Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logic?

[McCulloch]

I believe that the following facets of my faith can be demonstrated by logical deduction

2. The Bible is God's Word*

Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logical deduction?

[Clownboat]

More importantly, if the Bible contains foreknowledge that a human writer is incapable of producing alone, there must be a supernatural source or influence providing the information?

That's the brunt of the argument(s):
If the Bible possesses a certain quality (quality X), then it must owe it's origin to a supernatural source.

Right, that is the topic. The bible doesn't contain any aforeknowledge at all. What would you claim as aforeknowledge?

I love these type of nonsensical arguments that christians make about the bible. A certain quality? So it must owe it's origin to a supernatural source? This is absurd. It doesn't have a certain quality. It's just a book. A hatred one at that.

I agree, Jim here claims there is a quality (X) yet does not provide said quality. The Enuma Elish could be considered inspired on these terms since it has a certain quality to it too. When the quality is not explained then that could mean any quality. The bible contains no qualities that can only be explained by a supernatural source.

Atheism has a certian quality, and I can tell you what it is without being ambiguous. Free thought, intellect, reason, discernment, scepticism, questioning the questionable, and a dependency on what can be proven and not what can be wished for with faith. That is a special quality.

That would be more of a "godly" quality don't you think? I think a deity would want us to question, test, retest, examine, analyze, be skeptical. When we have these qualities and/or mentalities we will never be naive and believe everything at face value. Especially a 3000 year old text that has no bearing on the modern world.

The christian god would prefer that we are credulous, gullible, thoughtless, non-questioning, ignorant and Naive. Kind of like the way the leaders of North Korea make their people to be.

But at least you can die to escape North Korea!
RIP - Christopher Hitchens

[kayky]

But even the timing of the Gospel accounts' depiction of Jesus is astonishing given the "seventy weeks" prophecy of Daniel (Daniel 9:24 - 70 weeks being equal to 490 years)
If Jesus was crucified on the Passover eve of AD 30, that's 487.5 years after Israel's return from Babylon (in the "midst of the final week" 9:27, leaving 3.5 years to fulfill the 490 year period).

When the Gospels were written is subject to debate (most say they were written after AD 70 because Mark and Matthew mention the destruction of Jerusalem, but the underlying assumption is that there is no such thing as supernatural foreknowledge/predictive prophecy), but some of the events recorded in history (Gospel or otherwise) corroborate some claims.

My point is that the Gospels are contrivances. This "timing" is deliberate. I don't mean that as a criticism of the Gospels. I don't think they were ever meant to be literal biographies of Jesus. They were meant to be narrative liturgical writings in which to imbed the teachings of Jesus. Some elements are historical I believe, but they also have many allegorical and mythic elements.

[Nickman]

But even the timing of the Gospel accounts' depiction of Jesus is astonishing given the "seventy weeks" prophecy of Daniel (Daniel 9:24 - 70 weeks being equal to 490 years)
If Jesus was crucified on the Passover eve of AD 30, that's 487.5 years after Israel's return from Babylon (in the "midst of the final week" 9:27, leaving 3.5 years to fulfill the 490 year period).

When the Gospels were written is subject to debate (most say they were written after AD 70 because Mark and Matthew mention the destruction of Jerusalem, but the underlying assumption is that there is no such thing as supernatural foreknowledge/predictive prophecy), but some of the events recorded in history (Gospel or otherwise) corroborate some claims.

Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy has not been agreed on at all. It has been tweeked and turned and all in efforts to make it fit the time frame of the beginning of the first century. The gospels cannot be used as evidence for fulfilled prophecy or anything.

[arian]

The christian god would prefer that we are credulous, gullible, thoughtless, non-questioning, ignorant and Naive. Kind of like the way the leaders of North Korea make their people to be.

You are so right, the 'christian god', this Deity who rules mankind from his limited supernatural realm would prefer that we are credulous, gullible, thoughtless, non-questioning, ignorant and Naive. Kind of like the way the leaders of North Korea make their people to be', but NOT the God of the Bible. It is beyond words how important it is to learn to discern the spirits that be!

As you said of the rulers of North Korea who rule over their people with fear, Satan does the same thing, all we have to do is look back to the history of Christianity that ruled the nations with a sword at the peoples throats.

This is NOT Biblical and that is not what Jesus taught.

