Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

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Jagella
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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 39 by Bust Nak]
I said a sadist who want people to die slow and painful death reality would want to ban euthanasia.
I suppose it's possible that some people might enjoy thinking about how dying people might suffer. I don't feel that way, and I don't recall ever hearing about anybody else who felt that way.
Life is valued, just not at the expense of human dignity.
The best dignity I can think of is to let people know we value them and their lives. What dignity is there in trashing a person's life like we'd kill a rat or a fly?
Again, that particular case is a great reason for supporting euthanasia - the boyfriend could still be alive had he had easy access to euthanasia.
So now euthanasia saves lives? I never thought of that!
Allowing suicide do indeed have its danger, that's all the more reason to get professional people involved.
Should we train doctors in medical school to kill people? Or should we wait until they're in residency?
Yet earlier you said were not going to do nothing to stop a suicide if it is immanent. You sound conflicted. Or perhaps "immanent" suicide implicitly excludes suicide "in progress?"
Yes, I would try to stop a person who is trying to leap to her death or shoot herself. What would you do? Yell "Jump!" or "Shoot!"?
Never mind the fact that said expressions comes from the very people who wants the right for ourselves.
Have you read anything I've posted? I've explained that I know of many real-life examples of people who live with pain and adversity. They can do it. I know of very few people who would want such a crazy "right." The few who do just talk about it. I'm very skeptical that they mean it. I think they just want help.
That's just the same slippery slope argument form before. "If euthanasia is legal then old and disabled people can be murdered!" What is your reasoning for this fear?
It's happened before under the Nazis.
If for argument's sake, we can with 100% certainty, rule out involuntary and "voluntary" in quote style euthanasia, leaving just the genuine euthanasia cases. Would you then be able to support legalization of euthanasia?
No. I think euthanasia is a dangerous and stupid not to mention immoral practice.

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Bust Nak »

Jagella wrote: I suppose it's possible that some people might enjoy thinking about how dying people might suffer. I don't feel that way, and I don't recall ever hearing about anybody else who felt that way.
Well, that's a decidedly softer tone than before. I see you acknowledge that it is possible, does that mean you accept that I gave you a valid answer? Can I then expect you to retract your "twisted reality" comment?
The best dignity I can think of is to let people know we value them and their lives.
That's all well and good, but you don't see to value their opinion much.
What dignity is there in trashing a person's life like we'd kill a rat or a fly?
Don't know. That's why we don't trash a person's life like we'd kill a rat or a fly.
So now euthanasia saves lives? I never thought of that!
Well, perhaps that is an indicator for you to be thinking more about the topic before wanting to ban it?
Should we train doctors in medical school to kill people? Or should we wait until they're in residency?
They are already trained to do that in medical school, does the phrase "the dose makes the poison" ring any bell? That's why I said it you need not worry about euthanasia draining resources from regular treatment or research.
Yes, I would try to stop a person who is trying to leap to her death or shoot herself. What would you do? Yell "Jump!" or "Shoot!"?
No, I would yell "stop." But my scenario is set at a point after that. The person has already landed/been shot, but hasn't died yet but will soon die without intervention. Would you intervene, given instruction to DNR? You said you are not sure, which undermine everything you said about valuing life above all else.
Have you read anything I've posted?
Yes, everything.
I've explained that I know of many real-life examples of people who live with pain and adversity. They can do it. I know of very few people who would want such a crazy "right." The few who do just talk about it. I'm very skeptical that they mean it. I think they just want help.
First of all, secret cry for help or not, the fact that people says we want it for ourselves, as opposed to wanting it for someone else, is enough to debunk your accusation that support for euthanasia is an "expressions of bigotry dressed up in nice words that are actually a way to rid the world of those society sees as worthless."

Secondly, would the opinions of two medical trained professional, that a person mean what he said about wanting to die, be enough overcome your skepticism?
It's happened before under the Nazis.
No it didn't. What is it with this willful disregard of the issue of consent? Can't conjure up righteous anger unless you conflate euthanasia with systematic murder of the old and disabled?

