Size of a Religion - or Cult

[boatsnguitars]

I have to say, this was the most remarkable, and unintentionally hillarious posts I have read in a long time.

Many religions and denominations take pride, even boast of how large their followers are in numbers and the rate at which they are growing. But the thread of truth that runs throughout the whole of the scriptures is that God has always worked through the minority and never through the majority. This teaches us that when people look at their large numbers and equate that with their reasoning of God working through them, well the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible which teach this truth, but my favorite is regarding the 400 prophets of Israel who were called to inquire of God whether king Ahab should go into battle and obtain victory or not. And since these 400 prophets were prophets of Israel, and Israel was recognized as the people of God, then surely these 400 prophets were true prophets of God, right? Especially since they all came to the same conclusion and spoke with one voice unto the king saying that God would surely give this king victory. Yet one one man is called to see what God had to say and he told the king that the king would die in battle and that these 400 prophets were false prophets.

But what's more, is that these 400 prophets truly believed that they were true children of God and that the one lone prophet wasn't. This is a tremendous warning to those who find comfort and assurance in the size of their religious group who claim the name of God. Anyone can read this account in 1 Kings 22.

What do you think about God always working through the minority? What do you think about those groups who firmly believe they are the people of God but are in fact not?

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I actually agree with what you’ve written.

Imho, many denominations are in for a rude awakening.

Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.

It's why I think religion damages the brain. Some people actually think this is a justification of why their beliefs may be true! It's patently absurd!

These people vote, possibly raise and teach our children, etc.

No doubt this was preceded by someone from a mega church, or the RCC saying that their sect was more popular - so, instead of simply agreeing, they've decided to use it as an Apologetic.

Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.

[TRANSPONDER]

"The minority is always right" (Ibsen, an enemy of the people). I have to sympathise with the minority. My Pet Theory is definitely a minority view, and some may have seen me raise my eyebrows at how much the mainstream Bible experts seem to have missed. Even the Skeptical ones.

But religion's a bit different. There are two approaches: either being right with God requires you get everything right, particularly Biblical exegesis, interpretation and understanding or not. And I watch with amusement as well as amazement as the minority who have the True Understanding damn each other for being in darkness and not Real Christians, because they disagree. To me, cult and religion are as much a matter of authority as much as size. apart from that, the mental method is the same, and I equate theist and cult -think with alternative history and science thinking.

Of course, meanings before words. I do not see anyone defined by their name, as they may use the term in a particular way. Let them say what their ideas are and they may mention in passing the size of the belief - system they belong to, and as Popeye said, "A rose by any other name would smell just as much."

So let them battle about which translation of the Bible is valid, which bits are true and which metaphorical and the meaning of 'Aion' and welcome. Since I doubt the whole boiling, it doesn't concern me, much. What does is why God makes it so difficult. Why, when writing innate Righteousness (and capacity for naughties, it seems) on our hearts, He didn't give us at least a proper understanding of the Bible so there is no worry that they might have the wrong belief. Not that it ever bothers them which is why I think they believe that being a Christian apologist (bornagain or not) enabled God to download Truth into their heads, which is why they are sure that the other fellow is mistaken and thus God is not messaging Truth to him (or her) and thus they are not Real Christians. As well of course as knowing that Facts and even the Bible is wrong if it doesn't fit what they think.

But why would God do that? Why not get everyone on the same page, worldwide, not just in Christian countries?

Aside the atheist answer, suppose God doesn't mind about doctrine, shibboleths and whether one eats fish on Friday or not. If you believe in Jesus, you are a Christian and denominations don't matter. That ought to be Good News for global Christianity, but I suspect it ain't and the Elephant in the Room is religious tribalism.

Dudes and dudesses; you're going to need a bigger room, as there is a whole herd approaching. If God doesn't mind which Christian denomination you belong to, why doesn't He make sure at least that everyone had the Christian god (and the Bible) given unto them? Is it possible that it actually doesn't matter which religion you have so long as you have one?

[1213]

Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.
...
Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.

I think there is a good point and warning. In Finland we have this saying, often used by atheists when they argue that popularity of Christianity is no good argument for it, "a million flies can't be wrong, shit is good", which means obviously that it really doesn't matter how many voices say something, they can be all wrong. It would be good to found beliefs on something else than to majority opinion. Or what do you think, should you be a Christian just because a lot of people are?

