GEHENNA, a place of fiery torture?

[onewithhim]

Jesus warned his disciples against suffering the judgment of Gehenna. Was he referring to a burning hell of everlasting torture? (Matthew 5:22)

The Greek word Ge'en na corresponds to the Hebrew geh veneh-Hin nom,---Valley of the sons of Hinnom. It became a garbage dump for Jerusalem, serving as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish, and anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes.

Many Bible translators haven rendered Ge' en na as "hell." (Matthew 5:22, KJV) Why is this? (Since Gehenna and hell are two different things.) Because they associated the pagan-inspired notion of an afterlife of fiery judgment for the wicked with the physical fire in the valley outside Jerusalem. Jesus, though, did not associate Gehenna with torture. He knew that the thought of burning people alive is repugnant to Jehovah. He referred to the use made of Gehenna in the days of the prophet Jeremiah. God said: "They have built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart." Burning people was not something that God can countenance, and He can't to this day. A good point is that the idea of torture for the dead conflicts with God's loving personality as well as with the Bible's clear teaching that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)

Jesus used the term "Gehenna" to symbolize the utter destruction that would come from God's judgment on the wicked. So...."Gehenna" means, similarly, the lake of fire in Revelation. Both symbolize eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection. (Luke 12:4,5; Revelation 20:14,15.

Doesn't this sound more merciful than people being tortured in a never-ending fire? The fire symbolizes complete annihilation, just like what the fires in Gehenna did to trash and bodies of criminals.

[JehovahsWitness]

IF ALL THREATS EVENTUALLY ARE REMOVED WHY DOES THE NEW JERUSALEM HAVE WALLS AND GATES?

Remember the holy city [New Jerusalem] is not a literal city but a system of government. The foundation stones, walls, gates are all symbolic. The Gates for example represents restricted entry limited to chosen and approved spirit anointed Christians. Its walls represent it is spiritually secure, protected from any threat* to its continuation. Firther, WALLS are not uniquely indicative of an outside threat, indeed walls are constructed to indicate the limits of an assigned location. Did Jesus not refer to his Father's house? Did that house have no walls? (A house without walls and a roof is usually called ... a field) those in the city give up their earthly life. They are not kept prisoners but willingly and happily stay with the limits (walls) of their new heavenly abode.

[*] Regarding potential THREATS see above.


CONCLUSION The New Jerusalem is presented as a resplendent city strong, secure and staggeringly beautiful. When all potential threats* are eventually removed it is not demolished but rather handed over to the God of all eternity for both those living with him and those living under his to rule to enjoy life forever.

[boatsnguitars]

The New Jerusalem is presented as a resplendent city strong, secure and staggeringly beautiful.

Here it is:

[theophile]

From Revelation 19:
"20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf... The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Did the verse say they remained alive while they were IN the Lake of fire? Did the verse say they got out of the lake of fire alive? To throw something is to release it in a given direction, so all we know from the verse is Jesus (the strong angel) did not kill them first, he threw the Prophet, the beast and eventually Satan himself in alive; that's not to say they survived when they hit the flames!

theophile wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:11 am

From Revelation 20: 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."[/i]

A "tormenter" in bible times was just an alternative name for a "jailer" . This verse means that Satan' s non-existence would be permanent.

I agree that being thrown alive into Gehenna doesn't mean they stay alive once there. But Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are all to experience eternal torment per Revelation 20:10 and therefore must still exist on some level if we take the simplest, most straightforward interpretation of the text.

Your interpretation of 'tormented' as 'jailed' isn't necessarily wrong, it's just more stretched (i.e., I don't see it implied in the original Greek). It also doesn't quite hold up. Since if Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are all completely annihilated, then why do they need a jailer? Having a jailer implies having someone / something that needs to be watched and kept confined... So unless there's a chance that Satan, etc., could escape from nothingness or whatever state they are in, then it would be misleading for the author to describe them as 'jailed'... A much clearer word choice could have easily been used, if what you're saying is true.

That said, do you think Satan could re-emerge?... I ask because I can't shut out that possibility myself, although I know full-well your answer will be 'absolutely not!'.

DOES THE BIBLE INDICATE THAT THERE WILL BE A DESIGNATED AREA FOR THE WICKED TO CONTINUE EXISTING FOR ALL ETERNITY?

