Are we living in the last days?

[otseng]

From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.

For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

[Goose]

Well there we will have to agree to disagree. I dont believe Revelation was just tagged on the end of the bible as fundamentally irrelevant mind candy,

I will stop you right there. The insinuation here seems to be that I believe Revelations is "fundamentally irrelevant mind candy" simply because I will not commit further than saying a particular interpretation of the symbolic in Revelations is interesting. I do not believe Revelations is "fundamentally irrelevant mind candy" either.

...it is part of Gods inspired word...

Here we can agree.

... and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

I'm not here to attack those beliefs but, ironically, if Revelations was written for those living in the Lords day which began in 1914 then that would make Revelations "irrelevant mind candy" for anyone living between it's composition and 1914.

This is what I believe and my belief has been confirmed by seeing by far the majority of the book already fulfilled and the last few events unfolding as we speak.

You mean you believe "by far the majority of the book already fulfilled and the last few events unfolding as we speak."

This belief might be considered "dangerous" or "life saving" depending on which if us is right and which of us is wrong.

I won't get into why I think it's dangerous. But I will say the belief these are the end days is no way "life saving." There is only one "life saving" part to the Gospel message, and it isn't the belief that the end is here.

You of course are absolutely convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jehovahs Witness are wrong in this regard, I'm sure you'd stake your life and the lives of all you hold dear on that unshakeable conviction. I feel the same and time will tell. I assure you I take no pleasure in saying so.

This is where we differ. I am not absolutely convinced JW's are wrong or that I am right. I would never stake your life, my life, or the lives of all I hold dear on the conviction that my interpretation of a highly symbolic text is the correct one. That seems inherently dangerous.

Peace to you and yours and respect for your conssistently excellent posting,

Thank you. You as well. You are a credit to your order.

[Goose]

Though there has been of course pandemics in the past, as far as I know, this is the first global pandemic that has affected every country in the world.

But why does a larger global scope imply these are the last days when there have been other, arguably worse, global pandemics in the past?

We are just in the beginning of this pandemic. Though we are seeing areas reopening, it does not mean the pandemic is over.

You aren’t really answering my question. How does a broader global spread imply these are the last days when there have been other, arguably worse, global pandemics in the past? You seemed to suggest a broader global spread was significant. I’m wondering why.

And I agree with what you said here. The pandemic is not over just because there is movement towards reopening the economy. Nor are we past the worst of it necessarily. There could be a second and third (and fourth?) wave which could be worse than the first. But it’s all speculation at this point.

However, areas and businesses opening up does seem to imply that we may have turned a corner for now and begun moving in the direction of economic recovery. That recovery may stall with a second wave. It may not. But it does show, at the very least, a willingness on the part of governments to ease restrictions and plan a move forward toward recovery as soon as they feel it’s safe to do so.

Personally, I expect COVID19 to be with us long term. It’s a part of our reality now. Along with SARS (remember that one?) and all the other infectious diseases currently in circulation many of which are far more deadly than COVID19. SARS, by the way, had estimated death rates ranging from 3.8% to as much as 71% depending on the time and region of calculation. Death rates eventually stabilized to around 15%-17%.

Bad global pandemics are not unprecedented. The Spanish Flu infected something like 500 million people (about one-third the global population at the time) and killed many millions estimates ranging from 17 million to as much as 100 million deaths.

Look familiar?

The A/H1N1 Pandemic of 2009 killed an estimated 150,000 - 500,000 people.

The Spanish flu came on the coat tails of WWI. Think about that. Think about the millions of deaths, carnage, and destruction over those few years. The first global war the end of which was overlapped by one of the worst (at least to that point) global pandemics in history. I wonder how many people around that time thought they were seeing the last days unfold before their eyes. Yet, here we are 100 years later.

We'll see over time how this thing progresses.

Of course, enter the adage, time will tell. It's far too early to be making any concrete conclusions.

The Preterist (fulfilled) view would say these prophecies have already happened.

Myself, I don't subscribe to any particular eschatology belief.

Well you may not formally hold to a particular eschatological doctrine Otseng, but you certainly seem to have some particular eschatological beliefs. Not least of which is that you believe we are in the last days.

I believe we are in the last days in several aspects, and not all of them are religious.

That’s an eschatological belief.

Yes, I think we are starting to see the fulfillment of the end times according to the Bible.

