Other sheep - Little flock

[MissKate13]

What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

What Scripture says the “little flock” are the 144,000?

I can find no Scripture that says “great crowd of other sheep,” nor can I find a verse which says the “little flock of 144,000.

[MissKate13]

In John 10:16 Jesus spoke of two groups of sheep both of which belong to him. Two groups or catagorizations of sheep. If we take the "sheep" to represent "followers" and Christian to mean "follower of Christ" then Jesus did indeed indicate there would be two groups of Christians*.

Interestingly, at the time of Jesus speaking, that 2nd group where not in evidence.. In other words the 2nd group would become manifeste some time in the future of Jesus speaking.

Jesus refers to the Jews in John 10:16 as “this fold.” He says He has other sheep that are not of this fold. Both groups Jesus speaks of are sheep. You are correct when you say the second group of sheep would be manifested at a later time.

Now let me ask you this. Why can’t the second group be Gentiles? Weren’t they manifested at a later time? Can we agree that the one flock is His church? Can we agree that the Gentiles came into the church a decade or two after Pentecost? Tell me why they can’t be the other sheep.

*NOTE We are not talking'of two "types of Christian" there is only one type of Christian but two groups in that some are inside the pen/fold and some are not. The only difference between the sheep seems to be their location. Class or "classification" is not to be confused with status, rank or value.

That is not true. You have an anointed (ruling) class and a non anointed (being ruled over) class. There are other differences as well. Watchtower teaches that Jesus only mediates for the anointed class, and that the anointed class are the only sheep who have entered into the new covenant.

I know you don’t like hearing it, but Jesus’ kingdom is here now. He is ruling over His kingdom. His sheep (all who have believed and have obeyed His gospel) are ruling with Him. They are priests and kings in His kingdom.

[MissKate13]

Are the "other sheep" "the great crowd"? Technology, no; the "Great crowd" are identified as survivors of "the great tribulation", the other sheep are any Christians (no matter when they lived in history) that do not entertain a heavenly hope (see below).

All true followers of Christ are part of the great crowd, whether they come through the great tribulation or not.

Why do Jehovahs Witnesses refer to "the great crowd of other sheep” ? They don't (or they shouldnt). They should refer to the “great crowd” of “other sheep” correctly placing "<---- quotation marks ----> " as in our publications to reflect scriptual reference (Revelation 7:4, 9; John 10:16).

Jesus refers to them as “other sheep.” But what Jesus doesn’t say is that “this fold,” which we know are Jews, will be “the anointed ruling class.”

The bible indicates that those selected by God to rule from heaven will all be raised to their heavenly post by the end of the tribulation. Thus all who survive (come out ) of the aforementioned Great Tribulation, will logically be able to be identifed by both "appellations".

Scripture please.

color=#0040FF]What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?[/color] The deeper bible truths are not discernable from taking single scriptures out of the context of the entire bible message; that members of the "great crowd" will all be "other sheep" is can be understood by reasoning on every scripture in the bible.

It is much more discernible when you consider that the other sheep are the Gentiles who Jesus brought into the fold. This interpretation agrees so much more with the overall teaching of the Bible. Watchtower interpretation creates two classes of Christians whereas the interpretation since the inception of the church has been that the other sheep are Gentiles, and both Jew and Gentile believers are ONE FLOCK, which is the Lord’s church. One class of Christian’s who will one day dwell in heaven with both God and the lamb. Paradise-earth is a man made term. It’s not Biblical.

Notice in Revelation 7 where the great crowd is. They are in heaven standing before the throne of God.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #6]

I don’t do links.

[tam]

Peace to you,

What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

The other sheep that Christ said He had to call are Christian and are, therefore, part of the Great Crowd (at Rev 7).

But the little flock and the sheep that Christ had yet to call all become ONE FLOCK, with ONE Shepherd.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

ALL are Christian. ALL listen to His voice (the voice of their Shepherd). All have the SAME hope.

