"Why should I let you into my Heaven?"

[Elijah John]

Evangelists frequently use this opening question when they attempt to "witness" and convert folks to their brand of Christianity.

They anticipate answers like "because I'm a good person", or "because I follow the Ten Commandments" answers that they are all too ready and eager to refute.

The answer they are looking for is really (as the Hymn states) " just as I am without one plea, but that Christ Jesus died for me.."

How 'bout this instead, "because of your mercy and compassion". Nothing more.

And that is still an answer that recognizes and appeals to God's grace, and not our own merits.

For debate, why do Evangelicals and JWs confine God's mercy to the cross?

[JehovahsWitness]

For debate, why do Evangelicals and JWs confine God's mercy to the cross?

I don't know what you mean by "confine God's mercy to the cross". As Jehovah's Witnesses we do believe Jesus died for mankind and that he gave his life in exchange for many. This is not unique to JWs, indeed you will be hard pushed to find any Christians (except perhaps some bizzare individual homegrown brands) that deny this most fundamental of Christian beliefs.

If you would like to explain what you mean by "confine God's mercy to the cross" in words, as one of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES I will be happy to scripturally tell you if this expression fits with our beliefs or not.

Regards,

JW

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... 017-march/

[2timothy316]

As Jehovah's Witnesses we do believe Jesus died for mankind and that he gave his life in exchange for many.

I 2nd this sentiment. Jesus didn't go do his Father's will under force. Jesus gave himself willingly. He understood the law of God and knew what had to be done.

I don't know why this is so difficult for many to accept? People willingly give their lives for others for all sorts of causes. In the name of nations for example. These give their lives with the thought that they are preserving a way of life. Sadly, these ways of life still ended because they are not backed by God Almighty. Who wouldn't give their life for all mankind if they had a promise from Jehovah Himself that mankind would have the opportunity to save themselves if they gave their life for them.

The soldiers that died so that others may live are called heroes by the nations. Jesus died so that no more will have to die at all by resolving a wrong done at mankind's beginning. Not only that but bringing back to life all those soldiers that died for their hopes for a better life. Jesus loves justice and supports it. This is shown by his willingness to die for the sins inflicted on us because of another person's selfishness and disregard for justice.

Jesus died but he is not dead. He was rewarded for his selfless attitude and actions. What did he get? Only the 2nd most powerful position in all of God's Kingdom. People think that death is so terrible that it is bigger than God Himself. Nonsense. Death is nothing to Jehovah but love and justice is not only everything to Him but it is Him.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by 2timothy316]


Do you feel like explaining in words what you mean by "confine God's mercy to the cross" so I can address the question of this expression applies to the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses?

JW

[Elijah John]

For debate, why do Evangelicals and JWs confine God's mercy to the cross?

I don't know what you mean by "confine God's mercy to the cross". As Jehovah's Witnesses we do believe Jesus died for mankind and that he gave his life in exchange for many. This is not unique to JWs, indeed you will be hard pushed to find any Christians (except perhaps some bizzare individual homegrown brands) that deny this most fundamental of Christian beliefs.

If you would like to explain what you mean by "confine God's mercy to the cross" in words, as one of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES I will be happy to scripturally tell you if this expression fits with our beliefs or not.

Regards,

JW

Meaning that you guys and Evangelicals exclude Jews, Muslims, fringe Christians etc from salvation as though you had the power to do so. Simply because we do not believe that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins.

No matter if sincere Jews and Muslims and "fringe" Christians still believe in God's compassion and mercy, His grace...they manage to do so without appeal to the cross.

Could it be that God's grace and mercy transcends even the cross, and is far more expansive and inclusive than you imagine?

[JehovahsWitness]

Meaning that you guys and Evangelicals exclude Jews, Muslims, fringe Christians etc from salvation as though you had the power to do so. Simply because we do not believe that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins.

That is smply not true. Who will be saved and who will not is not something you will ever hear a Jehovah's Witness say because we do not believe we have the power to decide on this matter. We can but present the bible truths as we understand them and leave all judgment in the hands of the Almighty.



Harmageddon: The destruction of the wicked.

The bible speaks about God destroying the incorribibly wicked. This is a merciful and righteous move, since he will not forever tolerate the suffering they cause. Who will be destroyed and who wil not be destroyed is not something we can say, since the Almighty will be the judge. Many millions perhaps that never had the opportunity to hear the good news or make the needed changes may well survive and we know that the work of preaching and teaching the gospel is severely restricted in many Islamic lands. Thus the fate of Muslims, Jews, fringe christians that reject the ransom rests in God's hands. It is inaccurate to say or imply Jehovah's Witnesses believe anything else.


