What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 46 by BusB]

Did you see the rest of my post above #45? It had some other questions.

There is a bit of both the literal and symbolic and that is a part of what makes it so difficult to understand.

I would agree, so is there anything to STOP John 14:2-8 (which is the scripture in the post which you are responding to) to be taken to mean that the Apostles would literally be with Jesus in the spirit realm?

John14: 1-3
1 Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me.
2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU.
3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.

When taken alone much can be drawn from those three verses by sheer imagination. And the problem is that it becomes similar to the mental affect of having watched to much fantasy entertainment in terms of what we have imagined those verses to mean causing us to think we see shadows of the same idea being spoken of elsewhere in the scriptures. That is no doubt why it also has been difficult for me to find anyone willing to see the contrast which is so visible, created by the phrase, not made by hands, at 2 Corinthians 5: 1. We, myself included for a long time, have taken what we imagine we see from those three verses at John 14:1-3 and wore an imagined idea like tinted lenses so that it colors our perception everywhere else we look. Yet, there are things in the immediate context right there in John chapter 14 which seem to dispel what we imagined verses 1-3 were saying.

John 14: 4 And where I am going YOU know the way.

What a strange thing to say, where I am going YOU know the way. If they know the way, they must also know where Jesus is going but just dont realize they know. But they do not yet fully understand that they know those things. So what we see is that Jesus is speaking illustratively to them. And yet we want to believe that in verses 1-3 he is not speaking illustratively to them. But it would seem a mistake that we make in doing so.

Thomas was not shy about voicing his confusion, and judging by Johns words at 1 John 3: 2, in speaking about his confusion Thomas was speaking for all of them:

John 14: 5 Thomas said to him: Lord, we do not know where you are going. How do we know the way?

Notice that I did not draw my earlier comment out of thin air that if they know the way, they must also know where Jesus is going but just dont realize they know. Thomas speaks of both things there in verse 5.

We must first come to understand accurately how Jesus is the way before we can understand what Jesus meant concerning the many abodes and preparing a place for them:

John 14: 6-7
6 Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.

Once again we find very clearly in verses 6-7 that Jesus is not speaking literally, but figuratively: No one comes to the Father except through me. If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.

We know they did not literally see the Father at that moment. We know that Jesus meant that he in his character and ways was the mirror view of his Father. They saw the Father through the spiritual eyes of the understanding which Jesus was teaching them to have. And so that is good reason to think it is all spiritual, including the things Jesus told them in verses 1-3.

Note that in verse 7 he called his own disciples, you men. So what we here have, is: No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. (John 1:18) Personally, I would replace the word, explained, with the word, expounded, for it is the model in the perfect image of God that Jesus as a god bears of the Father, in word, in temperament, and in deed, that reveals the Father so that spiritual eyes of understanding may see Him.

Jesus told them that they know the way. And Jesus told them that they have seen the Father. It seems quite clear that their journey and and their destination is all spiritual, rather than literal. What will be literal are the effects of it.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise. That is the "If", in "If I go away I will come again ...."
And that is the "will receive you home to myself."

Jesus is not telling them what comes at the end of their faith. He is telling them how they will be comforted after he is gone. We try to turn his words of comfort into something they would have to wait their whole life out before they could receive it. But his words are about their need of comfort then, due to his having to depart from them. It was the spiritual paradise that he had in mind.

We have known about that spiritual paradise for some time now. We simply have not applied that knowledge every place we need to.

This explanation harmonizes better to verse 1, Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me."

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise.

I appreciate that, but that wasn't exactly what I asked, do any of your observations absolutely impose that conclusion?

John 14:8 (NIV)
I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus? You yourself admitted that Jesus himself literally left the physical realm and "went" to his father in the literal sense of entering the spiritual realm. What in your observations absolutely eliminates the same criteria from applying to his Apostles?

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 51 by BusB]

I don't know why you are mentioning "fantasy entertainment" and "sheer imagination" YOU are the one that said such like expressions can be taken as literal. Do you believe anything that you have said here eliminates the possibilty that John 14:2-8 could be one of those cases?

I believe the place Jesus was speaking of preparing in verse 2 and 3 is the spiritual paradise.

I appreciate that, but that wasn't exactly what I asked, do any of your observations absolutely impose that conclusion?

