God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 278 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:[quote[

What is "punishment" in a court judgment setting, after all? It is a judicial court judgment duly carried out, such as the one Rome gave to Jesus, which sentenced him to death.[/quote]

Pinseeker replied:

Death in God's infinite, eternal view is different than death in man's finite, temporal view in the sense that it is a separation rather than a cessation of existence. I've said it many times -- because God says it in His Word -- and will continue if necessary.

God's view will usually differ from man's view, yes, but that is by the way.

The two deaths are similar in that both involve separation and both incur loss of existence, for that is what death is and what death does.

Grace and peace to y0u, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

Yea, whatever will be next from Checkpoint...

I have no idea what this even means...

Go Pinseeker, on your merry way!

Thank you. I will, as much as possible in these social distancing, pandemic-troubled days. In the paraphrased words of Psalm 42, there is absolutely no reason for our souls to be troubled, as we have the truth of the Gospel, Jesus Himself, and the Holy Spirit. Same to you.

God's view will usually differ from man's view, yes, but that is by the way.

<chuckle> Well, it will differ if man doesn't conform his view to God's. And I don't think that's "by the way" at all. It's very relevant to this discussion.

The two deaths are similar in that both involve separation...

Yes, exactly...

... both incur loss of existence, for that is what death is and what death does.

Nope. Neither involves lack of existence. The first death involves a separation from the physical realm (this world) and as such the temporary loss of the physical body. But neither involves lack of existence. The first death is a figurative "slumber." Jesus says this just before He raises Jairus's dead daughter in Mark 5:39. And in John 11, Jesus doesn't actually say Lazarus is "sleeping," but raises Him in the same way. He reverses this separation from the physical realm and the body for both Jairus's daughter and Lazarus. Which is also evidence that Jesus is God, but that's beside the point.

But hey, we can keep treading the same well-trodden ground if you want.

Grace and peace.

Grace and peace to you also, Checkpoint.

[PinSeeker]

Here is what is wrong with this: No man knows the true path to God. Yet some say it must be their way or eternal punishment. Beware of those.

With all due respect, Brian, what you say here makes no sense, really. But what I will say is this:

In the words of Psalm 119 (verse 105), God's Word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. And Jesus, as we know, is God's Word made flesh, always present even at the beginning, always with God, and always God (John 1). And He is the way, the truth, and the life. So yes, we do know the true path to God, for He as told us.

The trouble is, some misunderstand it. Some deny it outright in unrighteousness (Romans 1); these are unbelievers. But some misunderstand it -- or at least parts of it; these may be unbelievers, but very often are believers. At any rate, such is the case here, at least regarding what God's eternal punishment is. In other words, the only real disagreement here is who is misunderstanding God's Word regarding eternal punishment and what it is. Actually, it's more than that; it also involves the character and integrity of God (and His way, not that of mere man), which, if misunderstood, is no small thing.

But still, even so, whoever is really misunderstanding in any part of this discussion, they are not disqualified from God's salvation. God has told us what is required for salvation: repentance and belief -- which will never fail to happen for those whom He elects and, by His Holy Spirit, calls (Romans 8).

So, with Paul, in humility, all we can really say at the end of the day is:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." [Romans 11:33-36]

Grace and peace to you and all.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 292 by PinSeeker]


Checkpoint wrote:

The two deaths are similar in that both involve separation, and both incur loss of existence, for that is what death is and what death does.

Nope. Neither involves lack of existence. The first death involves a separation from the physical realm (this world) and as such the temporary loss of the physical body. But neither involves lack of existence. The first death is a figurative "slumber." Jesus says this just before He raises Jairus's dead daughter in Mark 5:39. And in John 11, Jesus doesn't actually say Lazarus is "sleeping," but raises Him in the same way. He reverses this separation from the physical realm and the body for both Jairus's daughter and Lazarus.

Hebrews 9:27 puts it so simply, yet clearly:

It is appointed for mankind to die once and after this comes judgment.

It confirms that this first death is temporary, and is therefore a figurative sleep, from which we will be awakened to face judgment.

That judgment will determine whether we live or die, permanently.

We will either be given eternal life, or lose our temporary life by being put back to sleep, but this last time, permanently, in eternal death, which is what The Second Death is.

But hey, we can keep treading the same well-trodden ground if you want.

