What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise. That is the "If", in "If I go away I will come again ...."
And that is the "will receive you home to myself."

Jesus is not telling them what comes at the end of their faith. He is telling them how they will be comforted after he is gone. We try to turn his words of comfort into something they would have to wait their whole life out before they could receive it. But his words are about their need of comfort then, due to his having to depart from them. It was the spiritual paradise that he had in mind.

We have known about that spiritual paradise for some time now. We simply have not applied that knowledge every place we need to.

This explanation harmonizes better to verse 1, “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me."

And he DID go away. He went and has prepared a place for the 144,000 to abide, in heaven. Those co-rulers with Christ are up there simply to SERVE us physical persons here on the earth. Christ served his disciples and washed their feet, telling them to do the same sorts of things to others. So it's not a foreign thought to imagine them serving the people on earth. They will help us carry out the work that will have to be done during the Millennial Reign. It's pretty simple to me.

.

[onewithhim]

I would agree, so is there anything to STOP John 14:2-8 (which is the scripture in the post which you are responding to) to be taken to mean that the Apostles would literally be with Jesus in the spirit realm?

The problem is that there is no SPIRT realm. Where in the bible does it mention a sprit realm? Why did Jesus have a body that went to heaven? Many people of the bible visited heaven with a physical body. Make sure your reference to the bible are not your interpretation but are clear.

So you need to explain why Jesus with a physical body went to heaven. Or explain that Jesus never did have a physical body after he died on the cross. That is, no empty tomb.

Christ did not have a physical body when he ascended to heaven, and there have been NO people who ascended to heaven with physical bodies. "Flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom".....that is, physical bodies cannot be in heaven where the seat of government is for Christ's rulership.

Make sure that YOU provide scriptural references for your statements. There are no passages in the Bible that show that people went to heaven in physical bodies.

The tomb was empty; Jesus was brought back to life. Yet he was raised up as a spirit person, and the scriptures clearly state that.

"'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)

"Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)


.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 5 by polonius.advice]

No I didn't overlook it - I probably simply interpret it differently to you. Revelation provides hours of endless fun with alternative interpretations, indeed I don't think I've ever met two (non-witness) people that have the same interpretation of Revelation.

Respect,

JW

QUESTION: How much of the Book of Revelation or the Bible, in general, do you consider to be "endless fun"? If what you say is true, doesn't this demolish your quotes of scripture to prove your arguments?

JW Posted:

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1).

Rev 14:1 “Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,* and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.�

RESPONSE:
Only 144,000 human will go to heaven? It looks like the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, doesn’t it?

Revelation 7:9 Triumph of the Elect.

9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.

From https://dgcoy.me/2011/03/27/revelation-fact-or-fiction/

"Recently I was watching MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell on his show, The Last Word, when, in responding to a rival TV host who claimed that the Japanese earthquake and tsunami were evidence of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation, he retorted, “The book of Revelation is a work of fiction that describes how a truly vicious God would bring about the end of the world. No half-smart religious person actually believes the book of Revelation anymore. Those people are certain that their God would never turn into a malicious torturer and mass murderer beyond Hitler’s wildest dreams.�

How are JWs wrong about 144,000 going to heaven? The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 is explained by the angel to be "the ones that come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14). To "come out" of something you have to have been IN it in the first place. That great multitude remains on the earth, experiences the G.T., and then enters the relief of Christ's Millennial Reign....Paradise on Earth.

What kind of malarkey is that "The Last Word" Lawrence O"Donnell spewing out? God is not a "malicious torturer and mass murderer." The lake of fire is symbolic of annihilation, and is not a literal place of torture. Beyond that, the only killing that God will be responsible for is the elimination of all incorrigibly evil people who would forever (if they were allowed to live) be making life miserable for other people. It is merciful of God to do away with them so that good people can live in peace. Tell me---why should those wicked people who will never change be allowed to remain among the good people?

[/u][/b]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

How can you look past that fact?

Edit: Death must be swallowed up by life. (2 Corinthians 5: 4)


2 Corinthians 5: 1 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, [which contrasts the present house of God made by hands]> a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.�

How can we ignore that clear contrast? Our physical bodies were not made with hands, so it cannot be speaking about them. IMHO, if we are really interested in truth we must cease ignoring these little details.