John 14:8 (NIV)
I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus? You yourself admitted that Jesus himself literally left the physical realm and "went" to his father in the literal sense of entering the spiritual realm. What in your observations absolutely eliminates the same criteria from applying to his Apostles?

I feel that I have already answered to the question you here ask.

Take a while to ponder what thus far has been said.

[Donray]

I would agree, so is there anything to STOP John 14:2-8 (which is the scripture in the post which you are responding to) to be taken to mean that the Apostles would literally be with Jesus in the spirit realm?

The problem is that there is no SPIRT realm. Where in the bible does it mention a sprit realm? Why did Jesus have a body that went to heaven? Many people of the bible visited heaven with a physical body. Make sure your reference to the bible are not your interpretation but are clear.

So you need to explain why Jesus with a physical body went to heaven. Or explain that Jesus never did have a physical body after he died on the cross. That is, no empty tomb.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 55 by BusB]


Fair enough.

I will now here reflect on the posts so far on this topic.

1. The Spirit realm exists. Certain. God resides in this realm. Also certain.
2. Jesus literally left the earth to also reside with God; also a certain.
3. Just before leaving Jesus promised his Apostles that the would return and take them to be with him.
4. In the meantime he promised to "be with them" when they preached and met together.

There is a bit of both the literal and symbolic ....

5. While Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the earth" the bible also speaks of people being taken "from the earth" to rule as kings with Jesus. Paul speaks of Christians having a citizenship in the heavens and speaks of a "first resurrection".

QUESTION Is it more reasonable to conclude Jesus' very specific promise was symbolic and nobody goes to heaven despite the supporting scriptures that indicate the contrary or that the symbolism was in the fact that Jesus would be "with" ie supporting and guiding the Christian congregation on earth?

6. You are not sure if anyone goes to heaven to be {to quote Jesus' own words} "where" he (Jesus) is.

7. You find the whole matter difficult to understand.

It is about whether or not God is really going to take a group of humans who he originally purposed would inhabit this earth and make them angels.

I'm more confused than ever now, are you suggesting there will be no heavenly ressurection? That no humans will go to heaven to be with Jesus and God?


JW

The more I see the more that is what I am beginning to believe.

[Replying to post 46 by BusB]

Did you see the rest of my post above #45? It had some other questions.

There is a bit of both the literal and symbolic and that is a part of what makes it so difficult to understand.

8. You claim (and I believe you) to you admire those that are willing to humbly accept to revise their beliefs, presumably to see more clearly on matters that are "difficult to understand".




JW


Further reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010082

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 5 by polonius.advice]

No I didn't overlook it - I probably simply interpret it differently to you. Revelation provides hours of endless fun with alternative interpretations, indeed I don't think I've ever met two (non-witness) people that have the same interpretation of Revelation.

Respect,

JW

QUESTION: How much of the Book of Revelation or the Bible, in general, do you consider to be "endless fun"? If what you say is true, doesn't this demolish your quotes of scripture to prove your arguments?

JW Posted:

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses, we believe only 144,000 of the humans that have ever lived will go to heaven (Rev 14:1).

Rev 14:1 Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,* and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Fathers name written on their foreheads.

RESPONSE:
Only 144,000 human will go to heaven? It looks like the Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, doesnt it?

Revelation 7:9 Triumph of the Elect.

9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches* in their hands.

From https://dgcoy.me/2011/03/27/revelation-fact-or-fiction/

"Recently I was watching MSNBCs Lawrence ODonnell on his show, The Last Word, when, in responding to a rival TV host who claimed that the Japanese earthquake and tsunami were evidence of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation, he retorted, The book of Revelation is a work of fiction that describes how a truly vicious God would bring about the end of the world. No half-smart religious person actually believes the book of Revelation anymore. Those people are certain that their God would never turn into a malicious torturer and mass murderer beyond Hitlers wildest dreams.

How are JWs wrong about 144,000 going to heaven? The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 is explained by the angel to be "the ones that come out of the great tribulation..." (verse 14). To "come out" of something you have to have been IN it in the first place. That great multitude remains on the earth, experiences the G.T., and then enters the relief of Christ's Millennial Reign....Paradise on Earth.