Either way, this has now become moot since you've confirmed below that you don't care even if one can guarantee no abuse, you still would not support legalized euthanasia.
No. I think euthanasia is a dangerous and stupid not to mention immoral practice.
Well there you go, my accusation stands: Whether euthanasia could be abused to murder old and disable people or not is irrelevant as to whether you would support it either or not - you have presented a red herring. The same could be said for your other reasons. Your entire argument against euthanasia boils down to it is immoral, therefore NO.
Euthanasia supporters tend to offer a simplistic, idealized version of death. In the real world, however, things tend to get much more complicated and a lot messier.
That's the thing, this complicated mess is happening right now with or without euthanasia, and you are standing in the way of make it just that little bit less messy.

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 42 by Bust Nak]
They are already trained to do that in medical school, does the phrase "the dose makes the poison" ring any bell?
No, that's all new to me. It makes sense, though.

So is that the way you want to kill people? Using poison? If so, is the poison solid, liquid or gas? What method will you use to administer the poison? And who will administer the poison? Doctors, nurses, therapists? Where will the killing take place? Hospitals, clinics, or maybe at home? How will you determine eligibility for this treatment?

I was giving this issue some thought, and I think that I'd simply need more information about individual cases to decide if killing a person or helping a person commit suicide is the right thing to do. Can you post some real-life cases of people you think should die? Maybe we can take it from there.

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Bust Nak »

Jagella wrote: So is that the way you want to kill people? Using poison?
It is the way I want to be killed. I can't think of anything better. It seems that's what others perfer too.
If so, is the poison solid, liquid or gas? What method will you use to administer the poison?
Liquid is easiest, I can drink it or have it injected, depending on the exact circumstances.
And who will administer the poison? Doctors, nurses, therapists?
All three options are acceptable, the important thing here is adquate professional tranining.
Where will the killing take place? Hospitals, clinics, or maybe at home?
I perfer my own home, but a clinic would be fine too. Hospitals tend to be too hectic for my liking.
How will you determine eligibility for this treatment?
By medical assessement.
I was giving this issue some thought, and I think that I'd simply need more information about individual cases to decide if killing a person or helping a person commit suicide is the right thing to do. Can you post some real-life cases of people you think should die? Maybe we can take it from there.
What's wrong with the example I gave earlier? There is lots of information on Brittany Maynard. You perfer an on going case? Either way, I am glad to hear it's not an absolute no-no and you acknowledge the possibility that it could be the right thing in some situations.

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 44 by Bust Nak]
What's wrong with the example I gave earlier? There is lots of information on Brittany Maynard.
All I've read about Brittany is a Wikipedia article. Online articles are not good enough for assessing life-and-death matters in my opinion. You've said almost nothing about her to build your own case for euthanasia. I'd recommend you start doing so.
Either way, I am glad to hear it's not an absolute no-no and you acknowledge the possibility that it could be the right thing in some situations.
Don't get too excited. I still love life and hate death. I've never seen a case that I think would justify euthanasia although I've known dozens of people who live with pain and are quite able to do it.

Speaking of which, I saw Emma yesterday. When I asked her how she was doing, she said she was "miserable." She then left. (She's a woman of few words.) She looked good, actually. She was on her feet and was using a walker.

Also, I know an elderly married couple, Shirley and Bob. They're both in bad shape. Bob has a bad shoulder and other problems, but Shirley is much worse and is dying of cancer. She is home because she understandably does not want to be in a nursing home. I heard a rumor about a year ago that she wanted to take her own life, but she's still with us. I think she found the strength and courage to live on, and I'm glad she did!

Again, I'm always seeing real-life examples of people I know that appear to falsify the notion that there is a "good" death." To make my case, I don't need internet articles or made-up scenarios. I have what I like to call "reality."

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Bust Nak »

Jagella wrote: All I've read about Brittany is a Wikipedia article. Online articles are not good enough for assessing life-and-death matters in my opinion. You've said almost nothing about her to build your own case for euthanasia. I'd recommend you start doing so.
Need I do more than point out a) she wanted to end her life on her own terms, trainned medical personels have conduded that b) her chances of recovery is low, c) she is of sound mind and d) her projected quality of life will be low even if her life can be extended to beyond her prognosis?

Do you think that you are better in assessing life-and-death matters than medical professionals? Do you think you are better in assessing what is and isn't acceptable level of pain to Brittany than Brittany herself?
Don't get too excited. I still love life and hate death. I've never seen a case that I think would justify euthanasia although I've known dozens of people who live with pain and are quite able to do it...