It seems clear from texts like Romans 15:20 and 1 Corinthians 3: 6-12 that God used the hands of humans to build the house which is called �the church� or, more appropriately, “the congregation of God, the body of Christ� which we in this world are able to see. But where there is a physical body there is also a spiritual body according to 1 Corinthians 15:44. And I believe we catch a sort of fore-glimpse of that spiritual body at Hebrews 12: 22-23.

If you want to help me see that I am wrong you will have to explain the point of Paul’s making that comparison at 2 Corinthians 5: 1, because Paul spoke but valueless wasted words there if “not made with hands� has nothing it contrasts with.

Death WILL BE swallowed up forever, for the 144,000 AND the "great crowd" that isn't numbered. Paul was simply speaking of himself and the other members of the chosen ones who will reign with Christ. They will be immortal and rule in heaven during Christ's Millennial Reign. He was describing the 144,000 members of "Spiritual Israel" that has been explained on these threads recently.

The "great multitude" that "comes out of the Great Tribulation" pictures all of the billions on the earth that have the hope of living in Paradise Earth forever. The 144,000 members of "the Israel of God" will be GUIDING the rest of us here on Earth. We will also be able to live forever, even though we will not be immortal.


.

I am aware that death cannot be swallowed up forever until after the end of the thousand years and the final test has completed for the great crowd.

Clearly sin has not been defeated while it remains a threat to anyone living.

I believe you will agree with me that John 3:16 applies also to the great crowd:

John 3:116 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

What does "everlasting life" mean to you?

To me, John 3:16 is God's promise of deathlessness to any who prove faithful to God and show proper honor the Son. Everlasting life is deathless life. And the word translated as "immortality" in the NT merely means "deathlessness."

The only places properly translated immortality in the Bible are at 1st Corinthians 15: 53, 54 and 1 Timothy 6: 16. Bibles like the KJV use the word "immortal" once, and the word "immortality" five times, all in the NT. Those extra places that the KJV translates as "immortal" and immortality" are actually speaking of incorruptibly rather than deathlessness.

The 144,000 are first-fruits of the harvest. That which gets harvested later in the season is still wheat, the same as was the first-fruits of the harvest. The only difference in the early harvest of a wheat field as compared to the later harvest is the rate at which they matured. And because they matured faster they were able to be used to form the necessary government for the new earth to come.

John 3:16 makes it clear that all who prove faithful, whether of the early harvest or of the late, go onto qualify for "everlasting life."

Deathlessness and everlasting life are the same thing. Many have bought into a mythical idea which is said to be a totally self-sustained "immortality". But none are able to prove that belief is real by use of the properly translated scriptures. If you think you can, let me see you do it. Present your scriptural defense that "immortality" is more than just God's oath to eternally sustain the faithful.

I am issuing the above as a challenge to you. Let me see if you can find the proof of what you believe in the scriptures.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise. That is the "If", in "If I go away I will come again ...."
And that is the "will receive you home to myself."

Jesus is not telling them what comes at the end of their faith. He is telling them how they will be comforted after he is gone. We try to turn his words of comfort into something they would have to wait their whole life out before they could receive it. But his words are about their need of comfort then, due to his having to depart from them. It was the spiritual paradise that he had in mind.

We have known about that spiritual paradise for some time now. We simply have not applied that knowledge every place we need to.

This explanation harmonizes better to verse 1, “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me."

And he DID go away. He went and has prepared a place for the 144,000 to abide, in heaven. Those co-rulers with Christ are up there simply to SERVE us physical persons here on the earth. Christ served his disciples and washed their feet, telling them to do the same sorts of things to others. So it's not a foreign thought to imagine them serving the people on earth. They will help us carry out the work that will have to be done during the Millennial Reign. It's pretty simple to me.

.

What is a foreign thought is that God is going to take seed that was meant to live forever on the earth and transplant it to heaven. That would be rather inconsistent concerning his original purpose.

I think that is why the Psalms contain no hint of that belief.

For that reason I was not surprised that Jehovah was able to show me another view of the scriptures that are used to support that belief.

