A belief of the Jehovah Witnesses?

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:02 am

Garbe, Detlef (2008). Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich. University of Wisconsin Press. pp. 37, 38. ISBN 0-299-20794-3.

" In their opinion, only people who have accepted Jehovah and subsequently submit to his requirements will survive Armageddon and enter into the New World ... Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that a person confessing to worship God has to be associated with the true Christian denomination. Since they claim to be the only true religious denomination, they also claim to have the only means for salvation."

Is this a belief that all Jehovah Witnesses hold?

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:17 pm

[Replying to post 76 by JehovahsWitness]

There is no question about our association after Armageddon, but, unless we are associating now with Godâ€™s congregation, we will not be alive to enjoy association with him, his Son and his people after Armageddon.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/196 ... p=par#h=24

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:19 pm

[Replying to post 69 by tam]

I believe that it allows for non-baptized people to be part of the great crowd. I've never heard it preached over the platform that ALL non-JWs will be destroyed.

.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:36 pm

[Replying to post 75 by tam]

Hey tam.....you went all the way back to 1952 to show what we believe NOW? In 1952 our organization did not have all of its dogmas fixed in stone. Even back in the 1970s the brothers had attitudes about some things that are changed now. Before 1974 people in the organization could smoke. After that we were taught that smoking was defiling the body, per 2 Corinthians 7:1, and it would be a disfellowshipping offense. We don't think like 1952 anymore, on quite a few issues.

We're not going anywhere. Jesus has the sayings of everlasting life, and he is the head of the WTS.

.

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:49 pm

Peace to you,

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 75 by tam]

Hey tam.....you went all the way back to 1952 to show what we believe NOW?

I just googled the jw online library, entered 'armageddon' in the search bar, and that was one thing that came up. Like I said, I was surprised.

In 1952 our organization did not have all of its dogmas fixed in stone. Even back in the 1970s the brothers had attitudes about some things that are changed now.

Yes, the WTS is still (to this day) changing things that it has taught. You don't think this is an awful lot of error for a religion that claims to have 'the truth'?

Before 1974 people in the organization could smoke. After that we were taught that smoking was defiling the body, per 2 Corinthians 7:1, and it would be a disfellowshipping offense. We don't think like 1952 anymore, on quite a few issues.

I will suggest (for reasons previously stated) that post-1974 thinking on the matter of smoking and dis-fellowshiping is also an erroneous teaching of the WTS.

And what about the words from Christ:

"Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him; but the things that come out of a man, these are what defile him.â€� Mark 7:25

Peace again to you,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:16 pm

Peace to you,

JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:
I did produce the evidence to support my claim (post 33 and 35). .

No you did not. You quoted a passage that didn't even mention the words Jehovahs Witnesses and then put your own spin on it. I am not not interested in twisted anti-Witness propaganda thank you very much nor in strawman interpretations.

From the same article, speaking of the Great Crowd:

Further, they have become zealous Witnesses of Jehovahâ€‹â€”â€œrendering him sacred service day and night in his temple.â€� Are you one of this dedicated great crowd? If so, it is your privilege to serve Jehovah without letup in the earthly courtyard of his great spiritual temple. Today, under the direction of the anointed ones, the great crowd is performing by far the greater part of the witness work.

And while the quotes I posted previously did not mention the words "Jehovah's Witnesses", one quote did state, "This great crowd is part of the only truly united multinational organization on earth today."

What organization is that?

Peace again to you.

tam · Post by **tam** » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:31 pm

Peace again to you.

Here you go:

Only Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the â€œgreat crowd,â€� as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/198 ... &p=par#h=9

tam · Post by **tam** » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:03 am

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:55 am

[Replying to post 83 by tam]

Are you going to claim Jesus Apostles never held incorrect ideas? Or if they did they couldn't have been Jesus chosen ones?

ACTS 1:6

â€œLord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?â€� He said to them: â€œIt does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

Like the Apostle Peter and his companions we have held erronous ideas, (that's no secret we don't hide that). Jehovah's Witnesses are a progressive organisation that has enjoyed ever increasing spiritual enlightenment as God has revealed it to us. We believe God chose us as an organization because we have, like the Apostles, been willing to change our ideas when errors have been revealed.

Can you say the same thing of yourself?

JW

To learn more go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , THE 2ND COMING and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:14 am

[Replying to post 85 by tam]

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." - Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19 par 7a

Jehovah's Witnesss believe the only ORGANIZATION [ *] that will survive the coming destructon of Armageddon will be ours.