Again, I'm always seeing real-life examples of people I know that appear to falsify the notion that there is a "good" death." To make my case, I don't need internet articles or made-up scenarios. I have what I like to call "reality."
I too am glad that Shirley and Bob are fighting on, but you do realise that no amount of white swans can falsify the claim that black swans exist, right? You can show me 10 real-life examples of those who fights on despite their circumstances, 1000 examples, 1000000 examples and still you would have done nothing to debunk that dying on their own terms is a "good" death to people like Brittany. Your so called case is but a logical fallacy. I would also point out that the case with Brittany is a real-life example, despite your effort to minimise it as an internet article.

Furthermore the fact that you would respect DNR in non-suicide cases, is enough to proof that despite your proclaimations, you do know that some deaths are better than others. Whether these better death counts as "good" or not, is just semantics. You don't have to acknowlege that these deaths are "good," but why would you deny some people the choice of a better death over a worse one?

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 46 by Bust Nak]
Need I do more than point out a) she wanted to end her life on her own terms, trainned medical personels have conduded that b) her chances of recovery is low, c) she is of sound mind and d) her projected quality of life will be low even if her life can be extended to beyond her prognosis?
All of that comes from an online article which I have pointed out is inadequate to form a sound judgment about the issue of life and death. If I knew Brittany then I could possibly make a more appropriate call.
Do you think that you are better in assessing life-and-death matters than medical professionals?
In some cases I am. More than once I've bested doctors, nurses, and therapists regarding my own care. Medical professionals can be incompetent and have ulterior motives.
Do you think you are better in assessing what is and isn't acceptable level of pain to Brittany than Brittany herself?
Unfortunately, I don't know how much pain she was in or what her level of suffering was. I do know that many people can live with pain. Brittany may have given up too easily. We also don't know what she felt when she died. She may have been terrified as the blackness of death swallowed her up. That's what concerns me.
...but you do realise that no amount of white swans can falsify the claim that black swans exist, right?
Yes, and I also think that if I spend my whole life seeing all white swans and only hear stories of black swans, then I'd be foolish to be too quick to believe in black swans. Seeing is believing. Until I see one case of a person who appears to be better off dead, then I remain skeptical.
You can show me 10 real-life examples of those who fights on despite their circumstances, 1000 examples, 1000000 examples and still you would have done nothing to debunk that dying on their own terms is a "good" death to people like Brittany.
Again, you have the burden of proof to demonstrate that some people are better off dead.
Your so called case is but a logical fallacy.
Nope. I have made no logical fallacies. Sorry.
...why would you deny some people the choice of a better death over a worse one?
I don't trust your judgment about what a "better death" is.

Recall that I said I attempted suicide a long time ago. It was the most terrifying experience I have ever had. I thought I was gone forever. I did not die, obviously, and for months after my attempt to kill myself I had morbid thoughts of my lying in my grave rotting away. To this day I never quite got over it. You are betting that some people would benefit from dying. If you're wrong, then those people will get swallowed up by that dark monster that I escaped. Their very existence will be extinguished forever. The terror they will feel at the point of death will only be extinguished by death. Death isn't what you think it is. Sorry.

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Bust Nak »

