ADAM WAS NOT DECIEVED - THE SPIRITUAL REASON WHY

[Eddie Ramos]

The message of the gospel is the central thread which runs through every account in the Bible. The problem is that because the gospel is the spiritual message of the Bible, it is often concealed within the literal account of historical events in the Bible. The Bible refers to is as the spiritual meaning which can be seen by God's people if they search for it. One such example is that of the fall of Adam and Eve. On the surface, we see the serpent talking with Eve. But why did Satan specifically go after Eve and not Adam? Because of who each of them represent spiritually. The Bible tells us that Adam was a figure or typified Christ.

Romans 5:14 (KJV 1900)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Since Adam spiritually represented Christ, then Eve (Adam's wife) represented the bride of Christ (the true believers).

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV 1900)
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Using this spiritual comparison, now we can see why Satan targeted Eve, because Eve, the wife (like the true believers) was the weaker vessel.

Thus Satan deceived Eve into sinning. Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

1 Timothy 2:14 (KJV 1900)
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Well, if Adam was not deceived, then why did he also sin? Well, if we keep the spiritual picture in mind of who they represent, then this scripture comes to mind.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV 1900)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Adam was not deceived into sinning, he sinned willingly because his wife sinned. In other words, he who knew no sin (like Christ) became sin because his wife (the true believers) had become sin. And his punishment was death.

Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV 1900)
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Can anyone see the spiritual picture of the gospel in the account of the fall of mankind per the scriptures?

[William]

There is no denying that Eve was guilty of something, but we are not told what that actually was

We don't need to be told ; all that is needed is critical thinking skills and an ability to read

I am reasonably competent in both, which is why I am able to rightfully ask why that is the only conclusion we can possibly come to, when clearly it has been shown by my argument that The God made no announcement as to what Eve was guilty of, before passing sentence.

So we can declare 'such and such' to fill in the blanks, but the fact of the matter remains. Any claim that the God announced what Eve was guilty of, is proven to be an incorrect claim.

1. There is a prohibition on anyone eating from a particular tree. The penalty for eating from said tree is ... death.

2. Eve made it clear she understood the law but ate from the tree thus breaking the law

3. God judged her adversely, cast her and her husband outside of the garden and eventually they both died

As pointed out, there is no declaration as to what the crimes were. There was simply a punishment incurred.

Now we can examine what disobedience to the God 'is' - by observing the crimes committed.

In that, the God remained silent for many centuries until He gave Moses the commandments - therein we might identify some of the crimes the trio committed.

Skip ahead many more centuries and we have someone claiming to be the Gods Son, telling us that all those commandments can be kept just by observing the first two.

Many more centuries later, we can refer that back to the trio and ask the question "Were they observing the first two commandment in their actions leading up to and including the eating of the fruit?

Then we can ask "was it really just a case of disobedience, or did they lack the knowledge to know any better?"

Stuff like that.

Logically she was guilty of breaking the law that prohibited eating from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad.

Yes, I agree with that. However I have serious doubts that Adam or Eve knew what guilt was until after the fact - and the story implies that too.

Perhaps in their years to come, they contemplated the in's and out's since they then had the means in which to do that.
Without the knowledge of good and evil, how is anyone to know what it is to break laws?

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #50]

The way the serpent is introduced as the most cautious of animals, indicates whoever hid behind the creature had been discretely observing his target for some time.

Well it has to be noted that the God/Devil conspiracy is part of the story...

Now assuming you might be referring to Satan as being the one "hiding behind" the Serpent - as in - the influencing energy pulling the strings...the God - as usual, sits back and expects Adam and Eve to figure it out for themselves without knowing the details.

His initial question would be somewhat redundant had they been intimate long term acquaintances.

Not at all. Given Adams demeanor at the event, it is possible that the Serpent and Adam conspired and Eve was the test-dummy. For that to have happened, would require that the Serpent was intimate with the pair but also had opportunity to speak with them individually...a known way in which con-artist work to prep their intended victims.
The Serpent has to deal with the fear the pair had which was induced by the God threating death to those who ate the fruit. That would require a delicate diplomacy so as to come across as a wise and knowing friend, which would take time to develop.

And whatever the nature of their aquaintence, the Serpent could not have pretended to be their Father and Creator so he was not their life giver and could neither pull rank on YHWH (Jehovah) nor claim to have demonstrated the loving care of the latter.

None of those attributes are mentioned in the story being examined. Later on the God makes such noises but is rather the absent "Father and Creator" re the Garden Paradise Phase - leaving the pair in the company of the Serpent - perhaps confident, perhaps not - that the pair would follow the instruction.

The couple's disloyalty to God remains evident

Yes. As does the testing of that loyalty by the God. That alone implies the God was not confident they would pass the test, but the test had to take place anyway.

whether they knew the angel, knew OF him or (as is more likely) was a total stranger to them

You are perhaps referring to Lucifer/Satan as "the angel"? As pointed out, in order to test the subjects, the angel had to have been granted access and allowed time for the pair to develop trust in said angel.

We know in the stories, that the God often used/allowed Satan - in one guise or another - to test humans/things out.

The result [re Human Beings] is that they failed in not being tempted to eat the fruit but succeeded in having the ability to understand "good" and "evil" enough for them to create their own morals through trial and error and eventually those morals were capitulated into stone and handed to Moses as 'the things humans should do'.

Centuries on and "The Son" makes adjustments to the rules - breaks some of the rules - reduces the rules by compressing the 10 into 2...and we know through that, that it is evil not to love the God or one another, and that such is not good and we are unlikely to succeed as a species if we don't do those two things...