Absolutely not!

PSALM 37 verse 10, 11 tells us ....

Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

The bible promises that ultimately the wicked will not merely be tranfersed, deported, displaced or isolated...it says they will be removed from the planet

PROVERBS 2:21, 22

For only the upright will reside in the earth and the blameless will remain in it. As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, and the treacherous will be torn away from it.

Will they be kept alive in some non disclosed area ? No, the bible is clear the wicked are to be destroyed as in annihilated, cut of from all existence ....

PSALM 73:27 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Those far from You will certainly perish; You destroy all who are unfaithful to You

CONCLUSION The bible promises a new heavens and a new earth in which {quote} "righteousness is to dwell" There will be no place in the physical universe, or anywhere in the spiritual realm for the wicked to continue to exist (2 Peter 3:13).

Three points.

1. Along the lines of where I was going above, even if all wickedness is eradicated, this doesn't mean the possibility for wickedness is eradicated. This may be the crux of our difference. I can uphold both these passages you cite and the eradication of evil from the earth as well as the possibility of its re-emergence -- hence a much stronger reason why the city of God has walls and guards, and speaks of impurity not being allowed to enter but only the glory of the nations... (The argument against, of course, being that Satan will be tormented / jailed "forever", which clamps down this possibility...)

2. The nations, and the remnant left behind after Satan and all its minions are destroyed. Revelation implies their continued existence outside the city by speaking to their future glory entering into the city. These ones may not be wicked when all the wicked ones are destroyed -- hence they remain -- but they are also not yet included in the city of God... They are almost a lukewarm or neutral population that needs to be accounted for...

3. Similarly, those resurrected during the judgment of the dead. i.e., the second round of resurrection.

On these ones in 2 and 3, would you deny their existence? Would you say they are in fact good people who have just yet to be admitted to the city of God? No impurity whatsoever? If they do exist and are pure, are they not capable of future impurity that needs to be guarded against? ...

But do not the closing words in Revelation indicate there will always be "dogs" and unclean individuals alive somewhere?

No. Notice what timeframe when God speaks from at Revelation 22 verse 12* “Look! I am coming quickly"..., so the closing words of the bible book of Revelation are not uttered from the perspective of Gods purpose already accomplished but rather they are a call to action BEFORE God takes action.

* The book of Revelation does not present events in strictly chronological order.

Indeed notice what the angel says just before God speaks in verse 12 "“He also tells me: ‘Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near. He that is doing unrighteousness, let him do unrighteousness still; and let the filthy one be made filthy still; but let the righteous one do righteousness still, and let the holy one be made holy still.’”​—Revelation 22:10, 11.

So for these closing words we are hearing comments about a time when both the wicked and the righteous are being invited to make their choices prior to God's final judgements. Carry on with filthy behaviour and face eternal annihilation (non-existence) or enter into God's blessing by acting righteously.

I get what you're saying, and there is definitely a call to action here. But the verse in question (Revelation 22:14-15) is very specific. It assumes that the heavenly city has already descended, and so we should take that as context when it speaks of the 'dogs' being outside, should we not?

Put otherwise, while Revelation is prophetic, and is written from the perspective of the before-time and jumps back and forth, there is still a chronology to the sequence of events prophesied, is there not? i.e., picking up from Revelation 20:7, first Satan's minions are destroyed and Satan is cast into Gehenna. Then the dead are judged and similarly cast into Gehenna along with death and Hades (presumably those whose names are in the book of life are resurrected at this point although this isn't explicit). Then and only then does the city of God descend from heaven and have gates that could admit new citizens or keep impure ones out...

Which means, Revelation 22:14-15, and it's implication that the dogs are outside the city, is after all the dogs have apparently already been destroyed... Hence they can't all be destroyed by this point, and I go back to my focus on the remnant of the nations, or those who are resurrected as part of the judgment of the dead but who are also lukewarm, for lack of a better term, and hold within themselves the possibility of wickedness / sin.

***

To summarize all that, I think there are 3 points of difference or clarification needed.