Mar 13:8 KJV - For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Am I certain Jesus will return soon? I'm starting to be convinced of it.

That’s an interpretation consistent with futurism. Hence it’s another eschatological belief.

A passage that describes the beginning of the last days is Matt 24:7.

That’s also an interpretation consistent with futurism and therefore yet another eschatological belief.

The thing is, any thinking Christians holds at least some eschatological beliefs, even if informally.

Of course there are different beliefs about how the last days will play out, but there is general consensus that there will be a last day.

Well of course there is general consensus that there will be a last day. But that‘s not saying anything particularly meaningful. I bet we could even find some atheists around here who agree that at some point there will be a proverbial last day whether it be from nuclear war, earth’s collision with a massive meteor, the heat death of the universe, or some other cause. Saying there will be a last day is something wholly different than saying we are in the last days.

From the look of things, the way Trump is handling the epidemic now is leading to a serious confrontation with China -- which I don't think will end very well for the US.

What do you mean by “serious confrontation�? Do you mean military confrontation between China and the US? If so, what evidence is there of that? So far, it seems Trump is hastening his ongoing agenda to move America’s supply chain away from China with further tariffs and the like.

It could possibly end up being a military confrontation, but Trump has escalated it from a trade war to a financial war with China by threatening to sue China and not pay their debt holdings.

The trade war between China and the US has been going on for quite some time now. However, earlier this year China and the US managed to get past their differences and signed phase one of a trade deal. Tensions are high and relations are deteriorating at the moment. A Cold War between China and the US may very well be looming. But that wouldn’t be unprecedented for the US to be in Cold War with a communist country. Let’s not misinterpret financial/trade/legal conflict with a signal of pending military conflict.

First Thing: Trump's latest coronavirus take - sue China

Trump revealed his administration was conducting “serious investigations� into China’s handling of the disease outbreak, and would most likely seek “very substantial� damages from Beijing over the pandemic.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -sue-china

US news reports suggest White House officials have already considered the idea of cancelling all or part of the US$1.1 trillion debt owed to China

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-econ ... onse-white

Well, Trump says a lot things. At this point it’s all talk and saber rattling. From the second article...

“It's such a crazy idea that anyone who has made it should really have their fitness for office reconsidered,� said Cliff Tan, East Asian head of global markets research at MUFG Bank. “We view this as largely a political ploy for [Donald Trump’s] re-election and a cynical one because it would destroy the financing of the US federal budget deficit.�

And...

�But any move to cancel the debt owed to China – effectively defaulting on it – would be counterproductive to US interests because it would likely destroy investors’ faith in the trustworthiness of the US government to pay its bills, analysts warned.
This would send US interest rates soaring, making borrowing more costly for the government, as well US companies and consumers, and in turn strike a sharp blow to America’s already very weak economy.
The US Treasury two-year yield continued to trade near record low levels this week, suggesting market traders and fund managers are largely shrugging off what is widely seen as a far-fetched idea that the US could cancel some or all of China’s debt.’

Highly unlikely the US will choose to default on its debt obligation to China.

Revelation refers to an army with 200 million troops. If this number is to be taken literally, this most likely would refer to China.

Why would it most likely be China? And Revelations shouldn’t be taken literally without some good reasons. Revelations is known to be an apocalyptic genre.

All I'm saying is if it's to be taken literally, it would most likely refer to China.

I get that. I’m asking why most likely China? And by the way if we are to take it literally, it can’t point to China. In fact, it can’t literally point to any one nation. No nation on the planet has a military even close to 200 million strong.

If we can say there was already ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’ in existence before COVID19 it seems to undermine the notion that COVID19 is causing or will cause ‘a famine of Biblical proportions’.

My point is not to argue what number of people starving would constitute Biblical proportions.

Okay but your original point was something along the lines of implying that COVID19 is causing large scale famine, no?

But, what would be more relevant is the rate of increase of people. Doubling the number in a single year would be quite out of the ordinary.

I’m not sure why you think a doubling is significant when millions have been put at risk of severe food shortage (where there previously wasn’t one) throughout history in very short periods of time due to various events such as draughts and locust swarms. And it’s a doubling in regions which already had tens of millions put at risk in the span of a few months because of locust swarms which started in June of last year and drought which began in 2018 all well before COVID19. Of course it follows from global lockdown measures and recession that COVID19 would worsen an existing problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20 ... nfestation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–20 ... ca_drought

And besides, the number hasn’t doubled, yet. You are pointing to a projected doubling in developing nations if governments do not act. At the very end of the article you linked to Beasley said this...