Well, it does take two to tango, you know.

Grace and peace, fellow pilgrim.

[PinSeeker]

Hebrews 9:27 puts it so simply, yet clearly...

Yes, it does. Absolutely.

It confirms that this first death is temporary, and is therefore a figurative sleep, from which we will be awakened to face judgment. That judgment will determine whether we live or die, permanently.

Absolutely.

We will either be given eternal life, or lose temporary life by being put back to sleep, this last time, permanently, in eternal death, which is The Second Death.

Nope. "Lose temporary life"? That doesn't even make sense. I guess that's a sneaky way of saying those on Jesus's left cease to exist, and that's surely not the case. There is nothing in the Bible, Hebrews 9:27 or anywhere else, about the second death being a sleep, either figurative or literal. It is portrayed graphically as just the opposite by Jesus in Luke 16, and stated graphically in Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Matthew, Revelation... all the places I have mentioned. It is, however, a separation to a place of "outer darkness" -- and this separation is both spiritual and physical -- from those who were on Jesus's right at the Judgment, and the New Heaven and New Earth.

Well, it does take two to tango, you know.

True that.

Grace and peace, fellow pilgrim.

Grace and peace to you, also.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 295 by PinSeeker]

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"Outer darkness" results from paying the wages of one's sin -- which is death:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"Outer darkness" is a good description of death as the dead know not any thing:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The wages of sin is paid, and nonbelievers enter outer darkness, when they are cast into the lake of fire:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It is entirely a second, and everlasting, physical death.

Nothing "spiritual" is involved at all.

No human is born with a spiritual body.

Our first birth is into the physical world as physical bodied humans.

To enter the spiritual Kingdom of God, we must be born a second time, or born again, as spiritual bodied beings:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Only believers will be born again as immortal spiritual bodied beings:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It's so simple and logical.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 293 by PinSeeker]

It is high-time, surely, that you and I found something of substance, in this particular thread, that we can wholeheartedly agree on, Pinseeker.

Well, this is it, written entirely by you, agreed to entirely by me(and anyone else who wants to join us, at least for a short moment).

In other words, the only real disagreement here is who is misunderstanding God's Word regarding eternal punishment and what it is.

Actually, it's more than that; it also involves the character and integrity of God (and His way, not that of mere man), which, if misunderstood, is no small thing.

But still, even so, whoever is really misunderstanding in any part of this discussion, they are not disqualified from God's salvation. God has told us what is required for salvation: repentance and belief -

It's party time - let's celebrate our awesome God!

So, with Paul, in humility, all we can really say at the end of the day is:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." [Romans 11:33-36]

Grace and peace to all.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 295 by PinSeeker]

e]
Checkpoint wrote:[quot

We will either be given eternal life, or lose temporary life by being put back to sleep, this last time, permanently, in eternal death, which is The Second Death.[/quote]

Pinseeker responded:[quote[Nope. "Lose temporary life"? That doesn't even make sense. I guess that's a sneaky way of saying those on Jesus's left cease to exist, and that's surely not the case.[/quote]

It makes sense when Jesus says it..

Luke 9:

24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.
25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?

The Lord bless and keep you.

[Charles]

[Replying to post 265 by Charles]

Psalm 9:17 does not mean that people will go back to the grave from whence they originally came. The meaning is more accurately portrayed by the following translation:
"The wicked will retreat toward the Grave, all the nations who forget God."
Big difference. The only translation that makes sense.

Changing return to to read to retreat to is only reasonable if your theology demands such an eisegetical interpretation to bolster its failings.

[Charles]

But if there is no hope or even chance of a person ever being refined, corrected, etc (such as in your second scenario with eternal punishment), then there is no point to the discipline of such a person. There is no longer any love in it.

You are right - those condemned are chastised on earth as small judgments against their evil pointing to the final judgement of their banishment to the outer darkness. Only those who can actually repent, those who have NOT sinned the unforgivable sin, are chastised by the painful discipline designed to bring them to full righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, making them heaven ready.

Whether they live in such banishment eternally or temporarily means nothing to me... we will find out.

But HIS love for us who either love HIM or can learn to love HIM is certainly enough love to have HIM protect us from the leaven of evil which is irrepressible and so must be removed for our reality for eternity.