1. Even if the wicked are eradicated, is there not still a possibility for wickedness? If not, how is this possibility destroyed in your view?
2. What of the living remnant of the nations who were not destroyed by God alongside Satan, nor judged by God since only the dead were judged in Revelation? Do these not exist in your view? Are they automatically assumed pure because they weren't destroyed with Satan's minions?
3. Similar to 2, what of those resurrected as part of the judgment of the dead? Are these also assumed pure and ready to enter the city in glory? Even though they didn't make the cut for the first round of resurrection?

Those are the 3 things that, frankly, aren't explicitly handled in Revelation and throw kinks in the works of your interpretation. They make me think there is still a population outside the heavenly city at the end that could bring great glory into the city, but also the ever-present risk of impurity / sin...

[JehovahsWitness]

Your interpretation of 'tormented' as 'jailed' isn't necessarily wrong, it's just more stretched (i.e., I don't see it implied in the original Greek).

TORMENTED

The Greek word John wrote was (Basanisteos) and is related to th "basanistes". This is noun translated "torturer", "tormentor" or "JAILER". It is the same word (Basanistes) that is translated "Jailer" in Matthew 18:34 which speaks about a man thrown in jail, it reads:

MATTEHEW 18:34

"And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers [Basanistes], until he should pay all his debt" -- English Standard Version (2001)

The word jailor became closely associated witb torture because legitimately or not , many jailors did indeed torture their detainees. But the word doesn't exclusivey refer to torture or torment but can refer to being confined or kept or restricted from movement (denied freedom). Interestingly British slang for a prison guard is "screw" ; there are various theories as to it origin but they are all mostly related to hard labour, ill treatment or confinement methods (chains)]


WHY WOULD THAT WHICH DOES NOT EXIST NEED A "JAILOR" ?

Remember, Revelation is a symbolic book, using images, objects and people to convey a message. Other bible writers also use Symbolic language which is not true in a literal sense but is used to convey a thought or message. For example ...

• King David spoke about the "ropes" of death, but does death need rope?

• Paul spoke about the sting of death, but does have stingers?

Both of these passages were using SYMBOLIC language to tell us something about the nature or effect of death. The bible is clear, the dead can return to life; death for those that cease to exist but are not forgotten by God is not permanent. How then, can the author of REVELATION convey the idea that there is a type of non-existence from which there can never be and return?

• John recorded the jailing [Basanistes] of those in the " lake of fire", is a fitting SYMBOL/IMAGE that this type of death is a condition from which one can never return

HOW CAN WE KNOW FOR SURE THIS IS THE CORRECT UNDERSTANDING ?

Because both death and hell [hades] are also thrown into the make of fire. Obviously if HELL is thrown into the lake of fire it cannot be literaly burnt or be made to feel pain , but it can PERMANENTLY cease to exist.






TORMENTED" (scroll down)
http://www.jehovah.to/exe/general/hell.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200304230916 ... l/hell.htm

Further reading
http://nephesh-chaiyah.blogspot.com/200 ... -fire.html

[JehovahsWitness]

#QUESTIONS: How does "the smoke of their torment" ascends forever and ever"?

Keeping in mind that Revelation is a symbolic book, it should be noted that it is not the" torment" that is said to continue forever (nor the FIRE that is said to continue forever) but the "SMOKE" continues forever and ever. Where does the smoke come from? Revelation curiously says the smoke comes (not from the fire) but from the torment. Obviously torment doesn't literally produce smoke, so what does the "smoke from the torment" mean?

Smoke is evidence that a fire is or HAS BEEN burning. Anyone that remembers the pictures from Ground Zero, after the September 11th terrorist attacks will recognise that smoke continues to rise as a testimony of a fire long after the actual fire itself has been extinguished.

Usually of course, after some days or months the smoke ceases to rise, but in a symbolic way eternal smoke from the torment is an everlasting testimony of an act of Divine destruction.


Further reading
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm
http://www.facethefacts.co.za/?p=81


RELATED POSTS

Does anyone get out of HELL (sheol)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p971002

Is FIRE used figuratively to represent the literal torture of humans after they die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p970945

Revelation 1:18, 6:8, Revelation 20:13, & 14 : What does the book of Revelation teach us about "HELL" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p971239

REV14:9 /20:10 What is the "lake of fire"/"the second death"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p337866

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GEHENNA , HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[JehovahsWitness]

* The book of Revelation does not present events in strictly chronological order.

