God created all things by Jesus Christ

[Stewardofthemystery]

This is another way to prove the identity of Jesus Christ the Son of God as being the very Word of God.

Notice…

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

And here….

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And here….

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

In the above 3 verses we see that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the Word of God are the same, by which God created all things.

Peace and God bless

[Capbook]

...
Lexicon define "by" not the same as yours. (through) is not one of them.

NT:1722
<END GREEK> en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. )

The Greek at Colossian 1v16b is not not EN but DIA



COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p925193
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p934901

That is EN in red.

Verse 16 b (not 16a)

That is G1722. (by)

This has been addressed, see above .

I prefer lexicon. Can you post yours?

[JehovahsWitness]

I prefer lexicon. Can you post yours?

Certainly see links below ...

COLOSSIAN 1v15-17 Was the world created by christ or by means of Christ ?
viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p925193
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p934901

[Capbook]

I prefer lexicon. Can you post yours?

Certainly see links below ...



COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p925193
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p934901

I prefer with corresponding original Greek word just like what I posted.

[JehovahsWitness]

I prefer lexicon. Can you post yours?

Certainly see links below ...



COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p925193
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p934901

I prefer with corresponding original Greek word just like what I posted.

Yes and so do I. See above.



RELATED POST

Was the Greek language spoken in Palestine?
viewtopic.php?p=1144836#p1144836

[Capbook]

I prefer lexicon. Can you post yours?

Certainly see links below ...



COLOSSIANS 1:16 "all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p925193
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p934901

I prefer with corresponding original Greek word just like what I posted.

Yes and so do I. See above.

Above are link, I prefer to see it here just like what I did.

[JehovahsWitness]

COLOSSIANS 1v16


He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ 16 because [font color="blue"]by means of him[/font] all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist,
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... 51C001.htm

"Through him God made all things" John 1:3 (GNT)
"all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b (KJV)

The Greek word employed both in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16(c) is "dia" "dia" (διά). According to STRONG'S #1223 DIA is {quote} "a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act". Strong's offers a variety of prepositions such as: by, for (cause), in, of, by reason of etc. Most translations opt for "through" and "by" in Colossians and John both of which communicate the notion of intermediate agency as per the root meaning of the word.

See various translations
http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm
http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

"[Dia: διά ] may be used as a "marker of instrumentality or circumstance whereby something is accomplished or effected, by, via, through ... [it] can also be a "marker of pers. agency, through, by" - A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) page 225

Theologian, Emil BRUNNER suggests that if Paul had wanted to identify Jesus as the Creator in Col 1:15-17, he would have employed the Greek word hUPO (by) used metaphorically in scripture to denote an action "under the power of", in this case, the initiator (compare Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15), stating: "...the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the Son [...] The fact that between the Creator and the Creation there stands the Mediator of creation means that the world is an act of the freedom of God, that it does not proceed from the Logos." - "The Christian Doctrine of God." (Volume I), Emil BRUNNER, p. 308

1:16 Absence of "from" = CREATOR/initiator (the use of the prepositions)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... s-116.html

Through DIA not by HUPO
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -emil.html

dia
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -post.html
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1223

in him/through him
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... sions.html

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COLOSSIAN 1v15-17 Was the world created by christ or by means of Christ ?
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GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[Capbook]

COLOSSIANS 1v16


He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ 16 because [font color="blue"]by means of him[/font] all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist,
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... 51C001.htm

"Through him God made all things" John 1:3 (GNT)
"all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b (KJV)

The Greek word employed both in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16(c) is "dia" "dia" (διά). According to STRONG'S #1223 DIA is {quote} "a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act". Strong's offers a variety of prepositions such as: by, for (cause), in, of, by reason of etc. Most translations opt for "through" and "by" in Colossians and John both of which communicate the notion of intermediate agency as per the root meaning of the word.

