Are the Caesars the true saviors of Israel?

[Willum]

Isaiah 9: 6-7 seems to describe Augustus:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on Davids throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.


This seems to exactly describe Caesar Augustus, as the adoptive son of Caesar.
Augustus always complained about the burden of government on his shoulders.
He never wanted to be considered anything more than a counselor. He was made a mighty god, and "everlasting father," and "prince of peace," have certainly become true with the rule of Roman law, we still use, and the Pax Romana, 1000 years of peace, impossible without him.
He reigned on David's throne "Palestine is my footstool."
And the zeal of Yaweh, spelled Iove seems to enforce this.


While Isaiah 53 seems to describe Tiberius Caesar, exactly:

53 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering,and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didnt respect him.

4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didnt open his mouth.
As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he didnt open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.
He has caused him to suffer.
When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.
He will prolong his days, and Yahwehs pleasure will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied.
My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

These seems to describe Caesar Tiberius, afflicted in the face as he was, exiled as he was, as reviled as he was, passiveness of being led off to Rhodes, his royal whining, and the slaughter that occurred after his death.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Certainly seems so. Bear in mind Romans 13:1-2, which reads thusly:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God

Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

No I don't believe the apply to the Cesars at all - not least because the Jewish Messiah would have to be a descendent of the royal house of David and, in the verse you quoted a worshipper of the God YAHWEH, who demanded exclusive devotion. The Romans were most inclusive in their choice of Gods which is completely out of line with Isaiah's Messianic prophecies.

That said, I do believe Daniel recorded a series of prophecies relating the the Ceasars of Rome and their rivals one of which applies to Tiberius. So you are right, the bible does prophecy about the Roman rulers, just not there.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jews wandered around alot - there's no saying that the Caesars aren't descended from David, since genetics are so important to God. Maybe from the lost tribe, maybe from dalliance with a tradesman.

And Yahweh and Jove are invoked the identically, in name and sacrifices. Jove, is Iovi, which is identically Ee o u ae, they both enjoy Ram with Myrrh and Sytorax.

Then there is "what is a god?"
Catholics worship angels, which in other cultures would be considered gods.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jews wandered around alot - there's no saying that the Caesars aren't descended from David, since genetics are so important to God. Maybe from the lost tribe, maybe from dalliance with a tradesman.

And Yahweh and Jove are invoked the identically, in name and sacrifices. Jove, is Iovi, which is identically Ee o u ae, they both enjoy Ram with Myrrh and Sytorax.

Then there is "what is a god?"
Catholics worship angels, which in other cultures would be considered gods.

Point of order, Catholics do not worship angels. They may ask them for intercession with God, but do not directly worship them as if they are gods. The same with Mary and saints.

http://catholic-response.blogspot.ca/20 ... ngels.html

[JehovahsWitness]

Jews wandered around alot - there's no saying that the Caesars aren't descended from David, since genetics are so important to God. Maybe from the lost tribe, maybe from dalliance with a tradesman.

During the times of the Cesars the Jews kept meticulous records of their heritage because it was necessary for their temple system of worshp and of course it would be necessary even by their own traditions for any Messiah claimant to be able to prove their heritage.

After the 6th century BCE exile, families had to prove their heritage, records were kept in the temple and each family probably had their own records, as well those kept in the local synagogues. The Jews were very strict about not intermarrying with foreigners, so the changes of a Cesar being able to prove he was in fact a desdendant of David is pretty much zero.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Negative: I can't speak for the Jews, but the Romans did not keep good records of heritage. I would seriously doubt Jews kept good track of their offshoots and folks who moved out of country either, or those who simply left and chose to adopt surrounding cultures.

So, not a strong counter. Certainly God could pull it off - I mean look at the paradoxes associated with Jesus birth, and that's one person.

So, I see your lineage objection as a wash, unless there is some way to prove it.

[Replying to benchwrmer]

As to catholics not worshiping angels: From an outsider's perspective, Catholics worship saints and angels. From their own perspective they can call it what they want.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by Willum]

When I refered to family records, I was refering to the Jews not to the Romans. If you were a disenfranchized Jew and could not prove your heritage you could not enjoy certain privilages (see Ezra 8:2). The very existence of the geneological lists in the bible prove that such a concept was not foreign to the Jews and Josephus in the first century boasts of his lineage, proving that as a people they did keep records.

"[Priestly] genealogies were scrupulously kept and, when necessary, minutely investigated. [...] The very division of Israel into "houses" presupposes among them the existence of well-authenticated genealogies. Such divisions are mentioned in connection with the furnishing of wood (Ta'an. iv. 5: "house of Arak, tribe of Judah" ...). Hillel's pedigree is quoted (Yer. Ta'an. iv. 68a, bottom). Ben 'Azzai also speaks of a ("genealogical record"; Yeb. 49b)."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -genealogy

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Yes, but any line that derived the Caesar's wouldn't care one iota. Making it, a wash. I don't think it can be proven either way, making it possible, and leaving us with Isaiah, and anything other than hope that David and Caesars aren't related.

Besides, royalty back then - everybody was related - it - in hindsight, would be a miracle if they weren't related!

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't think it can be proven either way, making it possible

Making it extremely improbable.

It is a matter of historical fact that the Jews kept historical records, there is little doubt that Jewish culture discouraged intermarriage and absolutely not evidence that any of the Cesars were of Hebrew descendance. Thus to suggest that a claim that any of the Cesars were in fact desendance of the Royal line of David, is highly speculative.


JW