I am grateful, but not surprised.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 5 by polonius.advice]

No I didn't overlook it - I probably simply interpret it differently to you. Revelation provides hours of endless fun with alternative interpretations, indeed I don't think I've ever met two (non-witness) people that have the same interpretation of Revelation.

Respect,

JW

QUESTION: How much of the Book of Revelation or the Bible, in general, do you consider to be "endless fun"? If what you say is true, doesn't this demolish your quotes of scripture to prove your arguments?

JW Posted:

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1).

Rev 14:1 “Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,* and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.�

RESPONSE:
Only 144,000 human will go to heaven? It looks like the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, doesn’t it?

Revelation 7:9 Triumph of the Elect.

9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.

From https://dgcoy.me/2011/03/27/revelation-fact-or-fiction/

"Recently I was watching MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell on his show, The Last Word, when, in responding to a rival TV host who claimed that the Japanese earthquake and tsunami were evidence of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation, he retorted, “The book of Revelation is a work of fiction that describes how a truly vicious God would bring about the end of the world. No half-smart religious person actually believes the book of Revelation anymore. Those people are certain that their God would never turn into a malicious torturer and mass murderer beyond Hitler’s wildest dreams.�

How are JWs wrong about 144,000 going to heaven? The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 is explained by the angel to be "the ones that come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14). To "come out" of something you have to have been IN it in the first place. That great multitude remains on the earth, experiences the G.T., and then enters the relief of Christ's Millennial Reign....Paradise on Earth.

What kind of malarkey is that "The Last Word" Lawrence O"Donnell spewing out? God is not a "malicious torturer and mass murderer." The lake of fire is symbolic of annihilation, and is not a literal place of torture. Beyond that, the only killing that God will be responsible for is the elimination of all incorrigibly evil people who would forever (if they were allowed to live) be making life miserable for other people. It is merciful of God to do away with them so that good people can live in peace. Tell me---why should those wicked people who will never change be allowed to remain among the good people?

[/u][/b]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

How can you look past that fact?

Edit: Death must be swallowed up by life. (2 Corinthians 5: 4)


2 Corinthians 5: 1 “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, [which contrasts the present house of God made by hands]> a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.�

How can we ignore that clear contrast? Our physical bodies were not made with hands, so it cannot be speaking about them. IMHO, if we are really interested in truth we must cease ignoring these little details.

It seems clear from texts like Romans 15:20 and 1 Corinthians 3: 6-12 that God used the hands of humans to build the house which is called �the church� or, more appropriately, “the congregation of God, the body of Christ� which we in this world are able to see. But where there is a physical body there is also a spiritual body according to 1 Corinthians 15:44. And I believe we catch a sort of fore-glimpse of that spiritual body at Hebrews 12: 22-23.

If you want to help me see that I am wrong you will have to explain the point of Paul’s making that comparison at 2 Corinthians 5: 1, because Paul spoke but valueless wasted words there if “not made with hands� has nothing it contrasts with.

Death WILL BE swallowed up forever, for the 144,000 AND the "great crowd" that isn't numbered. Paul was simply speaking of himself and the other members of the chosen ones who will reign with Christ. They will be immortal and rule in heaven during Christ's Millennial Reign. He was describing the 144,000 members of "Spiritual Israel" that has been explained on these threads recently.

The "great multitude" that "comes out of the Great Tribulation" pictures all of the billions on the earth that have the hope of living in Paradise Earth forever. The 144,000 members of "the Israel of God" will be GUIDING the rest of us here on Earth. We will also be able to live forever, even though we will not be immortal.


.

I am aware that death cannot be swallowed up forever until after the end of the thousand years and the final test has completed for the great crowd.

Clearly sin has not been defeated while it remains a threat to anyone living.

I believe you will agree with me that John 3:16 applies also to the great crowd:

John 3:116 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

What does "everlasting life" mean to you?

To me, John 3:16 is God's promise of deathlessness to any who prove faithful to God and show proper honor the Son. Everlasting life is deathless life. And the word translated as "immortality" in the NT merely means "deathlessness."

The only places properly translated immortality in the Bible are at 1st Corinthians 15: 53, 54 and 1 Timothy 6: 16. Bibles like the KJV use the word "immortal" once, and the word "immortality" five times, all in the NT. Those extra places that the KJV translates as "immortal" and immortality" are actually speaking of incorruptibly rather than deathlessness.