What Scripture says the “little flock” are the 144,000?

None.

The 144 000 are descended from the tribes of Israel listed in Revelation. These are the ones from Israel that God reserved for Himself. These ones can be counted because God set that number.

More from Israel can be Christian, of course, but 144 000 places (12000 from each of the listed tribes) are reserved specifically for Israel.

I can find no Scripture that says “great crowd of other sheep,” nor can I find a verse which says the “little flock of 144,000.

That is because these are the interpretations (and terms) that a religion came up with.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[MissKate13]

Peace to you,

What Scripture says the “other sheep” are the great crowd?

The other sheep that Christ said He had to call are Christian and are, therefore, part of the Great Crowd (at Rev 7).

When Jesus said “other sheep” in John 10:16, He was referring to the Gentiles. We read in Acts 10 about Cornelius and his household being the first Gentiles to obey the gospel call. As a result they became part of the one flock, which is the great crowd or multitude, the figurative number of 144,000 we read about in Revelation. They are the true followers of Christ.

But the little flock and the sheep that Christ had yet to call all become ONE FLOCK, with ONE Shepherd.

I agree. The little flock Jesus spoke of were His disciples.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

When Jesus said “this fold,” He was referring to the Jews who believed Him.. The other sheep were the Gentiles who obeyed the gospel call. Cornelius and his household were the first Gentiles to enter into the one flock.

ALL are Christian. ALL listen to His voice (the voice of their Shepherd). All have the SAME hope.[

All who obey the gospel call, both Jew and Gentile. are Christians. Those who do not believe Jesus is the Son of God and do not do what He says are not.

The 144 000 are descended from the tribes of Israel listed in Revelation. These are the ones from Israel that God reserved for Himself. These ones can be counted because God set that number.

The number 144,000 is not to be taken literally. Most of Revelation is written in the figurative sense. I believe the 144,000 are the “great crowd.” And they are in heaven, not so-called Paradise earth. They are standing before the throne of God.

More from Israel can be Christian, of course, but 144 000 places (12000 from each of the listed tribes) are reserved specifically for Israel.

Again, not literally 144,000.

That is because these are the interpretations (and terms) that a religion came up with.

Agree

[JehovahsWitness]

ARE THE "OTHER SHEEP" OF JOHN 10:16, GENTILE CHRISTIANS ?



There are those that propose that Jesus was referring to gentile believes when he referred to his "other sheep" and others who claimed that he was referring to the so-salled lost tribes of Israel. A close examination of Jesus actual words reveal neither proposition can be true.


OUT OF THE OLD INTO THE NEW

Jesus words at John 10:16 can only be properly understood in context. Notice, the shepherd initially found his sheep in a different pen.

JOHN 10 : 2-4

....the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him ...

So Jesus the Great Shepherd finds his sheep already in a pen* protected with a door and a doorkeeper. The latter recognizes Jesus as the rightful Shepherd and opens the way for him to lead them OUT. .

*a sheep pen or sheepfold [fold] in bible times was a walled enclosure, used to keep the sheep together and protected. Not to be confused with a "flock" which is a group of sheep.

What would that "[sheep] pen/fold represent and who was the "doorman"? We know from Jesus words he had been sent to minister only to the Israelites, so it seems logical the PEN /fold represented that which held them together and protected them spiritually, namely the Mosaic Law covenant (compare Gal 3:24). John the Baptist as the "doorkeeper " rightly identified Jesus as the promised one and endorsed his ministry.

What does all this mean? It means that the "other sheep" could not be various "lost tribes of Israel" because all the tribes of Israel could be found (regardless of their physical location) in the same "pen" ie under the temple based arrangement of worship based on the Mosaic Law.


THIS FOLD

If Jesus leads his "Jewish sheep" out of the "old" Mosaic temple based arrangement: where does he take them ? Evidently he doesn't just wander about in the fields he puts them in another (new) Pen (read Mark 2:22). Notice Jesus' words

JOHN 10:16

"I have other sheep not of this fold, those too I must bring in ...

