The kingdom of God.

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:40 am

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:21 pm

peacedove wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
peacedove wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:

So from all of that can you explain in a sentence or two (a) what is God's kingdom and (b) in what sense does it "come"?
No, I don't think it is possible to explain either in a sentence or two. But I'll try for a short summary.

The kingdom of God is the reign of God and the government of God.

Does Jesus play a role in this governement?
Sure, as founder, king, lawgiver, prophet and example.

Has Jesus been ruling in this government from the beginning of eternity before there was even an earth or any angels?

peacedove · Post by **peacedove** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:53 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
peacedove wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
peacedove wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:

So from all of that can you explain in a sentence or two (a) what is God's kingdom and (b) in what sense does it "come"?
No, I don't think it is possible to explain either in a sentence or two. But I'll try for a short summary.

The kingdom of God is the reign of God and the government of God.

Does Jesus play a role in this governement?
Sure, as founder, king, lawgiver, prophet and example.
Has Jesus been ruling in this government from the beginning of eternity before there was even an earth or any angels?

There is a story and the story has development and progress. Some members of the divine council abused their authority. Satan tricked man and had him ejected from the council (Gen 3). The sons of God corrupted the human race by interbreeding with women and producing giants (Gen 6). The giants were wiped out, but their unclean spirits survived and tormented mankind. Mankind came together to try to obtain divine power in an earthly city, so God divided the human race into 70 nations, one for each member of the divine council (Gen 11; Deut 32:8). From the nations, God chose Abraham and elected him and his seed according to promise to be YHWH's own special people, a nation that was not under any of the other gods. And through Abraham and his seed, all nations would be blessed, through the kingdom, God would bring all nations under him and restore humanity to the divine council. That restoration is the coming of the kingdom. With the coming of the kingdom, the unclean spirits were being cast out (Mat 12). With the repayment of the persecuting power, Satan's head was crushed (Gen 3:15; Rom 16:20). So it is missing a whole lot of elements to treat the kingdom as unbroken and continuous. YHWH rules the divine council even notwithstanding the sin of man and the temporary dominions of the other gods.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:11 pm

Checkpoint wrote:
onewithhim wrote: I don't think anyone has answered my question.....is anyone able? My question was: Why would Jesus teach us to pray for the Kingdom TO COME if it was already here?

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." (Matt.6:9,10, KJV)
That is a fair question, which I did touch on in a post a while ago, but that may well have been on another thread.

The question seems to be assuming the nature of the kingdom Jesus was then including in a model prayer for believers.

So, we pray as believers, we pray in view of what Jesus has done, we pray in recognition that he now has "all authority", and we pray in the light of his command to "go therefore and make disciples".

Thus we pray for all sorts of situations of others we are in contact with, as well as for our own and for other believers.

We pray for God's will to be done, that His kingdom rule will prevail in individual lives.

When God answers, the kingdom does come, as people experience what Paul wrote about.

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

When we pray for the Kingdom, we pray that the Kingdom rule will prevail in all peoples' lives throughout the world, not only individually but collectively, with the entire planet in mind. The Kingdom will bring order and healing back to every nook and cranny of the planet, including the very structure of governance.

The Kingdom is not just some spiritual experience by the individual. It is a real government that will get rid of man's pathetic governmental set-ups and institute truly beneficial rule for mankind. I find that the following scriptures are routinely ignored by most people:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder....Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth even for ever." (Isaiah 9:6,7, KJV)

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (Daniel 2:44, KJV)

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onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:15 pm

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 83 by Checkpoint]

"We pray for God's will to be done, that His kingdom rule will prevail in individual lives.

When God answers, the kingdom does come, as people experience what Paul wrote about.

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Yes, not one off but continuously flowing to all peoples/generations.

In case you haven't noticed, it hasn't come yet, and it's quite obvious from everything we see happening in the news. If you are content with the way this system of things is being run, then you will not recognize Christ's Kingdom when it does come and will be in complete astonishment as to what will be happening.

peacedove · Post by **peacedove** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:43 pm

onewithhim wrote:
Monta wrote: [Replying to post 83 by Checkpoint]

"We pray for God's will to be done, that His kingdom rule will prevail in individual lives.

When God answers, the kingdom does come, as people experience what Paul wrote about.

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Yes, not one off but continuously flowing to all peoples/generations.
In case you haven't noticed, it hasn't come yet, and it's quite obvious from everything we see happening in the news. If you are content with the way this system of things is being run, then you will not recognize Christ's Kingdom when it does come and will be in complete astonishment as to what will be happening.

So, your argument is that the coming of the kingdom will be 'obvious' to you from watching the news?

The problem with this approach is that the scriptures are filled with cases where the people don't see, they are blind, they see but they do not understand the significance of the events and so they miss the point. Paul told his persecuted, beleaguered readers they were 'more than conquerors' but, perhaps you would insist that they look around and that it was obvious that they were the ones being beaten, killed, persecuted and oppressed.

On balance, it is not a good argument to rely on 'looking around' or reading the news.

If you think the kingdom didn't come in power with the fall of Jerusalem, in Jesus's this generation, then I think you need to address the scriptures that teach that is did or was supposed to have.

For example, in Rev 11, we have the two witnesses, who testify in and against the Great City, where the Lord was slain. These are prophets, and their blood is shed by Jerusalem.