[JehovahsWitness]

Logically she was guilty of breaking the law that prohibited eating from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad.

Yes, I agree with that. However I have serious doubts that Adam or Eve knew what guilt was until after the fact - and the story implies that too.

Why should they ? Prior to their sin they had nothing to feel guilty about. They may have known the concept... but they certainly did not know what guilt felt like until they did something to feel guilty about.

For more details please go to other posts related to...

.THE GARDEN OF EDEN , ORIGINAL SIN and ... THE DECEPTION OF EVE

[William]

Logically she was guilty of breaking the law that prohibited eating from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad.

Yes, I agree with that. However I have serious doubts that Adam or Eve knew what guilt was until after the fact - and the story implies that too.

Why should they ? Prior to their sin they had nothing to feel guilty about.

In that case it can be presumed that the fruit was merely a placebo, since it was the act which brought on the guilt and the guilt which brought on the realization of good and evil.

They may have known the concept...

Not without acquiring the knowledge of G&E

but they certainly did not know what guilt felt like until they did something to feel guilty about.

In that, they could have both had sexual relations with the Serpent and with the other animals, and felt no guilt, since there was no law in place to forbid them from doing so.

They could have just poohed anywhere, and felt no guilt-related emotions [such as embarrassment]

...and stuff like that...

[JehovahsWitness]

In that case it can be presumed that the fruit was merely a placebo, since it was the act which brought on the guilt ...

I'm not sure the word "placebo" is right in this circumstance but yes the guilt (as with all guilt) came from the illicit action not the object.

A child that feels guilty for eating the chocolate cookies he has been told not to, isn't feeling the effects of the chocolate (there isnt a guilt inducing chemical in the chocolate) he feels gulity because he knows he has done something that he was told not to.

There wasn't something in the fruit that created a chemical change in Adam and Eve that induced guilt, they felt guilt (and shame) because they knew they had done something they should not have. Their guilt was indeed the phycological effect of a perceived action (a "nocebo" effect perhaps?)





JW



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For more details please go to other posts related to...

.THE GARDEN OF EDEN , ADAM , and ... THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

[William]

William: In that case it can be presumed that the fruit was merely a placebo, since it was the act which brought on the guilt ...

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

I'm not sure the word "placebo" is right in this circumstance but yes the guilt (as with all guilt) came from the illicit action not the object.

Just as the healing comes from the belief rather than the sugar pill...

There wasn't something in the fruit that created a chemical change in Adam and Eve that induced guilt, they felt guilt (and shame) because they knew they had done something they should not have. Their guilt was indeed the phycological effect of a perceived action (a "nocebo" effect perhaps?)

Since the affect [death] is considered a negative [re punishment] "nocebo" is the better word to use, yes.

This also signifies that the Serpent was correct [not lying/was telling the truth] that eating the fruit wouldn't cause them to die, since the fruit had no such properties.

[Revelations won]

To all respondents,

After reviewing the various replies I I see some good points and some not so good. While opinions differ on this topic I suspect that there is a most important fundamental question that should be understood and answered correctly.

DID GOD THE FATHER IN ALL HIS WISDOM AND ALL KNOWING PLAN, INTEND FOR US AS HIS SPIRIT CHILDREN TO BE TRIED AND TESTED AS MORTAL BEINGS? IN OTHER WORDS IS MORTALITY A PART AND PARCEL OF HIS DIVINE PLAN?

Let's examine the evidence.

Kind regards,
RW

[William]

To all respondents,

After reviewing the various replies I I see some good points and some not so good. While opinions differ on this topic I suspect that there is a most important fundamental question that should be understood and answered correctly.

DID GOD THE FATHER IN ALL HIS WISDOM AND ALL KNOWING PLAN, INTEND FOR US AS HIS SPIRIT CHILDREN TO BE TRIED AND TESTED AS MORTAL BEINGS? IN OTHER WORDS IS MORTALITY A PART AND PARCEL OF HIS DIVINE PLAN?

Let's examine the evidence.

Kind regards,
RW

On the assumption that we exist within a creation, then I would argue that a Creator-GOD did intend for us to experience as real, this Created Universe.
If the mortal experience is interpreted by any experiencing it to be a trial and a test of some sort, this may not signify any truth in the interpretation as the individuals response to the experience may be a mis-interpretation of what is going on.

What I could agree to is that this would have been one of the known responses of the Creator-God if that entity did indeed posses the attributes you stipulate with your question.

Mortality appears to be part of that plan. Experiencing what it is like to die. [Death].

I note the above, because people are not only born, and then experience this universe through that process [live], and respond to the experience [living] in whatever fashion they chose to respond, but also experience dying and death - something which signifies the end of the experience for the individual who dies.

Born. Live the experience. Die.

Therefore;

[Revelations won]

Dear William,

Thank you for your well thought out response.

However it appears that all of the JW’s are very reluctant to answer this question so far. Please feel free to state your position on this question with a clear YES or NO answer.

Kind regards,
RW

[William]

Dear William,

Thank you for your well thought out response.

However it appears that all of the JW’s are very reluctant to answer this question so far. Please feel free to state your position on this question with a clear YES or NO answer.

Kind regards,
RW

I looked at the question RW and think that there might be two questions.

Q:1: Did God the Father in all his wisdom and all knowing plan, intend for us as his spirit children to be tried and tested as mortal beings?

William: I don't know.

Q:2: Is mortality a part and parcel of his divine plan?



William: [For reasons I have already mentioned].