The 144,000 are first-fruits of the harvest. That which gets harvested later in the season is still wheat, the same as was the first-fruits of the harvest. The only difference in the early harvest of a wheat field as compared to the later harvest is the rate at which they matured. And because they matured faster they were able to be used to form the necessary government for the new earth to come.

John 3:16 makes it clear that all who prove faithful, whether of the early harvest or of the late, go onto qualify for "everlasting life."

Deathlessness and everlasting life are the same thing. Many have bought into a mythical idea which is said to be a totally self-sustained "immortality". But none are able to prove that belief is real by use of the properly translated scriptures. If you think you can, let me see you do it. Present your scriptural defense that "immortality" is more than just God's oath to eternally sustain the faithful.

I am issuing the above as a challenge to you. Let me see if you can find the proof of what you believe in the scriptures.

"Everlasting life" means never having to die. I agree with your belief that it applies to all who prove faithful to God and properly honor His Son.

I personally don't understand why the 144,000 are said to be "immortal" rather than that they have "everlasting life," and I don't think anyone can explain it. The only thing we know is that "immortal" is applied to only Jesus and the 144,000, and means that they cannot die. To have "everlasting life" means that we physical people here on Earth CAN live forever, but we must remain faithful to God. I don't think anyone can say why the anointed sons of God CANNOT die anymore. That's a deep one.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise. That is the "If", in "If I go away I will come again ...."
And that is the "will receive you home to myself."

Jesus is not telling them what comes at the end of their faith. He is telling them how they will be comforted after he is gone. We try to turn his words of comfort into something they would have to wait their whole life out before they could receive it. But his words are about their need of comfort then, due to his having to depart from them. It was the spiritual paradise that he had in mind.

We have known about that spiritual paradise for some time now. We simply have not applied that knowledge every place we need to.

This explanation harmonizes better to verse 1, “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me."

And he DID go away. He went and has prepared a place for the 144,000 to abide, in heaven. Those co-rulers with Christ are up there simply to SERVE us physical persons here on the earth. Christ served his disciples and washed their feet, telling them to do the same sorts of things to others. So it's not a foreign thought to imagine them serving the people on earth. They will help us carry out the work that will have to be done during the Millennial Reign. It's pretty simple to me.

.

What is a foreign thought is that God is going to take seed that was meant to live forever on the earth and transplant it to heaven. That would be rather inconsistent concerning his original purpose.

I think that is why the Psalms contain no hint of that belief.

For that reason I was not surprised that Jehovah was able to show me another view of the scriptures that are used to support that belief.

I am grateful, but not surprised.

I see what you're saying, and I actually agree that it was not Jehovah's original plan to have ANYONE go to heaven from the earth. This became a reality when Adam rebelled and brought death into the world because of his disobedience. THEN Jehovah designed a new governmental system with His Son as the Ruler and a "cabinet," if you will, of people from the earth.

You are to be commended for finding such a thing as unnatural. Jehovah originally created humans to live here on Earth, not in heaven. So, one is actually astounded that so many people think of it as natural! I don't think of it as natural, or, inevitable. Such was not meant to be, in the beginning. But things changed a lot when Adam blew it for mankind. Many things were changed and rearranged, but certainly not so drastic as ALL humans eventually going to heaven! That is downright absurd. Jehovah was just kind and thoughtful to allow a certain number of humans go to heaven to help billions of their former friends and families bring the planet back to its full potential.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise. That is the "If", in "If I go away I will come again ...."
And that is the "will receive you home to myself."

Jesus is not telling them what comes at the end of their faith. He is telling them how they will be comforted after he is gone. We try to turn his words of comfort into something they would have to wait their whole life out before they could receive it. But his words are about their need of comfort then, due to his having to depart from them. It was the spiritual paradise that he had in mind.

We have known about that spiritual paradise for some time now. We simply have not applied that knowledge every place we need to.

This explanation harmonizes better to verse 1, “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me."

And he DID go away. He went and has prepared a place for the 144,000 to abide, in heaven. Those co-rulers with Christ are up there simply to SERVE us physical persons here on the earth. Christ served his disciples and washed their feet, telling them to do the same sorts of things to others. So it's not a foreign thought to imagine them serving the people on earth. They will help us carry out the work that will have to be done during the Millennial Reign. It's pretty simple to me.