Unless people are going to suggest Jesus lead his sheep out of the Jewish arrangement then lead them right back into it, this second fold /pen is a new (covenant) arrangement for worship.

But wouldn't that new arrangement be one exclusively for Jews since Jesus admitted his ministry was supposed to be for his Jewish brethren? Absolutely not! Although Jesus laid the foundation by preaching only to his fellow Jews, the "new pen" was built and operational only after his death and resurrection. And at that point (ie when the door opened) Jesus sent his followers to all nations and all people (compare Math 28:19, 20). This was supported not only from Jesus words to the gentile individuals that put faith in him but was evident, as Peter witnessed when Gentile converts were anointed with holy spirit and adopted as spirit sons starting with Cornelius ( compare Mat 8:22; Acts 10:47). So although the very first individuals to enter the pen (sheep fold) were indeed of Jewish origin, the pen(contrary to the temple based arrangement from which Jesus lead his "Jewish" sheep) was at no time was constructed for Jews alone. All ethnicities had their place in this fold/pen based on his (Jesus) own ransom sacrifice.


NOT OF THIS FOLD


Now let's look, REALLY look at what Jesus said; and what he did not say. Notice Jesus did not say .... "I have other sheep that have not arrived yet", he didn't say "I have other sheep that are not in this fold" he said "I have other sheep that are not OF this fold" . In other words, I have other sheep that don't BELONG in this fold". Since the gentile Christians did belong, just as legitimately as Jewish Christian in the "fold"/pen , these "other sheep" must differ in some other way.


But didn't Jesus say he would bring them into the ONE FOLD ? No he did not. At no point did he say he would put the other sheep into the fold he said "those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd" Since Jesus has just said the "other sheep" are not OF this fold, if he is bringing them in it must be into something else. The implication being they would all be united in worship of the true God in a global arrangement for worship but no matter how hard you look you cannot see the words "I will bring them into the pen"... he could have said "one pen, one flock" but he didn't he said "One shepherd, one flock".



CONCLUSION: Jesus words exclude the possibility that the other sheep were in fact gentiles as the calling to become spirit anointed born again Christians went out to all ethnicities. The "other sheep" later to arrive would not belong within this fold although they would enjoy perfect unity with those of the initial calling.






JEHOVAHS WITNESS


RELATED POSTS

Does the bible support the idea of two different groups of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1022933#p1022933

Do different hopes or destinies make different "types" of Christians?
viewtopic.php?p=1005079#p1005079

How can two distinct groups be united ?
viewtopic.php?p=1120021#p1120021

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE LITTLE FLOCK , THE OTHER SHEEP and ... THE KINGDOM OF GOD

[MissKate13]

There are not two classes of Christians found in Scripture. All true followers of Christ are born again believers anointed by the Holy Spirit. Both “this fold” and “other sheep” are one flock IN CHRIST. They are not two separate groups of Christians as some teach as some sects teach.

Not one Christian in the early church ever taught two separate destinations for Christians, two hopes, nor did anyone in subsequent church history. Watchtower didn’t teach in in the first fifty years of its history.

Anyone who is familiar with JW history knows that Rutherford had a problem with sticking with his 144,000 elect doctrine. What would happen to those witnesses who weren’t a part of the 144,000?

JW publications admit that the development of the doctrine of the “great crowd” was influenced by the number of members in the organisation at the time.

“Their being identified in 1935 as the great crowd of other sheep was an indication that the choosing of the 144,000 was then about complete.“ (Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand! 1988, p125)

“At that time, in 1935, attention began to be called to another class of sheeplike disciples of Jesus.” “The remnant of the “little flock” now came under the obligation of starting off the gathering of this “great crowd” of the “other sheep.” (Luke 12:32) This was because the number of discreet virgins needed to complete Jesus’ bride had now been filled. “ (Emphasis added)

By introducing and elaborating upon his “two hopes” teaching, Rutherford successfully ensured the authority of leadership, loyalty of members and subsequent growth of the JW organization. Rutherford ensured that the JWs would follow him.