What kind of malarkey is that "The Last Word" Lawrence O"Donnell spewing out? God is not a "malicious torturer and mass murderer." The lake of fire is symbolic of annihilation, and is not a literal place of torture. Beyond that, the only killing that God will be responsible for is the elimination of all incorrigibly evil people who would forever (if they were allowed to live) be making life miserable for other people. It is merciful of God to do away with them so that good people can live in peace. Tell me---why should those wicked people who will never change be allowed to remain among the good people?

[/u][/b]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

How can you look past that fact?

Edit: Death must be swallowed up by life. (2 Corinthians 5: 4)


2 Corinthians 5: 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, [which contrasts the present house of God made by hands]> a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.

How can we ignore that clear contrast? Our physical bodies were not made with hands, so it cannot be speaking about them. IMHO, if we are really interested in truth we must cease ignoring these little details.

It seems clear from texts like Romans 15:20 and 1 Corinthians 3: 6-12 that God used the hands of humans to build the house which is called the church or, more appropriately, the congregation of God, the body of Christ which we in this world are able to see. But where there is a physical body there is also a spiritual body according to 1 Corinthians 15:44. And I believe we catch a sort of fore-glimpse of that spiritual body at Hebrews 12: 22-23.

If you want to help me see that I am wrong you will have to explain the point of Pauls making that comparison at 2 Corinthians 5: 1, because Paul spoke but valueless wasted words there if not made with hands has nothing it contrasts with.

Death WILL BE swallowed up forever, for the 144,000 AND the "great crowd" that isn't numbered. Paul was simply speaking of himself and the other members of the chosen ones who will reign with Christ. They will be immortal and rule in heaven during Christ's Millennial Reign. He was describing the 144,000 members of "Spiritual Israel" that has been explained on these threads recently.

The "great multitude" that "comes out of the Great Tribulation" pictures all of the billions on the earth that have the hope of living in Paradise Earth forever. The 144,000 members of "the Israel of God" will be GUIDING the rest of us here on Earth. We will also be able to live forever, even though we will not be immortal.


.

[onewithhim]

The question which keeps pestering the back of my mind is that Paul seems to have quite clearly stated that for death to be swallowed up forever that which is corruptible must put on incorruption and that which is mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).

If not all who live do that then it logically follows that death cannot be swallowed up for ever except for a preferential few, the 144,000.

By saying death will be "swallowed up forever", he means that adamic death will be eliminated, ie eventually, those judged as righteous will be rewarded with eternal life (immortality for those the 144,000) everlasting life for those humans in paradise.

***By saying death will be "swallowed up forever", he means that adamic death will be eliminated, ie eventually, those judged as righteous will be rewarded with eternal life (immortality for those the 144,000) everlasting life for those humans in paradise.

That is the point. It seems that you are only considering half of the equation, because 1st Corinthians 15:53-54 seem to say that *the corruptible putting on incorruption* <<<and>>> *this which is mortal putting on immortality* are both needed before a person can be said to have defeated adimic death.

Pondering 1st Corinthians 15: 51-54
51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in the death which is due to adamic sin, but we shall all be changed,
52 ............
53 For this which is the corruptible body we received of Adams sin must put on incorruption, and this which is made mortal by the punishment for sin must put on immortality.
54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption <<<and>>> this which is mortal puts on immortality], then the saying will take place that is written: Death is swallowed up forever.

You aren't seeing that we have touched on all of the equation because you don't understand that Paul was speaking about the changing of the 144,000's physical bodies into spirit bodies upon their resurrections to heaven. THEY will all be changed to spirit persons. The rest of mankind here on Earth will not be changed to spirit bodies; we will remain physical people.

He said that death will be swallowed up forever, for the anointed co-rulers, and he didn't say it was ONLY for them. The rest of us will not have to die either, right here on the earth.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 40 by BusB]

Well to be fair Paul isn't speaking about the earthly class at all. I just pointed out that in its fullest sense for adamic death to be eliminated entirely it would no longer have to exist (whether for the earthly class or the heavenly).

In Corinthians Paul is speaking of those that will be ressurrected to heavenly life; rewarded with immortality in heaven. Those 144,000 will die as humans and be resurrected as incorruptable and immortal spirits. Death as Paul said will no longer have any power over them.

Yes, and the same is true for the people on the earth, though we won't be "immortal." We will be able to live forever as long as we remain faithful to God.