.

What is a foreign thought is that God is going to take seed that was meant to live forever on the earth and transplant it to heaven. That would be rather inconsistent concerning his original purpose.

I think that is why the Psalms contain no hint of that belief.

For that reason I was not surprised that Jehovah was able to show me another view of the scriptures that are used to support that belief.

I am grateful, but not surprised.

I see what you're saying, and I actually agree that it was not Jehovah's original plan to have ANYONE go to heaven from the earth. This became a reality when Adam rebelled and brought death into the world because of his disobedience. THEN Jehovah designed a new governmental system with His Son as the Ruler and a "cabinet," if you will, of people from the earth.

You are to be commended for finding such a thing as unnatural. Jehovah originally created humans to live here on Earth, not in heaven. So, one is actually astounded that so many people think of it as natural! I don't think of it as natural, or, inevitable. Such was not meant to be, in the beginning. But things changed a lot when Adam blew it for mankind. Many things were changed and rearranged, but certainly not so drastic as ALL humans eventually going to heaven! That is downright absurd. Jehovah was just kind and thoughtful to allow a certain number of humans go to heaven to help billions of their former friends and families bring the planet back to its full potential.

That Mount Zion at Revelation 14 is a picture of all those on the earth who trust in Jehovah.

Psalms 125:1 "Those trusting in Jehovah Are like Mount Zion, which cannot be made to totter, but dwells even to time indefinite. "

So what we have there is the 144,000 king/priests under Christ at the top of that mountain of ones who trust in Jehovah. That is why they are at the top of that mountain, it shows their position as honored kings of the earth. The top of that mountain is the earth's ruling symbolic heaven. It has nothing to do with their going to the literal heaven of God to live. And that phrase, "bought from the earth", can easily be just saying they are the cream of the crop of the earth which Jehovah chose as his special possession for the purpose of being those kings of the earth that Jesus is king over.

Psalms 89: 27 "Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth."

Psalms 138: 4 "All the kings of the earth will laud you, O Jehovah,"

Psalms 102: 15 "And the nations will fear the name of Jehovah, And all the kings of the earth your glory."

Wescott-Hort's translation of Revelation 5:10
AND YOU MADE THEM TO THE GOD OF US KINGDOM AND PRIESTS, AND THEY ARE REIGNING UPON THE EARTH.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise. That is the "If", in "If I go away I will come again ...."
And that is the "will receive you home to myself."

Jesus is not telling them what comes at the end of their faith. He is telling them how they will be comforted after he is gone. We try to turn his words of comfort into something they would have to wait their whole life out before they could receive it. But his words are about their need of comfort then, due to his having to depart from them. It was the spiritual paradise that he had in mind.

We have known about that spiritual paradise for some time now. We simply have not applied that knowledge every place we need to.

This explanation harmonizes better to verse 1, “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me."

And he DID go away. He went and has prepared a place for the 144,000 to abide, in heaven. Those co-rulers with Christ are up there simply to SERVE us physical persons here on the earth. Christ served his disciples and washed their feet, telling them to do the same sorts of things to others. So it's not a foreign thought to imagine them serving the people on earth. They will help us carry out the work that will have to be done during the Millennial Reign. It's pretty simple to me.

.

What is a foreign thought is that God is going to take seed that was meant to live forever on the earth and transplant it to heaven. That would be rather inconsistent concerning his original purpose.

I think that is why the Psalms contain no hint of that belief.

For that reason I was not surprised that Jehovah was able to show me another view of the scriptures that are used to support that belief.

I am grateful, but not surprised.

I see what you're saying, and I actually agree that it was not Jehovah's original plan to have ANYONE go to heaven from the earth. This became a reality when Adam rebelled and brought death into the world because of his disobedience. THEN Jehovah designed a new governmental system with His Son as the Ruler and a "cabinet," if you will, of people from the earth.

