical! God re-created the heavens and the earth in six days:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:11)
But it took Him 5 billion years to create your dark, formless, void "stuff?"
onewithhim wrote:6) Psalm 104 does not speak of the original creation of man. It is a poem of sorts that is meant to praise God for all of his works, things that took place even in King David's time.
Thou (God) sendest forth thy spirit, they (mankind) are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalm 104:30)
Psalm 104:4 confirms that the re-creation of the earth and the creation of mankind beginning in Genesis 1:3 was a renewing of a decimated earth!
onewithhim wrote:7) You say that the "immortal" angels had no choice in the matter of who takes care of the planet, right?
No, you misunderstood.

The angels had no choice in being created as immortal beings.

Once an immortal being is created, it's a done deal. They are forced to exist for ever and ever. They cannot escape life through death. It's an impossibility.

That was my meaning.

Thus, angels had no choice in their creation. They can choose to obey or disobey the command to care for the earth. And in fact, some did and some did not.

Likewise, man has no choice in our physical birth into the mortal world. But once born, we must individually make the decision to accept or reject everlasting life!
onewithhim wrote:All of God's intelligent creations always have had a choice as to what they would do, in any situation. He doesn't create robots.
Now, you're talking about freedom of choice.

And we agree on that.

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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #98

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 97 by myth-one.com]

I am at a loss on how to continue discussing this with you. You seem to NOT be interested in what I say or how I came to think that way. And you take scriptures out of context to make a point, like Psalm 104. I wonder if you read the whole psalm.

Your comment "it took God 5 billion years to make a formless hunk and yet 6 days to create everything on it?" is beyond my little brain's ability to understand. I have agreed with you that YES, the planet is 5 billion years old! I do NOT agree that it took God six 24-hour days to create everything on it, and I have given my reasons many times. ("YOM" does not have to mean 24-hour days.) I asked you to explain Genesis 2:4 where it seems like the heavens and the earth were created in one day, but you have never responded to that except by saying that there is no word "day" in that verse, after which I showed you other versions, even the Interlinear, that actually HAVE the word "day" in that verse. You didn't respond after that.

Why? Are you fearful of facing your own misunderstandings?


We really don't know how many billions of years that the earth was being formed prior to Genesis 1:2. It might have been 1 or 2 billion, and THEN, after verse 2, 3 or 4 billion more to create all the things ON the planet. We know that as of today, science believes the earth to be 5 billion years old. Each "day" in Genesis is an unknown length of time, possibly being millions or even billions of years long.


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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #99

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote:
My guess is that He created the heavens and earth first.

Lucifer was given "dominion" over the earth. ... He pronounced everything He made as being very good.

Then created or transferred angels to care for the earth.

Lucifer (Satan) and some angels under his command left the earth and warred against God.

They were overcome and cast back down to the earth.

God returned and re-created the decimated neglected earth.

Man was then created and given dominion over every other physical being on the earth:

What scriptures did you use to establish the above timeline /order of events?
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Re: Location o Christ and his co-rulers during the millenium

Post #100

Post by myth-one.com »


onewithhim wrote:Each "day" in Genesis is an unknown length of time, possibly being millions or even billions of years long.
We actually know that each day in Genesis is a morning and an evening:
Genesis 1:5 . . . And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Genesis 1:8 . . . And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:13 . . .And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
So one day is the time required for the earth to make one rotation on its axis.

I doubt seriously if it was much different from about 24 hours.

Millions or billions of years is out of range!

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