“We are in this together. We can stop this becoming a widespread famine. But we need to act quickly and smartly.�

The reality is, sadly, famines have been recorded throughout human history. I don’t say all that to downplay these famines. It’s a real bad problem we are facing.

Again, we are only in the beginning of this pandemic. There are far too many people expecting some sort of V-shaped recovery and we'll just bounce out of this. This is not going to happen.

You may be right, a “V� shaped recovery may no longer be a possibility. However, it’s still a little early into the recession to say that concretely.

The expectation and realization of what an economic recovery will look like, though, isn’t particularly relevant in the long run anyway. It’s mostly academic whether it ends up being a “V� or “L� or “W� or “U� shaped recovery. The salient issue is that the global economy does recover. History says it will, even if only eventually. History says economies expand, economies contract. Then, they expand again and so on. Of course, one might say this time it’s different, that we are in “unprecedented times� so that doesn’t apply. I would say, yeah but that’s what they said during the global recession and Financial Crises of 2008/2009. That crises was, in some respects, unprecedented as well. Every crises is by definition different. Every crises presents its own set of unique circumstances. It’s very easy, when you are smack dab in the middle of a crises, to lose perspective and think the world is ending.

If these are the last days, then so be it. It doesn’t change anything for us as Christians. The end times may be part of the Christian narrative but it’s not the Good News, so I see no point in running around declaring I think the end times are here. Nor will I get caught running with the Chicken Little’s of the world who think they see the end. Gobbling up, perpetuating, and dwelling on the onslaught of bad news out there fueled by media more than happy to cover it. That’s not helpful in my opinion.

�Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.� – Philippians 4:8

[William]

[Replying to post 202 by Goose]

If these are the last days, then so be it. It doesn’t change anything for us as Christians. The end times may be part of the Christian narrative but it’s not the Good News, so I see no point in running around declaring I think the end times are here. Nor will I get caught running with the Chicken Little’s of the world who think they see the end. Gobbling up, perpetuating, and dwelling on the onslaught of bad news out there fueled by media more than happy to cover it. That’s not helpful in my opinion.

While I agree that the way things are often reported, act in a similar way to Conspiracy Theories...are problematic I also see that the bulk of the last-days thinking can be sourced with the Bible itself.

Can you explain why this is 'not helpful' - not helpful to what exactly?

Are you referring to the way in which it is handled in the psyche of the individuals who allow such to panic them?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm going to let the events coming up be my debate argument. I have this thread bookmarked, and if this website stays here, as we pass the milestones I'll put the dates on my post for those demanding proof. People will have to know that Jehovah is the true God at some point. Not by what I say but what the Bible says. (This is sounding more like a hailstone message.) Oops!

Here are the milestones 2timothy316 has documented:

1. Declare Peace and Security when there really isn't any but it will seem convincing.
2. A massive attack on world religions, in the way of their property and money. People will abandon their religions and no one will be able to stop it. (Rev. 16:12; 17:15-18; 18:7, 8, 21)
3. A tribulation the world has never seen. Everyone will be affected.
4. An attack on the last remaining religion which is the true religion. (Ezekiel 38:1, 2, 8, 18; 39:4, 11.)
5. Armageddon, the war between the governments of the Earth and Jehovah's Son Jesus. Which will stop the attack on God's people. (Matthew 24:15-22, Revleation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21)

It has now been 3 weeks since this commitment to document with dates "as we pass the milestones." At this point, none have been documented. Presumably, this is because we've passed none.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

... and written for those living in the Lords day which we believe we have been living in since 1914.

.., if Revelations was written for those living in the Lords day which began in 1914 then that would make Revelations "irrelevant mind candy" for anyone living between it's composition and 1914.

Not irrelevant but certainly not written to be accomplished in their time and their meaning not needed to acceptably serve God during those early centuries. While the fact of prophecy is itself faith strengthening, which is one of the reasons we have scripture at all, the meaning of prophecy is often deliberately concealed from the generations that live before such understanding would be needed.

DANIEL 12:9-10

Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?� Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.

