Conscience

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Would a good and fair God make people whose consciences are simply wrong?

I've long had this idea of Christians, and maybe it's an unfair one, that they must think that anyone who disagrees with them about morality is either brainwashed or lying. The reason being that unless God intentionally makes people inherently evil and not merely weak and prone to sinfulness, everyone has to, at least, have a conscience that points in the right direction. They can be weak, they can give in, they can be tempted, but they at least have to know right from wrong, genuinely, or the idea that we're all morally responsible for what we do falls apart. The idea that we're supposed to overcome weakness and do what is right, ultimately, is tenable. The idea that God creates some of us to think up is down and punishes us for then swimming in the wrong direction... at least I don't see how it could hold.

But I do see a few alternatives that generate some consistency, one of which I brought up in the last paragraph.

1) Clever people can brainwash and trick, even about morality.
This would simply involve people being convinced that their consciences point the wrong way, when in fact they're true North. Arguably this could explain moral conflict in a way that did not implicate God for crafting anyone in such a way as to make them inherently evil. The clever liar knows what he's doing is wrong, and he can trick someone else into thinking it's right. The tricked person can genuinely believe the liar, and there we can have genuine moral conflict without a petty and scheming God.

2) The Plan with a Capital P
Maybe God needs someone to do something immoral at some juncture and they won't do it unless they think it is moral. This doesn't necessarily implicate God as nasty nor Christians as those who think people who have a genuine disagreement about morality are lying.

3) Ignorance is Necessary
This is a very weird thought but it could be that we live in a universe of such fundamental chaos and/or vileness that everything we do is actually evil and the only way to create good is to limit our capacity to understand what we are doing.

[brunumb]

Scripturally God does not create anything that is not entirely righteous and all humans along with free will have according to the bible been endowed with a conscience which normally alerts us to the things which God views as right or wrong.

How would you regard the serpent in Eden? What happened to that endowed conscience in Adam and Eve?

Unfortunately however, due to our inherited imperfection (and the influence of this world controlled by Satan) this natural inner law or conscience can be dulled, perverted or even killed off altogether, leading people to commit the most heinous acts imaginable.

How is it reasonable to hold to account imperfect people under the influence of Satan whose natural inner law or conscience has been dulled, perverted or even killed off altogether?

[JehovahsWitness]

How is it reasonable to hold to account imperfect people under the influence of Satan whose natural inner law or conscience has been dulled, perverted or even killed off altogether?

Hello and thank you for your question.

The bible explains that God kindly does not judge those ignorant of his laws adversly. He is aware of our limitations and looks not to what we are but what we can be (Psalm 103:14). According to scripture, thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ all those that put faith in him can be forgiven their sins and gain everlasting life despite their imperfections (John 3:16).

IT IS POSSIBLE TO BREAK FREE FROM THE SATANIC INFLUENCE IF THIS WORLD

The bible explains that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. Satan the Devil manipulates the political, religious and commercial systems of this world to his end and holds people in spiritual darkness (see 1 John 15:19; 2 Cor 4:4). The good news is that his powers are limited. Scripturally, all those with hearts rightly inclined can be helped to break free from this world's darkness into the light of spiritual truth.

A GLOBAL EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM

All those that wish to please God must however comform to his standards for them. This will involve learning from the bible what they are and making the necessary changes in their thinking and behaviours. They thus reeducate their consciences to become sensitive to Gods standards of right and wrong. This will mean leaving behind things the world sees as fine and acceptable in favor of seeing things Gods way (2 Cor 6:9-10).

Jehovah's Witnesses are currently conducting a global outreach program to help all those that wish to learn what they need to do to please their creator. By means of a bible based study program millions are currently learning that despite their own past, their imperfect condition and the system of things they can change and put themselves in line for blessings now and everlasting life in the future.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS

To learn more please go to other posts related to

ORIGINAL SIN THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ...THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

[TRANSPONDER]

Unfortunately however, due to our inherited imperfection (and the influence of this world controlled by Satan) this natural inner law or conscience can be dulled, perverted or even killed off altogether, leading people to commit the most heinous acts imaginable.

What I'm most curious about is both your opinion on this and what you think is scripturally founded.

Would it, or would it not follow, that at least once for each person led down the wrong path, there was a point at which genuine introspection would have put them on the right one?

It seems to me that it follows from the idea that we all do technically have the ability not to sin. That ability would (perhaps must) in the case of a misled person, take the shape of the ability to think critically about the situation, compare it to one's conscience, and either come to an instantaneous revelation of "No, that's not right," or come to a contradiction in what one was told was right.

