Drowning pigs

[Zzyzx]

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According to the Gospels, in a Jewish area / town Gerasene, Jesus cast demons into a herd of 2000 swine " that committed suicide by running into the sea.

There are three somewhat different versions: Matthew 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39.

Observations:

1. Pigs can swim
2. Why would herdsmen have 2000 swine? Were they kept as pets?
3. Swine are 'unclean animals' not to be eaten by Jews.
4. Two thousand animals of any kind would have represented a great investment and great responsibility. Was compensation paid?

[1213]

Are you absolutely certain that the abyss the demons begged not to be sent to referred to the sea of Galilee?

It is possible that it is not the abyss they meant. But, they were drowned into water, which could be called also abyss.

[1213]

That you ask questions about your own religion, makes observers have little faith in your own understanding of it.
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He was asking about what I said. And what I say is not anyones religion. And he is also correct that the abyss can mean something else than bottom of a lake or sea.

And also, being a believer doesnt mean one knows all. For example, Bible doesnt tell can demons be drowned and killed by water, therefore I really dont know how it is. It doesnt mean one cant then believe or know anything else.

[Zzyzx]

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It is possible that it is not the abyss they meant. But, they were drowned into water, which could be called also abyss.

Of course, of course; we can redefine abyss to mean water (attempting to make sense of nonsense). Thus:

Matthew 8:32 And He said to them, Go! And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.

Becomes:

'The whole herd rushed down the water into the sea'

That's a great apologetic -- equal to redefining 'steep bank' as 'cliff'

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you absolutely certain that the abyss the demons begged not to be sent to referred to the sea of Galilee?

It is possible that it is not the abyss they meant. But, they were drowned into water, which could be called also abyss.

I only ask because you seem to really love the bible and I have found that style of questions, the ability to ask "Hmmm I wonder what those demons meant.... what "abyss" did they fear? And Why? Did they drown ? Can demons drown? How does that fit in with other parts of the bible?..." really allows one to find beautiful truths in scripture.

Not just about this topic but about other things in the bible, fundamental or deep. Imo, If one loves truth, the ability to ask the question is the key to finding it.

JW

[Tcg]

For example, Bible doesnt tell can demons be drowned and killed by water, therefore I really dont know how it is.

We know from the story of the Great Oz that witches can be killed with water. To quote the Wicked Witch from the West after Dorothy doused her with water:

• Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!! You cursed brat!
  
  Look what you've done!! I'm melting, melting.
  
  Ohhhhh, what a world, what a world.
  
  Who would have thought that some little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness.
  
  OHHHHHHH!!! NO!!! I'm going...Ohhhhhhh..ohhhhhhhhhhhhh....

I'm not sure if demons melt as easily or if either the Bible or Oz present accurate information concerning possibly fictional beings.


Tcg

[Purple Knight]

There are three important parasites found in pigs which pose a risk to humans who ingest raw or undercooked pork products. These parasites are Trichinella spiralis, a nematode or roundworm, Taenia solium, a tapeworm, and Toxoplasma gondii, a protozoan or single-celled organism.

In case some of these little critters survive cooking I do not eat piggy.

Chagas disease, an infection caused by a parasite that can lead to life-threatening heart complications, is on the rise in the US

You do have to be careful with pork. It starts out pink. Then it turns white. Next it turns brown. At last it turns black. Don't eat it (or any other meat, actually) until it's black. Then you'll be safe.

Beef has tapeworms too.

...Im more interested in why the devils asked to go into the pigs in the first place. All three gospel writers agree on the fact that the devils specifically asked for the pigs. Jesus does exactly as they ask (nice), and then they suddenly rush into a body of water of some description.....

Interesting question and it seems that the demons were not very bright, because they asked not command them to go into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and then they chose the pigs that went into the abyss the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned (Luke 8:33). Sounds quite ironic.

So here's what I'm wondering.

What if the demons were content to starve a bunch of gentiles and Jesus was content to let them do it if it saved the possessed man?

I'm not saying that would be wrong, rather, I'm saying that perhaps it was right.

[benchwarmer]

We dont know exaclty which regions where covered by Mark and the topology may well have changed somewhat since the first century, but the eastern shore of the sea of Galilee is indeed marked by its hills.

Just because there are hills/mountains near the Sea of Galilee does not mean there are any cliffs at the water edge which would be required for the story to make any sense. If they went over a cliff away from the waters edge they would simply like dead at the bottom of the cliff, not drown in any water that may be some distance away.

Out of curiosity I went and looked at the Sea of Galilee on google maps using the satellite imagery. I don't see a single hill/mountain at the waters edge. Perhaps someone with better eyes or local knowledge can set the record straight.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Sea+of+Galilee

[Tcg]

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According to the Gospels, in a Jewish area / town Gerasene, Jesus cast demons into a herd of 2000 swine " that committed suicide by running into the sea.

These demons of course came out of one man, or two if we are to accept the author of Matthew's account. Enough demons to possess 2,000 pigs. This shift of residence caused the pigs to run down a hill and drown in a body of water.

Are we to believe that this one dude, or perhaps two dudes, had the strength to resist the influence of 2,000 or more demons, or 1,000 or more demons if there were two dudes as the known to exaggerate author of Matthew claimed. We are supposed to believe that 2,000 pigs committed suicide over the infestation that one, or perhaps two dudes, manage to deal with.

If demon infestation is such a horrible ordeal, that one dude, or perhaps those two dudes, would have drowned himself/themselves long before this story took place. Of course if demons melt in the same manner as witches do, when that dude, or those two dudes, drank water, the problem would have been solved.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 26 by Purple Knight]

Some other things to consider:

• - the demons had been torturing two humans for many years: is it wrong to alleviate human suffering?
  
  - Jesus gave permission for them to "enter" the swine, is there anything in the text to indicate Jesus knew what they would subsequently do? (They didnt kill the humans they had been torturing)
  
  - are human lives worth more than pigs? Is the life of a man worth more than one pig but not 1000 pigs?

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you absolutely certain that the abyss the demons begged not to be sent to referred to the sea of Galilee?

It is possible that it is not the abyss they meant. But, they were drowned into water, which could be called also abyss.

Are you sure the demons were drowned? Does the text say the demons drowned?

Are spirits physical subject to physical elements like cold, heat, water? (The clue is in the name)