We believe the time for some of the prophecies in the books of Daniel and Revelation to be understood by Gods people .... is now.



JW

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 202 by Goose]

If these are the last days, then so be it. It doesn’t change anything for us as Christians. The end times may be part of the Christian narrative but it’s not the Good News, so I see no point in running around declaring I think the end times are here. Nor will I get caught running with the Chicken Little’s of the world who think they see the end. Gobbling up, perpetuating, and dwelling on the onslaught of bad news out there fueled by media more than happy to cover it. That’s not helpful in my opinion.

While I agree that the way things are often reported, act in a similar way to Conspiracy Theories...are problematic I also see that the bulk of the last-days thinking can be sourced with the Bible itself.

Can you explain why this is 'not helpful' - not helpful to what exactly?

Are you referring to the way in which it is handled in the psyche of the individuals who allow such to panic them?

That kind of emphasis is sourced not only from the bible, but from the gospels themselves. Jesus' central message, his good news, was that the kingdom of God was at hand, which could well have been an eschatological message, and numerous passages are unequivocally so - most notably in Mark 13 and Matthew 10/16/24. Of course Christians tend not to be comfortable with the fact that Jesus and the apostles expected the end to occur within that very generation, so other varieties of good news have flourished in the centuries since then.

The insinuation here...

I liked the original edit

[Danmark]

....
Jesus' central message, his good news, was that the kingdom of God was at hand, which could well have been an eschatological message, and numerous passages are unequivocally so - most notably in Mark 13 and Matthew 10/16/24. Of course Christians tend not to be comfortable with the fact that Jesus and the apostles expected the end to occur within that very generation, so other varieties of good news have flourished in the centuries since then.

Agreed. In fact it is a point that should be obvious to any reader. But 2000 years of explaining away their disappointment, and reframing the issue has blinded the Christian tribe to the meaning of their own sacred documents. It was either that, or abandon the tribe altogether.

When you add the failure of its most important prediction, to the supernatural nonsense, Christianity is left with some great moral lessons from His parables, the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, and his constant and powerful criticism of religious hypocrisy. These are lessons learned by everyone except a large segment of fundamentalist/evangelical Christians who appear to focus on being against Gays, against a woman's right to choose, and in essence emulating the Pharisees.

[William]

[Replying to post 202 by Goose]

If these are the last days, then so be it. It doesn’t change anything for us as Christians. The end times may be part of the Christian narrative but it’s not the Good News, so I see no point in running around declaring I think the end times are here. Nor will I get caught running with the Chicken Little’s of the world who think they see the end. Gobbling up, perpetuating, and dwelling on the onslaught of bad news out there fueled by media more than happy to cover it. That’s not helpful in my opinion.

My question seems to be unanswered. Why is it 'not helpful'?

Also, it is apparent to me that Jesus' 'central message' involved the idea of the KoG in specific ways, and that the particular idea of it 'being within' in reference to the individuals realization that real and substantial changes had to occur within the individual. [Luke 17:21]

(How that might translate externally would have been because of that first step.)

That it might be among some of Christendoms most important predictions - and one most hoped for - Luke has Jesus clearly stating that The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs...
While I agree that the way things are often reported, act in a similar way to Conspiracy Theories...are problematic I also see that the bulk of the last-days thinking can be sourced with the Bible itself.

Can you explain why this is 'not helpful' - not helpful to what exactly?

Are you referring to the way in which it is handled in the psyche of the individuals who allow such to panic them?

That kind of emphasis is sourced not only from the bible, but from the gospels themselves. Jesus' central message, his good news, was that the kingdom of God was at hand, which could well have been an eschatological message, and numerous passages are unequivocally so - most notably in Mark 13 and Matthew 10/16/24. Of course Christians tend not to be comfortable with the fact that Jesus and the apostles expected the end to occur within that very generation, so other varieties of good news have flourished in the centuries since then.

The insinuation here...

I liked the original edit

My question seems to be unanswered. Why is it 'not helpful'?

Also, it is apparent to me that Jesus' 'central message' involved the idea of the KoG in specific ways, and that the particular idea of it 'being within' in reference to the individuals realization that real and substantial changes had to occur within the individual. [Luke 17:21]

(How that might translate externally would have been because of that first step.)

That it might be among some of Christendoms most important predictions - and one most hoped for - Luke has Jesus clearly stating that The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs...