Then, the blood of the prophets and saints is repaid, the dead prophets are judged, and those who destroy the earth (land) are destroyed. (Rev 11:18). But this is when the kingdom comes:
We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth. (Rev 11:17-18)

According to Jesus, the blood of the prophets is avenged at the desolation of the house of Jerusalem in his generation (Mat 23:29-39). And when the signs of Jerusalem's fall were to appear, the kingdom would be near (Luke 21:31).

So, if you are going to say that the kingdom did not come when the blood of the prophets was avenged against Jerusalem, in Jesus's this generation, shouldn't you address the material that promised the coming of kingdom at that time?

How about the coming of the kingdom at the shattering of the power of the holy people in Dan 12 / Mat 13? Shouldn't you address that and try to show that it does not mean that the kingdom of God comes at the fall of Jerusalem?

I'm not sure why you seem to be ignoring the wealth of material in the scriptures teaching that the kingdom comes at the fall of Jerusalem.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:24 am

peacedove wrote: I'm not sure why you seem to be ignoring the wealth of material in the scriptures teaching that the kingdom comes at the fall of Jerusalem.

So you believe we are living "heaven on earth" as promised? The wicked have been destroyed have they? Wars have ceased? No one has died of hunger? Satan is disposed of and the meek have inherited the earth? Seriously, is that what you believe the inhabitants of the earth are experiencing now and have been experiencing since the first century?!

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" - JESUS CHRIST

PROVERBS 2:21
As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

PSALMS 37:11
But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

ISALAH 9: 6, 7
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end.

PSALMS 72:16
"There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow."

CONCLUSION: The bible associates many physical and spiritual blessings with Jesus' governmental rule. Although true Christians enjoy God ruling their hearts, and have many of the spiritual blessings because of being part of a worldwide brotherhood, we are NOT yet experiencing the physical blessings of a world free from suffering, deprivation, oppression and wickedness, it is for this reason bible believing Christians continue to pray "Thy Kingdom Come!".

What is God's Kingdom and what will it do? [video included]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 402#865402

Are we to understand the Kingdom to be a LITERAL government that will rule over this literal planet earth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 630#865630

What will those ruling in this government (The Kingdom) actually DO in the future?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 622#878622

What do Jesus' words "the kingdom is within you" mean?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 934#865934

Monta · Post by **Monta** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:58 am

[Replying to post 95 by peacedove]

"According to Jesus, the blood of the prophets is avenged at the desolation of the house of Jerusalem in his generation (Mat 23:29-39). And when the signs of Jerusalem's fall were to appear, the kingdom would be near (Luke 21:31). "

Thank you for pointing this out and other scriptures.
I have read it before but did not connect it in this way.

I can see that as the Psalmist said - 'goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life' i can see goodness in the world and were it not for the Lord keeping everything under control we would have destroyed ourselves by now.

I sympathise with JW, there is so much evil in the world. I believe the Lord God permits it in order for these evils to surface so they can be recognised by man and dealt with; that is his regeneration: 'to him that overcometh....'.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:17 am

[Replying to post 96 by JehovahsWitness]

Also our favorite scripture from Rev 21:4 has not come to pass yet either.

"And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

There are lots of tears now, lots of outcry, lots of mourning and death....

55.3 million die every year.
151,600 every day
6,316 every hour
105 people every min
1.75 people every second
http://www.ecology.com/birth-death-rates/

The kingdom is clearly not here.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:33 pm

peacedove wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Monta wrote: [Replying to post 83 by Checkpoint]

"We pray for God's will to be done, that His kingdom rule will prevail in individual lives.

When God answers, the kingdom does come, as people experience what Paul wrote about.

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Yes, not one off but continuously flowing to all peoples/generations.
In case you haven't noticed, it hasn't come yet, and it's quite obvious from everything we see happening in the news. If you are content with the way this system of things is being run, then you will not recognize Christ's Kingdom when it does come and will be in complete astonishment as to what will be happening.
So, your argument is that the coming of the kingdom will be 'obvious' to you from watching the news?

That is not exactly the point I was trying to make. YOU say that the Kingdom has been around for centuries. I am asking---how can this be when the world is in such a mess? The Kingdom of God is said to take away all problems! No more wars, no more suffering, no more death. How can this have already taken place when we see on the news that there is A LOT of suffering and death still on the earth?

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:31 pm

onewithhim wrote:
peacedove wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
Monta wrote: [Replying to post 83 by Checkpoint]

"We pray for God's will to be done, that His kingdom rule will prevail in individual lives.

When God answers, the kingdom does come, as people experience what Paul wrote about.

Romans 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Yes, not one off but continuously flowing to all peoples/generations.
In case you haven't noticed, it hasn't come yet, and it's quite obvious from everything we see happening in the news. If you are content with the way this system of things is being run, then you will not recognize Christ's Kingdom when it does come and will be in complete astonishment as to what will be happening.
So, your argument is that the coming of the kingdom will be 'obvious' to you from watching the news?
That is not exactly the point I was trying to make. YOU say that the Kingdom has been around for centuries. I am asking---how can this be when the world is in such a mess? The Kingdom of God is said to take away all problems! No more wars, no more suffering, no more death. How can this have already taken place when we see on the news that there is A LOT of suffering and death still on the earth?

That may be what you see as how the kingdom is described; that is:

"The Kingdom of God is said to take away all problems! No more wars, no more suffering, no more death".

That does not happen, you know, until Revelation 21; it is, rather, the future kingdom, which is the final result of his present reign as king.