* made up of two groups an anointed remnant of (the 144, 000) born again christians and potential members of the "great crowd" ie Christians with an earthly hope

QUESTION: Does the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses believe only their ORGANIZATION will survive Harmageddon not constitute a belief that no other individuals outside their organization will survive?

No, the survival of an organization is not to be equated with the destiny of those that work elsewhere.

To illustrate: If a financial crash resulted in the collapse of all companies except say MICROSOFT this doesn't mean everyone that works for APPLE will die. Apple workers will be unemployed because Apple as a company will not longer exist, but that is not a comment on the destiny of individuals. The end of an organization doesn't mean the end of the lives of those that are associated with it.
In any case in the Jehovah's Witness teaching (which is what we are concerned with) the end of all religious and secular organizations save one is not a comment on the salvation of individuals (either within or outside) associated them. The Jehovah's Witness doctrine is that each individual will be judged by Jesus and their continued life or death will be independent of the fate of the worlds organizations.

Further, as has been stated, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe many millions that were unaware of the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses either because it didn't exist at the time or they were not educated as to its existence, will have the opportunity to learn and obtain salvation.

QUESTIONS: If people have the chance to survive God's coming destruction of the wicked without being one of JW, why encourage them to become Jehovah's Witnesses?

Because being part of the true religion has immediate benefits, because JWs believe those that are suitably educated will be in the privileged position of being able to help others in the new world learn about God's standards and because being in God's organization is the safest place for lovers of truth to be.

To illustrate: Imagine if in an area prone to earthquakes there was ONE building that was constructed to withstand earthquakes. Being in the building doesn't guarantee survival, a lamp could drop on your head and still kill you, neither does being outside mean automatically one will be killed (survivors have been known to be dug out of the rubble days after earthquakes) and if one is in an area far from a building one may well go unharmed... but where would the safest place be?
In a similar way, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the one "earthquake" worthy organization, built to stand the coming destruction of God, is their own. There will be survivors that are not in it, maybe millions... we don't know, but what we do know, is that when the dust settles, there will be one building (organization) still standing. We urge people to put themselves in it.

For more on this topic please consult my earlier posts.

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe they are the only ones tbat will be saved?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 21#1003121

Will those that are NOT Jehovah's Witnesses be automatically condemned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 330#861330

What is the OFFICIAL statement regarding the salvation of non-Witnesses?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 220#865220

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:02 am

REVELATION 7:9

After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, [...] saying: â€œSalvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.

Who are the great crowd mentioned in the book of Revelation? The "great crowd" is a group of people that will survive Armageddon.
Who do they worship?They will all worship God identified in the book of Revelation as "Jah" (a shorterned form of Jehovah). They are in short all Jehovah worshippers.

Further, they [the Great Crowd] have become zealous Witnesses of Jehovah rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple. - re chap 20 p. 126 par 25
REVELATION 7:14-15
"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, ... they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple
Do Jehovahs Witnesses identify themselves with said great crowd Absolutely yes. Indeed being "one of the great crowd" is for them shorthand for being a Christian with an earthly hope that presently worships Jehovah and hopes to survive Armageddon to continuce worshipping him forever.

DOES THE FACT THAT JWs IDENTIFY AS MEMBERS OF THE GREAT CROWD MEAN THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT ANYONE THAT PRESENTLY DOES NOT IDENTIFY AS SUCH WILL BE KILLED ?

No. If someone doesn't worship Jehovah now but is judged, they certainly will become a worshipper of Jehovah God having survived the tribulaton. They too will thus find themselves part of that "great crowd" of Jehovah worshippers/witnesses.

WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT SEE THEMSELVES AS MEMBERS NOW ?

Claiming to serve God now and identifying as a member of the "great crowd" now doesn't constitute a judgement on any other individuals any more than a Christian claiming to be "heaven-bound" constitutes condemning everyone else to "hell" or eternal destruction. Like all christians Jehovahs witnesses serve God, aware of what a privilege it is, and leave the rest to God.

Are you one of this dedicated great crowd? If so, it is your privilege to serve Jehovah without letup in the earthly courtyard of his great spiritual temple. Today, under the direction of the anointed ones, the great crowd is performing by far the greater part of the witness work. - re chap 20 p. 126 par 25

Just because the final judgement remains with God that doesnt mean we have to put off serving Him for fear others might be offended or read more into our position than we have stated.

CONCLUSION The Jehovahs Witness commentary on Revelation 7:9-15 in no way constitutes a statement that anyone that doesnt presently identify with the great crowd will be killed. It is no secret that JWs identify themselves as potential Armageddon survivors, most Christians do. Holding such a hope and believing God will ultimately judge everyone individually is is not mutually exclusive.

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