Watchtower is all about control! When the possibility of losing power seems to be on the horizon, along come “new light.” And the good people fall for it.

[2timothy316]

There are not two classes of Christian found in Scripture. Both “this fold” and “other sheep” are one flock. They are not divided as some sects teach.

The very terms 'this' and 'other' automatically mean more than one type. Who says there can't be two types in one fold. We are all sheep. In the Jehovah's Witness religion the little flock and other sheep are not divided into sects. We worship together and work together closely. If the floor needs to be swept in the Kingdom Hall an anointed person has just as much responsibility to sweep it up as an other sheep does. We go door to door in service with them. The only position that someone with the Earthly hope shouldn't fill would be a Governing Body position or any FDS position that dispenses spiritual food as that would not be scripturally sound as stated at Luke 12:42 and Matt 24:45. Every other job the little flock and other sheep share together.

[MissKate13]

There are not two classes of Christian found in Scripture. Both “this fold” and “other sheep” are one flock. They are not divided as some sects teach.

The very terms 'this' and 'other' automatically mean more than one type. Who says there can't be two types in one fold. In the Jehovah's Witness religion the little flock and other sheep are not divided into sects. We worship together and work together closely. If the floor needs to be swept in the Kingdom Hall an anointed person has just as much responsibility to sweep it up as an other sheep does. We go door to door in service with them. The only position that someone with the Earthly hope shouldn't fill would be a Governing Body position or any FDS position that dispenses spiritual food as that would not be scripturally sound as stated at Luke 12:42 and Matt 24:45. Every other job the little flock and other sheep share together.

The issue isn’t “this fold” and “other sheep” being two groups. They obviously were, but Jesus brought them together into ONE FLOCK. The issue is Watchtower’s teaching that there are two classes of Christians where one rules over the other. This doctrine was not taught in the first century church, nor was it ever taught in subsequent church history.

[2timothy316]

There are not two classes of Christian found in Scripture. Both “this fold” and “other sheep” are one flock. They are not divided as some sects teach.

The very terms 'this' and 'other' automatically mean more than one type. Who says there can't be two types in one fold. In the Jehovah's Witness religion the little flock and other sheep are not divided into sects. We worship together and work together closely. If the floor needs to be swept in the Kingdom Hall an anointed person has just as much responsibility to sweep it up as an other sheep does. We go door to door in service with them. The only position that someone with the Earthly hope shouldn't fill would be a Governing Body position or any FDS position that dispenses spiritual food as that would not be scripturally sound as stated at Luke 12:42 and Matt 24:45. Every other job the little flock and other sheep share together.

The issue isn’t “this fold” and “other sheep” being two groups. They obviously were, but Jesus brought them together into ONE FLOCK. The issue is Watchtower’s teaching that there are two classes of Christians where one rules over the other. This doctrine was not taught in the first century church, nor was it ever taught in subsequent church history.

I'm not disputing that they are not one flock and the little flock doesn't rule over the other sheep yet. This will not happen until the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

And it was taught in the first century except they were not looking the other sheep yet and it wasn't time to bring in the other sheep into the one fold. That wouldn't come for another 1900 years. The mystery about the other sheep and Great Crowd wasn't understood until the 20th century.

BTW Im not look to debate this with so I don't really care what you think of our believes but I will correct you about what you think our beliefs are. The Watchtower is the name of a magazine, the Watchtower Bible Tract Society is the legal name of our printing company. and rules over nothing. During the 1000 year reign I doubt there will be an entity called Watchtower as the term comes from being on the Watch for the coming of God's Kingdom. When Jesus comes and is ruling there will be nothing to watch for. There is no Jehovah Witness on earth that rules over another. Jesus specifically said NOT to do that. Mark 10:42-44