You are to be commended for finding such a thing as unnatural. Jehovah originally created humans to live here on Earth, not in heaven. So, one is actually astounded that so many people think of it as natural! I don't think of it as natural, or, inevitable. Such was not meant to be, in the beginning. But things changed a lot when Adam blew it for mankind. Many things were changed and rearranged, but certainly not so drastic as ALL humans eventually going to heaven! That is downright absurd. Jehovah was just kind and thoughtful to allow a certain number of humans go to heaven to help billions of their former friends and families bring the planet back to its full potential.

That Mount Zion at Revelation 14 is a picture of all those on the earth who trust in Jehovah.

Psalms 125:1 "Those trusting in Jehovah Are like Mount Zion, which cannot be made to totter, but dwells even to time indefinite. "

So what we have there is the 144,000 king/priests under Christ at the top of that mountain of ones who trust in Jehovah. That is why they are at the top of that mountain, it shows their position as honored kings of the earth. The top of that mountain is the earth's ruling symbolic heaven. It has nothing to do with their going to the literal heaven of God to live. And that phrase, "bought from the earth", can easily be just saying they are the cream of the crop of the earth which Jehovah chose as his special possession for the purpose of being those kings of the earth that Jesus is king over.

Psalms 89: 27 "Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth."

Psalms 138: 4 "All the kings of the earth will laud you, O Jehovah,"

Psalms 102: 15 "And the nations will fear the name of Jehovah, And all the kings of the earth your glory."

Wescott-Hort's translation of Revelation 5:10
AND YOU MADE THEM TO THE GOD OF US KINGDOM AND PRIESTS, AND THEY ARE REIGNING UPON THE EARTH.

It has been said that the word rendered "upon" is from a Greek word that could be translated either as "upon" OR as "over." Some translators prefer to use the word "over," such as The Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible:

"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and THEY SHALL REIGN OVER THE EARTH."

That harmonizes nicely with the idea that Jesus and his co-rulers will reign from heaven. How did you come to dismiss all of the references in the Scriptures to some people going to heaven? Paul wrote extensively of the anointed chosen ones going to meet Christ "in the air" and "thus always being with the Lord." (I Thess.4:17) He talked of heavenly spirit bodies in I Corinthians chapter 15. He stated that Christ's co-rulers would be in heaven at Hebrews 3:1: "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession." (NASB)

You find it nonsensical that humans would go to heaven, but you don't think it's nonsensical that Jesus, who is now in heaven, would come down here and live on the earth? I find THAT ridiculous.

[Left Site]

[quote="onewithhim�]

It has been said that the word rendered "upon" is from a Greek word that could be translated either as "upon" OR as "over." Some translators prefer to use the word "over," such as The Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible:

"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and THEY SHALL REIGN OVER THE EARTH."

I am sorry, but you are not properly applying the grammar at Revelation 5:10. The phrase is not telling you where they are located. We were told they are kings and we are being told what they will reign “over� as kings, that being the earth. The king of England reigns over England. That does not mean he floats above it. While it is acceptable to translate the genitive case “epi� as “over�, your interpretation is not staying true to the structure of the grammar in either the Koine’ Greek or the English.


[quote="onewithhim�]

That harmonizes nicely with the idea that Jesus and his co-rulers will reign from heaven. How did you come to dismiss all of the references in the Scriptures to some people going to heaven? Paul wrote extensively of the anointed chosen ones going to meet Christ "in the air" and "thus always being with the Lord." (I Thess.4:17) He talked of heavenly spirit bodies in I Corinthians chapter 15. He stated that Christ's co-rulers would be in heaven at Hebrews 3:1: "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession." (NASB)

Are you aware that for many years Jehovah’s Witnesses taught about a symbolic ruling heavens wherein earth’s kings are pictured as sitting? If that has changed it would have to be only recently and I am not aware of it changing. I am telling you that this meeting Christ in the air only means coming to power as kings. According to Revelation 6:14, the old symbolic ruling heaven is rolled up like a scroll when the new symbolic ruling heaven replaces it.

[quote="onewithhim�]

You find it nonsensical that humans would go to heaven, but you don't think it's nonsensical that Jesus, who is now in heaven, would come down here and live on the earth? I find THAT ridiculous.

I don’t believe Jesus will live on earth or become a man again. He cannot take back that which he sacrificed.

[onewithhim]

I'm sorry, BusB, I don't understand your POV and can't give any more responses because I don't understand.

I wish you a pleasant life.