See various translations
http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm
http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

"[Dia: διά ] may be used as a "marker of instrumentality or circumstance whereby something is accomplished or effected, by, via, through ... [it] can also be a "marker of pers. agency, through, by" - A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) page 225

Theologian, Emil BRUNNER suggests that if Paul had wanted to identify Jesus as the Creator in Col 1:15-17, he would have employed the Greek word hUPO (by) used metaphorically in scripture to denote an action "under the power of", in this case, the initiator (compare Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15), stating: "...the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the Son [...] The fact that between the Creator and the Creation there stands the Mediator of creation means that the world is an act of the freedom of God, that it does not proceed from the Logos." - "The Christian Doctrine of God." (Volume I), Emil BRUNNER, p. 308

1:16 Absence of "from" = CREATOR/initiator (the use of the prepositions)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... s-116.html

Through DIA not by HUPO
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -emil.html

dia
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -post.html
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1223

in him/through him
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... sions.html

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Hebrews 1:8 ("God is your throne")How should it be translated?
viewtopic.php?p=1154222#p1154222

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viewtopic.php?p=1155051#p1155051

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

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In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722". Are you basing your Greek lexicon from NWT?

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

Col 1:16 οτι G3754 CONJ  εν G1722 PREP  αυτω G846 P-DSM  εκτισθη G2936 V-API-3S  τα G3588 T-NPN  παντα G3956 A-NPN  τα G3588 T-NPN  εν G1722 PREP  τοις G3588 T-DPM  ουρανοις G3772 N-DPM  και G2532 CONJ  τα G3588 T-NPN  επι G1909 PREP  της G3588 T-GSF  γης G1093 N-GSF  τα G3588 T-NPN  ορατα G3707 A-NPN  και G2532 CONJ  τα G3588 T-NPN  αορατα G517 A-NPN  ειτε G1535 CONJ  θρονοι G2362 N-NPM  ειτε G1535 CONJ  κυριοτητες G2963 N-NPF  ειτε G1535 CONJ  αρχαι G746 N-NPF  ειτε G1535 CONJ  εξουσιαι G1849 N-NPF  τα G3588 T-NPN  παντα G3956 A-NPN  δι G1223 PREP  αυτου G846 P-GSM  και G2532 CONJ  εις G1519 PREP  αυτον G846 P-ASM  εκτισται G2936 V-RPI-3S

[JehovahsWitness]

In original Greek that is still "EV". Still "G1722".

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

The opening line in Colossians 1v16a reads in the King James Version "For by him were all things created..." this might be understood by lead the English reader to think that he (Jesus) initiated Creation but is that what the Greek word used means? The original Greek word is EV, notice what the what Strong's has to say about this word...



So EV does not mean being responsible or the instigator of an action but literally it means being in the midway or middle position (for example between two extremes) So if you go to London "by train" this does not mean London created the train but rather that the train was the means by which you traveled from A to B. So rather than saying Jesus initiated creation, this part of the verse could read that Jesus was the means or the instrument by which Creation came about.

How can we know if this is the correct understanding of EV for this verse? By reading the rest of the verse where Paul repeats the same idea of Jesus role but uses an alternative word which can be rendered "through".





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[Difflugia]

[Replying to Capbook in post #77]

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

Both words have the full range of possible meanings that you both assert. ἐν can range in meaning from "in the presence of" to "by the sole power of." διά can equally mean "through" or "of one's own agency."

The relationship between those two words alone won't tell you what Paul meant.

In fact, if we're just going by the possible range of grammatical meaning, one could draw the conclusion that the creation was made out of the very substance of Jesus.

[Bible_Student]

[Replying to Capbook in post #77]

DOES THE OPENING EXPRESSION IN COLOSSIANS 1v16 SUPPORT THE IDEA OF JESUS BEING THE CREATOR?

Both words have the full range of possible meanings that you both assert. ἐν can range in meaning from "in the presence of" to "by the sole power of." διά can equally mean "through" or "of one's own agency."

The relationship between those two words alone won't tell you what Paul meant.

In fact, if we're just going by the possible range of grammatical meaning, one could draw the conclusion that the creation was made out of the very substance of Jesus.

I see in Col. 1:16 three different expressions, each one with a different Greek preposition, associating Jesus with the creation of everything:

1) ἐν αὐτῷ ... commonly translated "in him"
2) διʼ αὐτοῦ ... commonly translated "through him"
3) εἰς αὐτὸν ... commonly translated "for him"

You are saying that 1) may mean also "of his agency". Can you cite an example where that is the real translation of that preposition?

PS: I am asking for a real quotation where that preposition ἐν means "with the agency of" (or: BY), not for a "possible translation" based on a "weird interpretation".