Satan is not an entity. It is a personified concept. The word satawn means adversary and can be applied to anything that hinders. God is a ha-Satawn in the bible at times.

Numbers 22:22,23 "and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him." 23 "behold, I went out to withstand thee,"

That's no different then defining the love Jesus had for his Apostles, especially John as being homosexual in nature. Or to greet each other with the 'Holy Kiss' as a homosexual foreplay to an orgy.

Yes, God will raise an adversary to all who oppose Him, which doesn’t mean He is evil in nature. Satan is a ‘created being’, God is not, God Is, or as He explained to Moses: “I Am�.

1 Samuel 29:4 The Philistines say: "lest he [David] be an adversary against us"

Yep, and what an adversary David could have become to the Philistines. You confuse adversary with Satan. Here is an example:

1 Peter 5:8-11

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

2 Samuel 19:22 David says: "[you sons of Zeruaiah] should this day be adversaries (plural) unto me?"

1 Kings 5:4 Solomon writes to Hiram: "there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.

1 Kings 11:14 "And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite"

1 Kings 11:23 "And God stirred him up an adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah" 25 "And he [Rezon] was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon"

In each of these verses satan is used as a noun. The word adversary is translated from the original word satan or satawn.

Again, please read 1 Peter 5:8

Thanks.

[Nickman]

That's no different then defining the love Jesus had for his Apostles, especially John as being homosexual in nature. Or to greet each other with the 'Holy Kiss' as a homosexual foreplay to an orgy.

Totally different. Your talking about three different words for love with three different meanings and from Greek.

Yes, God will raise an adversary to all who oppose Him, which doesn’t mean He is evil in nature. Satan is a ‘created being’, God is not, God Is, or as He explained to Moses: “I Am�.

I never said god was evil in this thread. But one should conclude that a person that creates something evil would be evil. Thats not the topic though, the word satan in Hebrew is not a noun, it is an adjective.

Yep, and what an adversary David could have become to the Philistines. You confuse adversary with Satan. Here is an example:

The word Satawn means adversary. They in Hebrew you would read the word satawn in english you read the equivalent word adversary. Satan is not an english word. It is an interpolation of a word from one language to another with no translation due to bias ideas i.e. making satan a proper noun when it is an adjective.

1 Peter 5:8-11

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

If you would study your bible you would understand that the word devil is translated from the word diabolos which means to strike through, slander or accuse. This would then lead you to more knowledge and you would learn that it was the Romans who were the accusers, oppresors, that were against the Christians. Not a devil. Christians were persecuted by the Romans and they were the accusers or diabolos. Your understanding of the the world devil is superficial with a modern twist. It keeps you from learning actual history that is in the bible. Under the persecution of Christians by Romans, letters had to be vague in order that anyone found to have one could not be used as propaganda and further persecution on that person. Carrying a note that says Rome is this or that was in itself grounds for punishment.

Again, please read 1 Peter 5:8

Thanks.

Peter has nothing to do with any OT verse whatsoever.

[arian]

That's no different then defining the love Jesus had for his Apostles, especially John as being homosexual in nature. Or to greet each other with the 'Holy Kiss' as a homosexual foreplay to an orgy.

Totally different. Your talking about three different words for love with three different meanings and from Greek.

I was referring to intent.

Yes, God will raise an adversary to all who oppose Him, which doesn’t mean He is evil in nature. Satan is a ‘created being’, God is not, God Is, or as He explained to Moses: “I Am�.

I never said god was evil in this thread. But one should conclude that a person that creates something evil would be evil. Thats not the topic though, the word satan in Hebrew is not a noun, it is an adjective.

Evil is an adjective, and God warns us of this ‘adjective’ and how he can deceive us;

Matt 5:37
37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one (adjective).
NKJV

Matt 6:13
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one (adjective).
NKJV

John 17:15-16
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one (adjective).
NKJV

2 Thess 3:3-4
3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one (adjective). 4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you.
NKJV

Is that better? “Pray that you should keep them from the adjective, guard them from the adjective, let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' for whatever is more than these is from the adjective one. Using Satan in the form of an adjective like; evil one, adversary, the father of ‘lies’, the accuser does not make him extinct, but gives us more reasons to avoid him.