Jagella wrote: All of that comes from an online article which I have pointed out is inadequate to form a sound judgment about the issue of life and death. If I knew Brittany then I could possibly make a more appropriate call.
Then talk to Emma. From what you told me, she might be in the position Brittany was in. Or talk to Shirley, you said she was considering suicide but apparently decided against it.
In some cases I am. More than once I've bested doctors, nurses, and therapists regarding my own care. Medical professionals can be incompetent and have ulterior motives.
That's where second opinion comes in.
Unfortunately, I don't know how much pain she was in or what her level of suffering was.
You don't, but she did though.
I do know that many people can live with pain. Brittany may have given up too easily.
Too easily according to whom? What is easy for one person, isn't easy for another.
We also don't know what she felt when she died. She may have been terrified as the blackness of death swallowed her up. That's what concerns me.
It's brief, if indeed she was terrified.
Yes, and I also think that if I spend my whole life seeing all white swans and only hear stories of black swans, then I'd be foolish to be too quick to believe in black swans. Seeing is believing. Until I see one case of a person who appears to be better off dead, then I remain skeptical.
Skeptical is one thing, you said something along the lines of, examples of white swans you've seen appear to falsify the notion that there is a black swan.
Again, you have the burden of proof to demonstrate that some people are better off dead.
Sure, that's why I pointed you to Brittany.
Nope. I have made no logical fallacies. Sorry.
Oh it wasn't you who argued that his experience with people finding strength to live on, falsified the notion of "good" death? Must have been the other Jagella.
I don't trust your judgment about what a "better death" is.
I am not asking you to. Instead you should trust the judgment of the individuals who is seeking euthanasia, and the medical professionals.
Recall that I said I attempted suicide a long time ago. It was the most terrifying experience I have ever had. I thought I was gone forever. I did not die, obviously, and for months after my attempt to kill myself I had morbid thoughts of my lying in my grave rotting away. To this day I never quite got over it.
So it wouldn't have been a better death for you, this is relevant as to whether a timely death is not better to someone else how? When are you going to accept value judgement is subjective? Also, had you gone to a euthanasia clinic, don't you think you would have failed the vetting process, and been referred to other kinds of help instead?
You are betting that some people would benefit from dying. If you're wrong, then those people will get swallowed up by that dark monster that I escaped. Their very existence will be extinguished forever. The terror they will feel at the point of death will only be extinguished by death. Death isn't what you think it is. Sorry.
How would you know that wasn't how I envisage death? Why can't someone who understands the kind of death you are talking about here, and still prefer it than to continue living? I even explained to you, you don't have to think it's a "good" death, just better than "getting swallowed up slowly by a dark monster. Their very existence will be extinguished forever. The terror they will feel at the point of death will only be extinguished by death that's expected but isn't coming soon enough, plus a whole bunch of excruciating pain."

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 48 by Bust Nak]
Too easily according to whom?
Anybody. Brittany may have found a way to cope with her condition and have done some good. Sadly, by killing herself she may have trashed a life that still had a lot to offer.
Skeptical is one thing, you said something along the lines of, examples of white swans you've seen appear to falsify the notion that there is a black swan.
It's very simple:
Many, many white swans and no black swans means that there probably are no black swans.
In the same way
many, many good lives despite pain and no lives worth trashing means that there probably are no lives worth trashing.

I've seen many white daisies. I've never seen a black daisy. I can then say with confidence that there are no black daisies.
I've seen many good lives. I've never seen a life not worth living. I can then say with confidence that there are no lives not worth living.
Oh it wasn't you who argued that his experience with people finding strength to live on, falsified the notion of "good" death? Must have been the other Jagella.
Copy and paste a direct quotation in which I said something you think is illogical, post it, and we'll take it from there.
Instead you should trust the judgment of the individuals who is seeking euthanasia, and the medical professionals.
I'm not sure I trust them either. Like I said, people do really stupid things all the time.
So it wouldn't have been a better death for you, this is relevant as to whether a timely death is not better to someone else how?
Of course I use my own experiences to judge what horror other people might go through when they're finally at the brink of death and realize they made a horrible mistake.
Also, had you gone to a euthanasia clinic, don't you think you would have failed the vetting process, and been referred to other kinds of help instead?
I would not trust a euthanasia clinic.
How would you know that wasn't how I envisage death?
From what you have posted you think death is the easy way out.

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Re: Euthanasia: Compassion or Contempt?

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Anybody. Brittany may have found a way to cope with her condition and have done some good. Sadly, by killing herself she may have trashed a life that still had a lot to offer.
You say "anybody," yet you readily discard anyone else's judgment differ to your own.
It's very simple:
Many, many white swans and no black swans means that there probably are no black swans...
Very simple but illogical. No amount of white swans can tell you anything about the existence of black swans. Not seeing any black swans therefore probably no black swans is a very different thing to falsifying black swans.
Copy and paste a direct quotation in which I said something you think is illogical, post it, and we'll take it from there.
See above. You do realize that black swans are the classic example use for in explaining falsifiability, for how not to jump to conclusion, right?
I'm not sure I trust them either. Like I said, people do really stupid things all the time.
But why assume the worse? Professionals are less prone to stupid mistakes than lay people, no?
Of course I use my own experiences to judge what horror other people might go through when they're finally at the brink of death and realize they made a horrible mistake.
But your experiences are meaningless for someone not in the same situation as you.
I would not trust a euthanasia clinic.
Is that distrust specific to euthanasia clinics, or any medical facility? If not, why would you imagine those in euthanasia clinics would be act any less professionally than others?
From what you have posted you think death is the easy way out.
It is the easy way out, that doesn't imply I don't envisage death like you described.

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