[TRANSPONDER]

Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.
...
Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.

I think there is a good point and warning. In Finland we have this saying, often used by atheists when they argue that popularity of Christianity is no good argument for it, "a million flies can't be wrong, shit is good", which means obviously that it really doesn't matter how many voices say something, they can be all wrong. It would be good to found beliefs on something else than to majority opinion. Or what do you think, should you be a Christian just because a lot of people are?

Logically not. Practically yes, especially if it could threaten your job, friends and family if you wren't. A couple of online debates ago, I saw a point about reasons to believe. Faith vs reason. It was Lane - Craig doing the case for Faith, and the one that it feels great to believe is fair enough. Why not go though life feeling happy to believe? No reason. But to an atheists, that is no reason at all. To the atheists, free reasoning is a bigger gift than belief in any god, religion or cult. I want to know, and I hate to be fooled and lied to. And I think curiosity and wanting to satisfy it is the objective evolved basis of what is the meaning of Life. The Big questions of the universe. Count'em; there are 42.

Lane - Craig of course. could not understand that it is a joy and pleasure to be atheist. Believers do not. The epiphany of release from delusion. The freedom from the pressure from Dogma, Authority and threat of punishment and fear of death (if it isn't too nasty), give or take Hell threat. Being able to freely enquire, speculate and evaluate without Divine command "Thou shalt not credit what conflicts with Bible". The pleasure if intellectual honesty free from the need to fiddle any and all evidence into agreeing with the Faith. I can watch with interest as JWT rips up everything we thought we knew about Cosmic origins and the universe, and not feel my Faith is collapsing, though YE Creationists think we must, because (i think) their Belief System is based on Faith that God is pouring Facts into their heads, and they cannot ever admit to being seriously wrong, even when it is proven. I sacrifice a local cat every week to our lady Athe, that i am not subject to Theist or cult -think.

The other point was evidence and Faith. Obviously, one can do the Gospel story and resurrection on evidence. The Bible and any outside mention of it. Is it good enough? One doesn't need Faith when one believes the Resurrection on evidence. But it doesn't matter as the promises from the resurrection - those require Faith. Lane - Craig, for all his long words and certificates, thinks very badly, but that's down to theist - think. And like everyone from Plantinga to Strobel, by way of David Woods, they know nothing of atheists as they have never been one. Not a "Thinking" atheist, I mean. We are all tabula rasa (scrubbed table) atheists born until we are spoonfed our tribal religion, and we do not hear the questions and doubts, other than as one sided dismissal by Theists who do not know and do not want to know.

[JehovahsWitness]

The size if a religion isn't necessarily indicative it is true, but look at human history indicates that truth (in whatever catagory of human endeavor ) has more often than not, been initially advocated by the lone visionary going against the grain of contempory thought.

Whether it is in science, innovation, whether its the freedom fighter or the spiritual visionary... the lone individual and his raggedy band of oddballs and reject have always had to swim against the tide until the masses realize they were right all along and join them. We all like to think we would have been the one guy that didn't "Heil Hitler" in 1930s germany, but human nature being what it is, most people just go with the majority, whether through intellectual laziness or ignorance or both. The pioneers, rebels and true geniuses are always in the minority; albeit along with the kooks, the delusional and the clinically insane. The distinction between the two groups are that the former are always ultimately vindicated (usually long after they are dead) because their position was actually grounded in truth.

As for Christianity, Jesus indicated TRUE Christianity would be identifiable as an organised religion but not that it would be a proportionally large one. So biblically , when looking for the true religion, step one would be to look for a "David" (effective but small) not a "Goliath (the large, orthodox, and accepted by polite society).

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide



JW


RELATED POSTS

Does God always work through a minority?
viewtopic.php?p=1131767#p1131767


FURTHER READING : World Report of Jehovah’s Witnesses
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/worldwide/

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS , RELIGIOUS TRUTH and ... JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

[Tcg]

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide

Rastas got you beat by a long shot. There's only about 1 million of them. Obviously if one is to use your method of determining a true religion, Rastas qualify and JWs don't.



Rastafari often claim the flag of the Ethiopian Royal Standard as was used during Haile Selassie's reign. It combines the conquering lion of Judah, symbol of the Ethiopian monarchy, with green, gold, and red.