I get what you're saying, .. Revelation is prophetic,... and jumps back and forth, there is still a chronology to the sequence of events prophesied, is there not? ...

Yes but I disagree with the chronology you present. Since you admit that the entire book "jumps back and forth" the only way to know where we are chronologically at any given point is to understand what is being spoken of and how each event relates to another, not where they appear on the page.


REVELATION 21 verses 1 -4 is clearly a vision seen by the Apostle John of a future event namely the marriage of the Lamb along with the promise of what that will mean for mankind. John is being shown the future in the first century, of the "end game" but his comments are for all faithful servants living from his day to the present. Notice ...

And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

What is this verse saying... is it not an instruction to John, ( living in the first century) to record the promises [that have not met happened] along with a guarantee they will certainly happen in the future ? So unless you are suggesting that all human suffering and death itself was eliminated in John's day, these words are written from the perspective of before the good things have actually happen. He that says "before these good things happen" says "while the bad things are still an issue"

VERSE 6 , 7

To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

So we are still encouraging the faithful to persevere so they can be rewarded. What do they have to persevere?Obviously encouragement to conquer is only valuable while the fight is still on. In chapter 20 we saw the complete destruction of Satan in the lake of fire. But in 21 we see the faithful being told to endure headship so they can get their reward. So obviously the commentary on the vision are for those living BEFORE it happens.

CONCLUSION Revelation 21 is a beautiful vision of the final reward for the faithful along with a warning of what will happen to those that fail to remain faithful (verse 8). This pattern of promise and warning is repeated several times throughout Revelation including the in the last vision of the river of life. (Rev 22: 12-15) . It should be taken as a parenthetical commentary and not be mistaken as a chronological indicator.

[onewithhim]

* The book of Revelation does not present events in strictly chronological order.

I get what you're saying, .. Revelation is prophetic,... and jumps back and forth, there is still a chronology to the sequence of events prophesied, is there not? ...

Yes but I disagree with the chronology you present. Since you admit that the entire book "jumps back and forth" the only way to know where we are chronologically at any given point is to understand what is being spoken of and how each event relates to another, not where they appear on the page.


REVELATION 21 verses 1 -4 is clearly a vision seen by the Apostle John of a future event namely the marriage of the Lamb along with the promise of what that will mean for mankind. John is being shown the future in the first century, of the "end game" but his comments are for all faithful servants living from his day to the present. Notice ...

And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

What is this verse saying... is it not an instruction to John, ( living in the first century) to record the promises [that have not met happened] along with a guarantee they will certainly happen in the future ? So unless you are suggesting that all human suffering and death itself was eliminated in John's day, these words are written from the perspective of before the good things have actually happen. He that says "before these good things happen" says "while the bad things are still an issue"

VERSE 6 , 7

To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

So we are still encouraging the faithful to persevere so they can be rewarded. What do they have to persevere?Obviously encouragement to conquer is only valuable while the fight is still on. In chapter 20 we saw the complete destruction of Satan in the lake of fire. But in 21 we see the faithful being told to endure headship so they can get their reward. So obviously the commentary on the vision are for those living BEFORE it happens.

CONCLUSION Revelation 21 is a beautiful vision of the final reward for the faithful along with a warning of what will happen to those that fail to remain faithful (verse 8). This pattern of promise and warning is repeated several times throughout Revelation including the in the last vision of the river of life. (Rev 22: 12-15) . It should be taken as a parenthetical commentary and not be mistaken as a chronological indicator.

And "happy are those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it."(Revelation 1:3) The book of Revelation is a gift from God to make us happy. We know what will take place and what the outcome will be.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #27]

This thread is helpful for everyone who doesn't quite understand what "Gehenna" refers to. It should clear up any misunderstanding. Hopefully some people will give it a read.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #27]

This thread is helpful for everyone who doesn't quite understand what "Gehenna" refers to. It should clear up any misunderstanding. Hopefully some people will give it a read.

"Gehenna" is translated as "hell" in many Bibles. Gehenna and "hell" are two different things. The translators should leave the word "Gehenna" as it is, in the translations. It means everlasting destruction, whereas "hell" means the grave. Gehenna shouldn't be translated as "hell."