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm going to let the events coming up be my debate argument. I have this thread bookmarked, and if this website stays here, as we pass the milestones I'll put the dates on my post for those demanding proof. People will have to know that Jehovah is the true God at some point. Not by what I say but what the Bible says. (This is sounding more like a hailstone message.) Oops!

Here are the milestones 2timothy316 has documented:

1. Declare Peace and Security when there really isn't any but it will seem convincing.
2. A massive attack on world religions, in the way of their property and money. People will abandon their religions and no one will be able to stop it. (Rev. 16:12; 17:15-18; 18:7, 8, 21)
3. A tribulation the world has never seen. Everyone will be affected.
4. An attack on the last remaining religion which is the true religion. (Ezekiel 38:1, 2, 8, 18; 39:4, 11.)
5. Armageddon, the war between the governments of the Earth and Jehovah's Son Jesus. Which will stop the attack on God's people. (Matthew 24:15-22, Revleation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21)

It has now been 3 weeks since this commitment to document with dates "as we pass the milestones." At this point, none have been documented. Presumably, this is because we've passed none.


Tcg

"So keep yourselves in expectation of me,’ declares Jehovah,‘Until the day when I rise up to take plunder, For my judicial decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them my indignation, all my burning anger; For by the fire of my zeal the whole earth will be consumed." (Zephaniah 3:8)

Good to see you're 'keeping yourself in expectation' of the things to come. Keep it up. Don't be like others who fall asleep and 'take no note' only to be caught off guard when these things do transpire. (1 Thess 5:6, Matthew 24:37-39)

I hope to see you keep these Bible prophecies in mind for months or even it ends up being years. Keep coming back to this thread as a reminder if it helps.

[otseng]

You aren’t really answering my question. How does a broader global spread imply these are the last days when there have been other, arguably worse, global pandemics in the past? You seemed to suggest a broader global spread was significant. I’m wondering why.

Clarification needs to be made when I say I believe it's the last days. From post 119, "For now, I'm convinced it's the last days of America as a great nation and the last days of many global structures. As evidence mounts, I'm getting more convinced it will be the Biblical last days as well."

I'm not claiming it is the Biblical last days. The evidence for it is not persuasive enough to win a case, but I do see evidence mounting. One of the things swaying me to believe it is the Biblical last days is the timing of all the events.

Personally, I expect COVID19 to be with us long term.

Yes, I agree.

The thing is, any thinking Christians holds at least some eschatological beliefs, even if informally.

Yes. I do believe there will be a time when Jesus will come back, but I do not claim to be a pre, post, amillennialist, or preterist.

Saying there will be a last day is something wholly different than saying we are in the last days.

Of course. I've never claimed we are in the Biblical last days ... at least not yet.

Let’s not misinterpret financial/trade/legal conflict with a signal of pending military conflict.

I've never claimed there will be a military conflict. It would be catastrophic if that happened and if it did occur it would further lead me to believe we are in the Biblical last days.

Highly unlikely the US will choose to default on its debt obligation to China.

I don't think it can be ruled out. At this point, there is no way to meet our debt obligations through taxation. So, the current path is to debase our currency. But, that path only increases our debt.

Our credit card balance is through the roof. Currently we have enough credit to pay for things by applying for more credit cards. But, when we are not able to apply for more credit cards, we will have to start missing our monthly payments.

In fact, it can’t literally point to any one nation. No nation on the planet has a military even close to 200 million strong.

Yes, I agree there are no country currently with a military of that size. And most nations don't even have a population of that size. All I'm saying is China alone could it even be possible to have a military of that size. Would it happen? I do not know.

Okay but your original point was something along the lines of implying that COVID19 is causing large scale famine, no?

All I stated was, "As for famines, even the secular media claims the Coronavirus pandemic 'will cause famine of biblical proportions'."

So, no, I did not claim covid-19 is causing massive famine. But, I will claim it will contribute to the rise of large scale famine across the world. One major affect of covid-19 in the rise of famine is the shutdown of the supply chain. In addition, there are other factors as well that would contribute to the rise of famine (weather patterns, pests, floods, etc).

You may be right, a “V� shaped recovery may no longer be a possibility. However, it’s still a little early into the recession to say that concretely.

The signs are pretty obvious to me that a V-shaped (or any shaped) recovery is not possible.