Two Rastafari street vendors in Zeerust, South Africa; they are wearing and selling items that display their commitment to the religion



Haile Selassie, the Emperor of Ethiopia between 1930 and 1974. He is of central importance to Rastas, many of whom regard him as the Second Coming of Jesus and thus God incarnate in human form.



A flowering cannabis plant; the smoking of which is considered a Biblically sanctioned sacrament by Rastas

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari#Organisation>


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide

Rastas got you beat by a long shot. ...

The size if a religion isn't necessarily indicative it is true...

[TRANSPONDER]

The size if a religion isn't necessarily indicative it is true, but look at human history indicates that truth (in whatever catagory of human endeavor ) has more often than not, been initially advocated by the lone visionary going against the grain of contempory thought.

Whether it is in science, innovation, whether its the freedom fighter or the spiritual visionary... the lone individual and his raggedy band of oddballs and reject have always had to swim against the tide until the masses realize they were right all along and join them. We all like to think we would have been the one guy that didn't "Heil Hitler" in 1930s germany, but human nature being what it is, most people just go with the majority, whether through intellectual laziness or ignorance or both. The pioneers, rebels and true geniuses are always in the minority; albeit along with the kooks, the delusional and the clinically insane. The distinction between the two groups are that the former are always ultimately vindicated (usually long after they are dead) because their position was actually grounded in truth.

As for Christianity, Jesus indicated TRUE Christianity would be identifiable as an organised religion but not that it would be a proportionally large one. So biblically , when looking for the true religion, step one would be to look for a "David" (effective but small) not a "Goliath (the large, orthodox, and accepted by polite society).

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide



JW


RELATED POSTS

Does God always work through a minority?
viewtopic.php?p=1131767#p1131767


FURTHER READING : World Report of Jehovah’s Witnesses
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/worldwide/

To read more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS , RELIGIOUS TRUTH and ... JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

I had to thank you for the post even though it became evident that it wan't about what turns out to be true or at least influential, like one person's research (Darwin,or Newton) or one person's leadership (Muhammad, for instance) but about Interpreting (look out for "") the parameters to point to a smallish Christian group that was not so large as to be merely human preference nor small enough to be individual mistake, but a small select group with the Truth of Jesus. That is, the one he belongs to.

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide

Rastas got you beat by a long shot. ...

The size if a religion isn't necessarily indicative it is true...

Nor is the small selectiveness of it. Mind, if I had a gun pointed to my head and they said "JW or Rasta, you have to join one or the other" I thinks I'd eventually decide "...I think you'd better just pull the trigger".

[Tcg]

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide

Rastas got you beat by a long shot. ...

The size if a religion isn't necessarily indicative it is true...

You also stated this, "So biblically , when looking for the true religion, step one would be to look for a "David" (effective but small) not a "Goliath (the large, orthodox, and accepted by polite society)." So by your own admission, JWism loses to Ratas at step one. JWs are now out of the running, according to you. Rastas aren't. Plus, I imagine they have better weed which is plus.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

There are only about 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide

Rastas got you beat by a long shot. ...

The size if a religion isn't necessarily indicative it is true...

You also stated this, "So biblically , when looking for the true religion, step one would be to look for a "David" (effective but small) not a "Goliath (the large, orthodox, and accepted by polite society)." So by your own admission, JWism loses to Ratas at step one. JWs are now out of the running, according to you. Rastas aren't. ...


Tcg

I didn't just say small, I said {quote} "effective* but small" and likened it to David (the biblical character that faced a giant and came off victorious). (* "Effective" by biblical standards of course) Would you like me to outline using scripture what biblical "efficacy" I referred to?

Still If you want to focus on a single word in my post, and take it out of the context of both the sentence and the general point I was making, misrepresenting my point as if I spoke about SIZE in isolation .... then point taken. Yes, you are correct, the Rasta Ferians are a smaller religion than the religion of Jehovahs Witnesses. Indeed if finding Christian truth is as simple as finding the smallest religion, then I'm sure Satanist would be amongst the forerunners , but I feel confident you are not attempting to argue from such an illogical dichotomy. And, given the parameters I presented ...neither am I.