The thief on the cross misconceptions

DJT_47 · Post by **DJT_47** » Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:10 pm

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:39 am

Jesus said we should be baptised , so we should be baptised end of story. How he judges the unbaptised is up to him, but as far as it is dependent on us, all new converts should be baptised.

1213 · Post by **1213** » Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:23 am

DJT_47 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:10 pm I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

When Jesus set the baptism, he didn't say it is for salvation, he said:

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

Should I believe Jesus or someone else?

And the salvation, forgiveness of sins is in the words Jesus said and:

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Baptism is a requirement only because some people have decided so. And, when disciples of Jesus have the right to forgive, they can set a condition to how they forgive. But it is not necessary, and it is not requirement set by Jesus. But are you a disciple of Jesus?

DJT_47 · Post by **DJT_47** » Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:03 am

Baptism isca requirement of salvation set by God not by man contrary to your comment, as the scriptures clearly indicate. The precedent was established by John's baptism prior to Jesus declaration. See Luke 3:3. John's baptism was the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, exactly as was cited in Acts 2:38, which was also for the remission of sins except it was in the name of Jesus Christ. If it's not required by scripture, how do you explain the below? And Acts 2:38-47 also says not only for the remission of sins, but also to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as well as verse 47 says the Lord adds you to his church as a result of being baptized. You are 100% wrong and inconsistent with the word of God.

Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

William · Post by **William** » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:54 pm

[Replying to DJT_47 in post #1]

And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ.

If this dogma is correct;
explain why Jesus was baptized before his death and not after his resurrection...

William · Post by **William** » Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:57 pm

[Replying to DJT_47 in post #4]

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

Ultimately who is damned and who is not, is not for any human to determine.

What is the point of baptism, should be disclosed and understood clearly - it appears to be an outward ritual designed to give some type of example to others but what actual witness is it to a personalities commitment to belief?

Christian: "Do you believe?"
The one being questioned: "Yes".
Christian: "Have you been baptized?"
The one being questioned: "No"
Christian: "Then you do not really believe"

What exactly is one being asked to believe in?

DJT_47 · Post by **DJT_47** » Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:43 pm

To William. The gospel is what is yo be believed in, and whst is that? Thst Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who became flesh and lived and died gir the sins of man. That's it in it's simplicity. Read the account of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. Philip preached Jesus to him, he asked about baptism because they were near water, so baptism was obviously a part of Philip's gospel preaching. Philip said he could be baptized if he believed. He confessed his belief and was immediately baptized.

And the baptism of John had nothing to do with the baptism into Christ, so, Jesus couldn't be baptized into himself and he was not yet dead, nor had Jesus any sins to be removed, he being sinless. Jesus was baptized to fulfill righteousness Matthew 3:15

William · Post by **William** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:35 pm

[Replying to DJT_47 in post #7]

I will go with what Jesus said to the unbaptized "pertinent" thief.

‘today you will be with me in Paradise’.

Ultimately who is damned and who is not, is not for any human to make judgement about any other...

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:01 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:39 am Jesus said we should be baptised , so we should be baptised end of story. How he judges the unbaptised is up to him, but as far as it is dependent on us, all new converts should be baptised.

I notice that you say "should be baptized." Does this mean that baptism isn't really necessary? And, doesn't Jesus judge everyone, including the baptized? I'm assuming baptism doesn't give one a free pass to heaven. If this is true then what's to be gained by being baptized?

.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:25 pm

Miles wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:01 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:39 am .... How he judges the unbaptised is up to him, but as far as it is dependent on us, all new converts should be baptised.
...doesn't Jesus judge everyone, including the baptized?

Yes.

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The thief on the cross misconceptions

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Re: The thief on the cross misconceptions

Re: The thief on the cross misconceptions

Re: The thief on the cross misconceptions

Re: The thief on the cross misconceptions

Re: The thief on the cross misconceptions