It seems as if people really don't do this, not in any numbers. The liberal and conservative both preach a sort of morality, and the conservative will decry public nudity, but laugh off the idea that someone else's feelbads override his precious freedom. The liberal, likewise, is more likely to see the nudity as basic freedom, likewise laugh off the idea that the conservative's feelbads override it, and at the same time insist that the conservative not say things that undermine his identity. I look at these fellows and think that if they thought about it the least bit, each would just see a mirror, and in it, and intransigent bloorbity-gorp convinced that he is entitled above the other to arrange the board, the rules, and the minutiae for his own benefit.

The world seems very much to have gone mad because this is not some revelation about quantum physics that normal people couldn't understand if they tried. This is something they used to teach to children... little tiny children... who I assume were always capable of understanding it. If they weren't I don't see the point of this book. There is a legitimate question along these lines about about one's ability to understand, itself, being eroded. Let's let these Zax stand for the misled people. Do they have free will? And to what degree? Is it possible they've completely lost the ability to think seriously about the situation they find themselves in? And if so, was there a point at which they could have saved themselves from becoming that?

The problem that pops up in front of my atheist face is the one of Dogma ("It ought to be like this, why isn't it? We must be doing something wrong") and a square peg in a round hole. Trying to interpret the way the world is and the way we are in terms of religion (and Sin) rather than biology (and instinct) is too much akin to what Einstein called doing the same thing and expecting to get a different answer.

I have always thought of Peanuts (Charles Schultz cartoon) as being quite philosophical and thought - provoking (when he wasn't being intolerably cutesey). I would rather go to his comic strips than the Bible for good thoughts.

Take the one where Charlie Brown is fuming because he can't write letters as perfectly as in the calligraphy book. "Of course you can't, charlie Brown' " (says Linus) "Neither could the person who wrote this book. He took the best letters and did a paste up to make it look like it was done perfectly". It doesn't go on to say "This is an ideal of perfection that nobody can actually reach; you just do your best to improve in that direction and don't fret that you and nobody else will ever be as perfect." But that is not what a comic does (Charlie Brown wonders whom he can sue) nor religion, which having sold you the 'collect the tokens and win the prize' scam keeps you buying the tokens in hopes of getting the set, which you never will.

It is a con based on an apparently feasible premise - "keep improving and you will get better" which is fine morals (unless 'get better' means "get more sunk in faithbased denial) but not fine when it is a scam of 'keep buying our product in hopes to get this prize or reward that you never will'. Because on all reason and evidence, it doesn't exist.

And time for another mustwatch atheist playlist relevant vid. on this point of the religious Ponzi scheme.

[JoeyKnothead]

The bible explains that God kindly does not judge those ignorant of his laws adversly. He is aware of our limitations and looks not to what we are but what we can be (Psalm 103:14). According to scripture, thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ all those that put faith in him can be forgiven their sins and gain everlasting life despite their imperfections (John 3:16).

Unless that imperfection is an inability to believe something in the void of evidence for it.

IT IS POSSIBLE TO BREAK FREE FROM THE SATANIC INFLUENCE OF THIS WORLD

YOU CAN'T EVEN SHOW THERE'S A SATANIC INFLUENCE IN THIS WORLD.

The bible explains that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. Satan the Devil manipulates the political, religious and commercial systems of this world to his end and holds people in spiritual darkness (see 1 John 15:19; 2 Cor 4:4). The good news is that his powers are limited. Scripturally, all those with hearts rightly inclined can be helped to break free from this world's darkness into the light of spiritual truth.

I challenge you to put truth to any of that.

All those that wish to please God must however conform to his standards for them.

Where has this been established as truth?

It astounds me how so many Christians think quoting the bible is some sort of confirmation for biblical claims.

...Snip sermon....

[TRANSPONDER]

How is it reasonable to hold to account imperfect people under the influence of Satan whose natural inner law or conscience has been dulled, perverted or even killed off altogether?

Hello and thank you for your question.

The bible explains that God kindly does not judge those ignorant of his laws adversly. He is aware of our limitations and looks not to what we are but what we can be (Psalm 103:14). According to scripture, thanks to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ all those that put faith in him can be forgiven their sins and gain everlasting life despite their imperfections (John 3:16).

