When Exactly Did Jesus Become The Son of God?

[RedEye]

There seems to be a massive conflict between the gospel authors as to when precisely Jesus attained the status of "Son of God".

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

• Mark 1
  9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.� 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God. (So much for human free will). The gospel of Matthew echoes this view.

Then we have Paul who has Jesus becoming the Son of God only after his resurrection:

• Romans 1
  1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Next we have the gospel of Luke which has Jesus being appointed as the Son of God at his birth:

• Luke 1
  35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Finally, we have the gospel of John which has Jesus as the Son of God right from the very beginning of everything:

• John 1
  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
  ...
  14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So there we have four wildly conflicting versions of when Jesus attained the status of being the Son of God in the New Testament. They can't all be correct. So, if you are a Christian, which of these "divinely inspired" writers is correct and how did the others get it so badly wrong?

[Elijah John]

There seems to be a massive conflict between the gospel authors as to when precisely Jesus attained the status of "Son of God".

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

• Mark 1
  9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.� 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God. (So much for human free will). The gospel of Matthew echoes this view.

Then we have Paul who has Jesus becoming the Son of God only after his resurrection:

• Romans 1
  1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Next we have the gospel of Luke which has Jesus being appointed as the Son of God at his birth:

• Luke 1
  35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Finally, we have the gospel of John which has Jesus as the Son of God right from the very beginning of everything:

• John 1
  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
  ...
  14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So there we have four wildly conflicting versions of when Jesus attained the status of being the Son of God in the New Testament. They can't all be correct. So, if you are a Christian, which of these "divinely inspired" writers is correct and how did the others get it so badly wrong?

Orthodoxy has the answer. The Gospel of John is favored in this, and in many other things as well. If Jesus is Son of God from the beginning of Creation, then the other renderings are simply compimentary re-affirmations, and not contraditions. Or so it goes, anyway.

And that gives rise to the Creed: "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God. Begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father."

So here Jesus goes beyond the title of "Son of God" to becoming "God the Son" the second person of the Trinity, I.e, God Himself.

[1213]

…The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:…

It actually tells only that God told Jesus is His son, and the spirit thing. It doesn’t mean Jesus was not His son before it.

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God. (So much for human free will). The gospel of Matthew echoes this view.

I recommend not to add own fiction to what the Bible tells.

Then we have Paul who has Jesus becoming the Son of God only after his resurrection:

• Romans 1
  1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

You have good example of strawman argument here also. He was appointed, or as some translations say, declared. Declared doesn’t mean he wasn’t son of God before it, it means, in those situations it was declared. It is possible to declare it many ways, in many different situations. There is really no contradiction in these.

[JehovahsWitness]

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

Biblically, Jesus did indeed become a spirit-anointed born again son of God at the moment of his baptism, but that doesn't mean the bible doesn't present Jesus as a human son of God prior to that moment.

MARK 1:10

And immediately on coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens being parted and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him. And a voice came out of the heavens: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.�

NOTE: If a man presents his wife of 30 years to his new boss saying "This is my wife" would the boss presume he had just married her. It is unreasonable to assume that because there is no biblical record of God declaring within human hearing Jesus to be his son previous to his baptism, he was not God's son prior to that moment? A son usually becomes such at the start of his existence not at the moment that existence is recorded.





JW



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[RedEye]

There seems to be a massive conflict between the gospel authors as to when precisely Jesus attained the status of "Son of God".

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

• Mark 1
  9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.� 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God. (So much for human free will). The gospel of Matthew echoes this view.

Then we have Paul who has Jesus becoming the Son of God only after his resurrection:

• Romans 1
  1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Next we have the gospel of Luke which has Jesus being appointed as the Son of God at his birth:

• Luke 1
  35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Finally, we have the gospel of John which has Jesus as the Son of God right from the very beginning of everything:

• John 1
  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
  ...
  14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So there we have four wildly conflicting versions of when Jesus attained the status of being the Son of God in the New Testament. They can't all be correct. So, if you are a Christian, which of these "divinely inspired" writers is correct and how did the others get it so badly wrong?

Orthodoxy has the answer. The Gospel of John is favored in this, and in many other things as well. If Jesus is Son of God from the beginning of Creation, then the other renderings are simply compimentary re-affirmations, and not contraditions. Or so it goes, anyway.

You vote that John is correct? That's fine but it makes the others wrong. You can claim that there are no contradictions but the verses I quoted show clear contradictions. You can't just hand-wave them away. In fact John is probably the most recent gospel so the author deliberately went against the claims of the others. Was the author of John "more" divinely inspired?

[RedEye]

…The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:…

It actually tells only that God told Jesus is His son, and the spirit thing. It doesn’t mean Jesus was not His son before it.

If Jesus was already the Son of God then he was already divine. You would need to explain why the "spirit thing" would need to descend upon him and why it would then direct him to do things. It makes no sense unless Jesus did not become the Son of God until that moment (when the Spirit entered him).

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God. (So much for human free will). The gospel of Matthew echoes this view.

I recommend not to add own fiction to what the Bible tells.

It's the logical conclusion if an outside entity enters your body and then takes over. The Spirit "sent him out into the wilderness". How is that not body/mind invasion?