Yep, and what an adversary David could have become to the Philistines. You confuse adversary with Satan. Here is an example:

The word Satawn means adversary. They in Hebrew you would read the word satawn in english you read the equivalent word adversary. Satan is not an english word. It is an interpolation of a word from one language to another with no translation due to bias ideas i.e. making satan a proper noun when it is an adjective.

Fine, let’s forget Satawn, the Devil, and stick with that evil ‘adjective’. We are warned of the ‘adjective one’ then and all his evil ways.

1 Tim 5:14
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
NKJV

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
NKJV

1 Peter 5:8-11
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

If you would study your bible you would understand that the word devil is translated from the word diabolos which means to strike through, slander or accuse. This would then lead you to more knowledge and you would learn that it was the Romans who were the accusers, oppresors, that were against the Christians. Not a devil. Christians were persecuted by the Romans and they were the accusers or diabolos.

I see, so it was the Romans who were the diabolos, like Peter ey?

Matt 16:23
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
NKJV

I don’t care if Jesus said here; "Get behind Me you strike through-er, slanderer and accuser! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." We would still know who He was referring to.

Your understanding of the the world devil is superficial with a modern twist.

Yes, like a cocktail, right?

It keeps you from learning actual history that is in the bible. Under the persecution of Christians by Romans, letters had to be vague in order that anyone found to have one could not be used as propaganda and further persecution on that person. Carrying a note that says Rome is this or that was in itself grounds for punishment.

Ah yes, … persecution, Believers and Followers of Christ had to avoid persecution and punishment at all cost. When the enemy got close to their secret meeting places, they started killing, lying and cheating as they hid in deep catacombs to keep people from finding out that ‘they Believed in God!’ LOL

And you say ‘I am kept from learning actual Bible history’? Where in the ‘noun’ did you come up with all this?

Now I will tell you what Jesus said to Peter: "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Again, please read 1 Peter 5:8
Thanks.

Peter has nothing to do with any OT verse whatsoever.

Again, where do you get all this stuff? What do you think Peter spoke, New Testament German, or English? LOL

Wait, I get it, you think Peter was a Gentile who followed Constantine’s white blond and blue eyed god idol with a halo on his head wearing wings on his back like an eagle, who was permanently stuck to a cross. So people had no choice but to go to his mother Mary idol and started praying to her instead so she would intercede with God for them.

Only people didn’t realize that this Mary idol had a baby in her hand that they were praying to, and never bothered to ask who the blond guy permanently nailed to the cross was?

Learn the Bible my friend, try English, there are plenty of different translations, if you study them with an honest intent to learn and God will grant you the wisdom to understand.

[jimvansage]

so, the divine authorship of the Bible can be supported by deduction?

[Justin108]

Since we cannot see the spirit world . . .

This statement begs the question against those of us who disbelieve in the "spirit world." Why believe such a thing exists, especially considering there is no evidence for its existence?

I am not going to argue this point in this thread, or maybe in any thread. I believe their is plenty of evidence for the spirit world. I think Wiccans do as well. If you go to Amazon and do a search in books for "Life after Death" or "Out of Body Experiences" or "Near Death Experiences" you will find lots of evidence. I once read a book about meditating in such a fashion that your spirit leaves your body and it didn't take me long to get so freaked out when doing this that I quit. I also experienced this when training my mind to work like a computer. It seems to me there is something more than atoms in there.

LSD can also give you an out-of-body experience. The mind is a delicate thing. It fools itself ever so often.

[Justin108]

1) If Jesus is the Son of God, then the Bible is divinely inspired

2) Jesus is the Son of God

3) Therefore, the Bible is divinely inspired

That's a logical deduction with the conclusion that the Bible is divinely inspired, which serves to show that divine inspiration can be demonstrated with the use of logic. Perhaps McCulloch would like to elaborate on what he's looking for?

Except that this is the logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

[stubbornone]

I believe that the following facets of my faith can be demonstrated by logical deduction

2. The Bible is God's Word*

Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logical deduction?

The Author's of the Bible, at least the New Testament, are well known. The Apostolic Gospels are written by Matthew, Mark, Luke. Then there are the Pauline Epistles, written by Paul, and even Revelations, written by John of Patmos.

Given that these are well known claims by those knowledgeable of the Bible, I am left wondering what specifically you are asking about regarding the authorship of the Bible?