IT IS POSSIBLE TO BREAK FREE FROM THE SATANIC INFLUENCE IF THIS WORLD

The bible explains that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. Satan the Devil manipulates the political, religious and commercial systems of this world to his end and holds people in spiritual darkness (see 1 John 15:19; 2 Cor 4:4). The good news is that his powers are limited. Scripturally, all those with hearts rightly inclined can be helped to break free from this world's darkness into the light of spiritual truth.

A GLOBAL EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM

All those that wish to please God must however comform to his standards for them. This will involve learning from the bible what they are and making the necessary changes in their thinking and behaviours. They thus reeducate their consciences to become sensitive to Gods standards of right and wrong. This will mean leaving behind things the world sees as fine and acceptable in favor of seeing things Gods way (2 Cor 6:9-10).

Jehovah's Witnesses are currently conducting a global outreach program to help all those that wish to learn what they need to do to please their creator. By means of a bible based study program millions are currently learning that despite their own past, their imperfect condition and the system of things they can change and put themselves in line for blessings now and everlasting life in the future.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS

To learn more please go to other posts related to

SIN, THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH

That does not compute. You say God does not judge those ignorant of his laws adversely, and you imply that he is aware of our imperfections. But you also say that those who wish to please him will conform to his standards.

The argument seeming that those who don't do so will not please God, but he won't 'judge' them adversely for itand not at all if they never heard hi law. So if there is no pentaly (the whole point of judgement) then none of it matters and if none of it matters if we never heard the Laws then He should never have given us the Laws in the first place. In effect, God wanting to save us could have just 'saved us' in a simple forgiveness without imposing this absurd system of laws and judgement which is all Our fault, not His.

Like I say, that does not compute.

[JoeyKnothead]

That does not compute. You say God does not judge those ignorant of his laws adversely, and you imply that he is aware of our imperfections. But you also say that those who wish to please him will conform to his standards.

The argument seeming that those who don't do so will not please God, but he won't 'judge' them adversely for itand not at all if they never heard hi law. So if there is no pentaly (the whole point of judgement) then none of it matters and if none of it matters if we never heard the Laws then He should never have given us the Laws in the first place. In effect, God wanting to save us could have just 'saved us' in a simple forgiveness without imposing this absurd system of laws and judgement which is all Our fault, not His.

Like I say, that does not compute.

Eskimo: If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to Hell?
Priest: No, not if you did not know.
Eskimo: Then why did you tell me?

[JehovahsWitness]

What happened to that endowed conscience in Adam and Eve?

They ignored it.



A conscience is essentially an internal warning system that tells someone that something is wrong and/or not to proceed. It can be likened to traffic light on a road. When a warning sign is seen to "turn around" or "proceed with caution" due to, for example, dangerous road conditions ahead the driver can either do the wise thing or ignore the warnings and forge ahead regardless. In a similar way, scripturally a person's conscience can be ignored if they are determined to do so.



We know Adam and Eve each had a working conscience because evidently, they felt ashamed of themselves after they disobeyed God. Sadly for them and for all mankind, they chose to ignore their god given consciences for selfish reasons and lived to regret their decision.




JW


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SIN , DEATH, and ...CONSCIENCE

[JehovahsWitness]

Would it, or would it not follow, that at least once for each person led down the wrong path, there was a point at which genuine introspection would have put them on the right one?

Certainly most people do know certain behaviours such as stealing, murder and adultery are wrong and when tempted many would reflect on this and refrain from such behaviours. Saddly however stealing, murder and adultery still happen so evidently others either do not view such things as wrong or go against their consciences and do them anyway.



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Can a person train a damaged or defective conscience?
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[JoeyKnothead]

What happened to that endowed conscience in Adam and Eve?

They ignored it. A conscience is essentially an internal warning system that tells them that something is wrong and/or not to proceed. It wan be likened to traffic light on a road.

Did Adam or Eve have their license, that we may confirm they understand traffic lights?

...
We know Adam and Eve each had a working conscience because evidently they felt ashamed of themselves after they disobeyed God.

I think Eve saw Adam and she let out a giggle, then they both regretted it.

Sadly for them and for all mankind, they chose to ignore their god given consciences for selfish reasons and lived to regret their decision.

To Hell with any god who'd condemn me to it.

I do the best I can with a limited number of brain cells. If God don't like it, he shoulda given me more.

[brunumb]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #12]

How does any of that help if I am an imperfect person under the influence of Satan whose natural inner law or conscience has been dulled, perverted or even killed off altogether? That could be why I don't believe a word of what you said. The premise is absurd. There is no evidence of Satan or God or anything supernatural. The greatest tragedy for human beings was when religion reared its ugly head.