Will there be everlasting life for those that reject the ransom?

Whether those ignorant of the import of Jesus' sacrifice learn this side of Armageddon or (as will no doubt be the case for the millions of people that have died without even hearing the name Jesus (or Jehovah) and are in line for a resurrection) after, ultimately every individual will have to meet God's standards for salvation and submit to Jesus as the ransomer and repurchaser of mankind.

Will any people who are presently Muslims, Jews, or fringe Christians be in paradise? Possibly many, God will judge. After Jesus has returned with his angels and manifested his supernatural kingship and power, will there be any people that remain atheists, Muslims and or don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah? Unlikely but only God can say. Will those people that, despite being shown mercy continue to reject God's standards in the paradise be given everlasting life? Absolutely not. The bible is catagoric on this, there may well be survival of Armageddon without knowledge of Christ but there will be not eternal salvation without him.




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JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , THE TRUE RELIGION and ...CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL

[ttruscott]

How 'bout this instead, "because of your mercy and compassion". Nothing more.

Because HIS mercy and compassion is perfect and unending, being an expression of HIS love, a core aspect of HIS being. Therefore if salvation, sinners being able to become HIS Bride in heaven, is merely an expression of HIS mercy, then we must accept universal salvation.

Of course then the continued warnings throughout the whole bible and by Jesus Himself about a horrible afterlife for those who ignore Spiritual truth and reject faith for secular considerations means that YHWH and Jesus know nothing about the afterlife at all and are either dribbling idiots or liars as Satan claims.

IF the book is filled with such warnings due to the self interest of mere men or are indeed Satanic influences doesn't matter - if all sinners are saved then the book itself is meaningless and worthless and has nothing to tell us of anymore importance than Aesop's fables, being the equivalent meaning to the secular materialist's acceptance of no afterlife at all.

The Gospel, the good news, is not how to live a good life but how to be saved from real sinfulness and the real consequences of that sin. If there are no consequences there is no gospel and all is for naught. Would Jesus really be a part of such fraud?

These are the thoughts that lead me to reject universal salvation and the fact that some are not saved but really are banished to the outer darkness proves that by their free will people really can remove themselves from all HIS perfect mercy and compassion so they are only under HIS justice. Since all sin is of an equal and ultimate disvalue then the method of bring some back to GOD after becoming evil must be within HIS mercy and compassion for a reason and not arbitrarily applied only to some, implying that if someone can be saved they will be saved which also means that if someone is not saved then they can't be saved.

And Jesus claimed to be the method of reconnecting sinners with their GOD. IF all that means is telling us how to live a good life to please GOD, then surely GOD's mercy and compassion will last for all as long as it takes (even more than one lifetime or one very long life) for them to get with the program and death will not be an end as having an arbitrary end is not patient and perfect love is perfectly patient.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

Where does Jesus himself warn of horrible consequences for those who ignore the "Spiritual truth" of his "paying for" one's sins?

Seems to me he warned of other things, but not for "wrong" belief.

Such as an unforgiving heart. After the Lord's prayer in Matthew Jesus warns that "if you do not forgive others, neither will my Father forgive you".

Notice Jesus does not say that "unless you are blood-washed" or "born again".

[2timothy316]

Seems to me he warned of other things, but not for "wrong" belief.

The Bible disagrees.

“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.

“Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." - Matthew 7:13-20.

There is belief and there is truth. Truth is the narrow gate everything else is the spacious "road leading off into destruction." That is why it is best to seek truth and not rely on our own beliefs. There are people today that really believe the world is flat. But is that true? There are those that believe that Jehovah will not enforce justice. But is that true? The people of Israel thought God wouldn't do anything either for following the wrong beliefs and gods. (Jer 7:8-15) Did that end up being true? We all have to be truth seekers not belief seekers.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 7 by ttruscott]

Where does Jesus himself warn of horrible consequences for those who ignore the "Spiritual truth"

Matt 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 Have you understood all these things?�

of his "paying for" one's sins?
Seems to me he warned of other things, but not for "wrong" belief.

IN Christ's words: Mark 26:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. This can't be a belief in falsehoods, can it...

Others also taught that also:
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter. and all of this chapter...