Then we have Paul who has Jesus becoming the Son of God only after his resurrection:

• Romans 1
  1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

You have good example of strawman argument here also. He was appointed, or as some translations say, declared. Declared doesn’t mean he wasn’t son of God before it, it means, in those situations it was declared. It is possible to declare it many ways, in many different situations. There is really no contradiction in these.

You ignore "by his resurrection from the dead". He had to have died and been resurrected first. This could not be more clear.

[RedEye]

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

Biblically, Jesus did indeed become a spirit-anointed born again son of God at the moment of his baptism, but that doesn't mean the bible doesn't present Jesus as a human son of God prior to that moment.

If you believe the Bible then everyone is a human son of God. You are making an irrelevant distinction. We are discussing Jesus as the Son of God, ie. a divine Jesus not a human one.

MARK 1:10
And immediately on coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens being parted and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him. And a voice came out of the heavens: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.�

NOTE: If a man presents his wife of 30 years to his new boss saying "This is my wife" would the boss presume he had just married her. It is unreasonable to assume that because there is no biblical record of God declaring within human hearing Jesus to be his son previous to his baptism, he was not God's son prior to that moment? A son usually becomes such at the start of his existence not at the moment that existence is recorded.

A false analogy does not help you. An apt analogy would be to have the marriage ceremony in front of the boss. This is exactly what the verse in gMark is describing. The Holy Spirit descending on the human Jesus and then directing him to do things. The only possible conclusion is that this is the point at which God made him his divine Son.

[bjs]

There seems to be a massive conflict between the gospel authors as to when precisely Jesus attained the status of "Son of God".

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

• Mark 1
  9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.� 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God.

You underline that phrase, “the Spirit descending on him like a dove� but there is nothing in the passage to suggest that the arrival of the Spirit somehow made Jesus into the Son of God.

If I said to my son, “You are my son, whom I love,� then no rational person would suggest that I meant that he had not been my son prior to that moment. Rather, the statement implies that he had always been my son and I was reaffirming my love for him.

Mark’s Gospel does not suggest anything like Jesus having his brain taken over in anyway.

The natural reading of the passage clearly suggests that Jesus was already the Son of God before that moment.

[RedEye]

There seems to be a massive conflict between the gospel authors as to when precisely Jesus attained the status of "Son of God".

The gospel of Mark has Jesus becoming Son of God upon his baptism:

• Mark 1
  9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.� 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,

In this version the human-born Jesus is a victim of body invasion and his brain is taken over by the Spirit of God.

You underline that phrase, “the Spirit descending on him like a dove� but there is nothing in the passage to suggest that the arrival of the Spirit somehow made Jesus into the Son of God.

Then what is that about? If Jesus was already the divine Son of God why would the Spirit descend upon him (and presumably enter him)? That makes no sense.

If I said to my son, “You are my son, whom I love,� then no rational person would suggest that I meant that he had not been my son prior to that moment. Rather, the statement imply that he had always been my son and I was reaffirming my love for him.

You are ignoring the context of the entire passage I quoted. You can't take one phrase in isolation and ignore the rest.

Mark’s Gospel does not suggest anything like Jesus having his brain taken over in anyway.

It does to me. See verse 12.

The natural reading of the passage clearly suggests that Jesus was already the Son of God before that moment.

No, the natural reading is that something from God entered the man Jesus and then proceeded to control him. It is only at that point that Jesus was transformed into the Son of God.

[JehovahsWitness]

BORN AGAIN

QUESTION: In what sense did Jesus become God's Son at his baptism?


Biblically, Jesus become a spirit-anointed born again son of God* at the moment of his baptism, he later described this process as being "born again". Mark points out ....

MARK 1:10

And immediately on coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens being parted and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him. And a voice came out of the heavens: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.�

What is the spirit?

• God's spirit is God's active force, his applied power in action. The bible later spoke about that same spirit filling (acting on) 120 people at the same time. Jesus, explaining about this very process, compared it to the wind that we cannot see but the effect of which can be observed.
  
  For more on God's Spirit see link below
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 560#877560

WHY are people born again?

• Jesus explained that "unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God". The "water" would be the water into which a person is submerged when he is baptised, the "spirit" would be God's holy spirit which is applied to a Christian to indicate they have been selected to be one of the 144, 000 members of God's heavenly kingdom government. So while all True Christians shoild be baptised only a select few are "born again" signalling that if faithful they will be going to heaven after they die, so being born of spirit is thus a metaphor for becoming a "adopted" child of God; as in being accepted by him as potentially joining God in heaven as a part of his spirit family.
  
  Further Reading: What Does It Mean to Be Born Again?
  https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... orn-again/

[*] NOTE: Jesus became the only begotten son of God at the start of his existence as a mighty spirit son known as "The Word" ions before his birth on earth. He became a human son of God at his miraculous conception without a human father.

CONCLUSION The key to understanding what happened to Jesus at his baptism lies in understanding what it means to be born of spirit, namely as a spirit anointed son destined to live in the heavenly realm.

JW



RELATED POSTS


When did Jesus become the "Son of God"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 041#946041

Do all good people go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 615#878615

Was Jesus "divine"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 896#870896


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses