Who created all things?

[servant1]

Isaiah 44:24- This is what Jehovah has said, your repurchaser and the former of you from the belly. I Jehovah am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the Earth. Who was with me?

Myself= the only power source and designer. How do we know this-Because Jesus was involved as well-How?
Gen 1:26--Let US make man in our image-US = more than 1 being--Gen 1:27-HE( 1 being) created--Prov 8:27-28- HE( 1being) created.
So what does US mean then?= Us = Jehovah and his master worker( Prov 8:30)= the one beside God during creation, the one whom God grew especially fond of= his son.
Jesus= The firstborn of all creation--All creation occurred at the beginning--PROOF=Prov 8:22 Possessed me as the beginning of your way( creating). The Hebrew word used for possessed means-created. Thus created direct, first and last, all other things created-THROUGH( John 1:3, Col 1:160) Through = another did the creating).= Jehovah.-)--- things created through Gods master worker. The word only begotten son means monogenes=unique=created direct first and last.
Most religions teach untruth on this matter, but i have presented bible facts on it.
Do you believe the evidence?

[onewithhim]

Isaiah 44:24- This is what Jehovah has said, your repurchaser and the former of you from the belly. I Jehovah am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the Earth. Who was with me?

Wait one minute, in your N.W.T., you admit that the Son of God created all (other) things, he being created by the Father. Now you say it was Jehovah that stretched out the heavens and laid the earth. Make up your mind! If Jesus created all other things, then he is Jehovah who stretched out the heavens and laid out the earth.

Myself= the only power source and designer. How do we know this-Because Jesus was involved as well-How?
Gen 1:26--Let US make man in our image-US = more than 1 being--Gen 1:27-HE( 1 being) created--Prov 8:27-28- HE( 1being) created.
So what does US mean then?= Us = Jehovah and his master worker( Prov 8:30)= the one beside God during creation, the one whom God grew especially fond of= his son.
Jesus= The firstborn of all creation--All creation occurred at the beginning--PROOF=Prov 8:22 Possessed me as the beginning of your way( creating). The Hebrew word used for possessed means-created. Thus created direct, first and last, all other things created-THROUGH( John 1:3, Col 1:160) Through = another did the creating).= Jehovah.-)--- things created through Gods master worker. The word only begotten son means monogenes=unique=created direct first and last.
Most religions teach untruth on this matter, but i have presented bible facts on it.
Do you believe the evidence?

You need to get a new Greek to English Lexicon and look up the word "first-born" and see how it is applied to Jesus, compared to how it is applied to men. While you're at it, look up "only begotten" concerning Jesus. Try Thayer's Greek to English dictionary; it will give you the truth, not the nonsense the Watchtower Greek to English shovels out.

monogenes single of its kind, only

Fact, Jesus was the only mortal man to have God's Spirit come to dwell in him without measure (John 3).

Fact, YHVH''s WORD by the prophet Isaiah was that YHVH would place His Spirit within a Son of Man. This man would be called to righteousness and be for a light to both Jews and Gentiles. This man filled with the Spirit would be SENT out to speak God's word of truth, do God's works and deliver captives. Such was all a glory that YHVH promised to give to no other, it was a promise for only one man (Isaiah 42).

Fact, "the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth" (Ephesians 5:9) and one who is born of God having His seed remain in him is righteous not capable of sin (1 John 3).

Fact, 1 Chronicles 17 tells us that First you have a son of David and THEN YHVH our God becomes a Father unto him and promises to settle him into His House and give him an eternal throne.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit....14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil...30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth....33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Did YHVH our God's WORD not become true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth upon him being immersed in water and then receiving God's Spirit where he was then sent being for a light??

How can anyone be so blind to not see that being born of God, being born of the Spirit of God is not the exact same thing as having God's Spirit come to dwell in and remain in you?

We are given that through the Spirit that came to dwell in Jesus he was then sent to speak God's WORD and do God's WORKS and the people beheld the glory of him who was filled with grace and truth. How is it truly not obvious that Jesus being called God's only begotten Son is because of the fact he was the only mortal to have received God's Spirit without measure whereby he was filled with the glory of God's truth for him to then be sent out to speak it?

Jesus is the Son of Man to have been promised to be exalted to God's right hand, he is the Son of Man to whom God promised to settle into His House. How does a man according to Jesus enter into God's kingdom, he must be born of the Spirit right?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and HAVING RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make* thy foes thy footstool.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Further facts,
We are joint heirs with Christ being heirs of God.
We are to be made in the image of the Son.
Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
A man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God's kingdom.
We are to be baptized with the baptism Jesus received and we are to drink of the cup that Jesus drinks of.
We have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The moment the Spirit descended and remained in Jesus at the river Jordan God declared, "this is my beloved Son". The moment Jesus was resurrected he received the Promised Spirit and God declared "this day have I begotten you" which was God's word promised unto a son of David made true.

Jesus as a mortal man was God's only begotten Son, he was the only man to whom God called to righteousness, the only mortal man to have been begotten of God's Spirit without measure. This Son died on the cross, but upon his resurrection he was begotten of God's Spirit again and he was given a body that could not die and here he became a firstborn of many brethren.

Passages that people claim speak of Jesus as pre-existing are often falsely being misinterpreted simply because a clear and simple truth is not applied. God declared the END FROM THE BEGINNING and in that WORD was one man who would execute all His will and bring forth righteousness (Isaiah 46). Before Abraham even existed God's word was for Jesus to be that which Jesus declared of himself, "I AM the resurrection, and the life". I AM the light of the world".

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Jesus is still a man and he is returning in our Father's glory, that glory is that which makes him a Son of God (God's Spirit dwelling in him leading him in all of God's ways), that glory is also him sitting on his father David's throne putting all enemies under foot and making his followers into Sons of God, making them as he is, giving them of the One Spirit to drink of.

The context of Colossians 1 is all about Jesus after he shed his blood and rose from the dead, it's about God's kingdom which is in the new earth. Jesus is being referred to as a firstborn of only one creation in Colossians, the Eternal Creation. God made "all things by (REASON OF HIM) and for him, without him nothing would have been made that was made".

It is obvious that "by" is not "by means of" but rather "by reason of" because to say it is by "means" of is to then make YHVH our Heavenly Father into a liar and render the bible unreliable.

Not so. "By reason of" doesn't make sense. Jehovah created everything by means of His Son, Jesus. That doesn't make the Bible "unreadable!" You have changed the meaning of the verse. Various versions say something different than "by reason of him." The NAB says in verse 16b: "All things were created through him and for him." The ASV says: "All things have been created through him, and unto him." So, clearly, all things were created by Jehovah's power through Jesus, His Son. A footnote in the New American Bible says: "Christ is preeminent and supreme as God's agent in the creation of all things ." Notice that the word "agent" is used to describe Christ in relation to Jehovah God. What is an "agent"? The Illustrated Oxford Dictionary defines it as "a person who acts for another." Therefore, Christ is carrying out the creation for his Father, at his Father's behest. In other words, the creation happened by means of Christ Jesus who acted as his Father's agent.

Your "obvious" "by reason of" doesn't add up.

I think that this last post shows that the Word, Jesus, created all things, because his Father gave him the authority and power to do so. Because the power came from God (Jehovah), it can be said that God is also responsible for the creation. In fact, if power wasn't GIVEN to Jesus to create, nothing would have been created by Jesus. Jesus himself says that he does nothing on his own but whatever he sees the Father doing, he does likewise. (John 5:19) So the creation came into existence through Jesus, by God authorizing him to do so.

[FruitoftheSpirit]

Isaiah 44:24- This is what Jehovah has said, your repurchaser and the former of you from the belly. I Jehovah am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the Earth. Who was with me?

Wait one minute, in your N.W.T., you admit that the Son of God created all (other) things, he being created by the Father. Now you say it was Jehovah that stretched out the heavens and laid the earth. Make up your mind! If Jesus created all other things, then he is Jehovah who stretched out the heavens and laid out the earth.

Myself= the only power source and designer. How do we know this-Because Jesus was involved as well-How?
Gen 1:26--Let US make man in our image-US = more than 1 being--Gen 1:27-HE( 1 being) created--Prov 8:27-28- HE( 1being) created.
So what does US mean then?= Us = Jehovah and his master worker( Prov 8:30)= the one beside God during creation, the one whom God grew especially fond of= his son.
Jesus= The firstborn of all creation--All creation occurred at the beginning--PROOF=Prov 8:22 Possessed me as the beginning of your way( creating). The Hebrew word used for possessed means-created. Thus created direct, first and last, all other things created-THROUGH( John 1:3, Col 1:160) Through = another did the creating).= Jehovah.-)--- things created through Gods master worker. The word only begotten son means monogenes=unique=created direct first and last.
Most religions teach untruth on this matter, but i have presented bible facts on it.
Do you believe the evidence?

You need to get a new Greek to English Lexicon and look up the word "first-born" and see how it is applied to Jesus, compared to how it is applied to men. While you're at it, look up "only begotten" concerning Jesus. Try Thayer's Greek to English dictionary; it will give you the truth, not the nonsense the Watchtower Greek to English shovels out.

monogenes single of its kind, only

Fact, Jesus was the only mortal man to have God's Spirit come to dwell in him without measure (John 3).

Fact, YHVH''s WORD by the prophet Isaiah was that YHVH would place His Spirit within a Son of Man. This man would be called to righteousness and be for a light to both Jews and Gentiles. This man filled with the Spirit would be SENT out to speak God's word of truth, do God's works and deliver captives. Such was all a glory that YHVH promised to give to no other, it was a promise for only one man (Isaiah 42).

Fact, "the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth" (Ephesians 5:9) and one who is born of God having His seed remain in him is righteous not capable of sin (1 John 3).

Fact, 1 Chronicles 17 tells us that First you have a son of David and THEN YHVH our God becomes a Father unto him and promises to settle him into His House and give him an eternal throne.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit....14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil...30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth....33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Did YHVH our God's WORD not become true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth upon him being immersed in water and then receiving God's Spirit where he was then sent being for a light??

How can anyone be so blind to not see that being born of God, being born of the Spirit of God is not the exact same thing as having God's Spirit come to dwell in and remain in you?

We are given that through the Spirit that came to dwell in Jesus he was then sent to speak God's WORD and do God's WORKS and the people beheld the glory of him who was filled with grace and truth. How is it truly not obvious that Jesus being called God's only begotten Son is because of the fact he was the only mortal to have received God's Spirit without measure whereby he was filled with the glory of God's truth for him to then be sent out to speak it?

Jesus is the Son of Man to have been promised to be exalted to God's right hand, he is the Son of Man to whom God promised to settle into His House. How does a man according to Jesus enter into God's kingdom, he must be born of the Spirit right?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and HAVING RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make* thy foes thy footstool.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Further facts,
We are joint heirs with Christ being heirs of God.
We are to be made in the image of the Son.
Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
A man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God's kingdom.
We are to be baptized with the baptism Jesus received and we are to drink of the cup that Jesus drinks of.
We have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The moment the Spirit descended and remained in Jesus at the river Jordan God declared, "this is my beloved Son". The moment Jesus was resurrected he received the Promised Spirit and God declared "this day have I begotten you" which was God's word promised unto a son of David made true.

Jesus as a mortal man was God's only begotten Son, he was the only man to whom God called to righteousness, the only mortal man to have been begotten of God's Spirit without measure. This Son died on the cross, but upon his resurrection he was begotten of God's Spirit again and he was given a body that could not die and here he became a firstborn of many brethren.

Passages that people claim speak of Jesus as pre-existing are often falsely being misinterpreted simply because a clear and simple truth is not applied. God declared the END FROM THE BEGINNING and in that WORD was one man who would execute all His will and bring forth righteousness (Isaiah 46). Before Abraham even existed God's word was for Jesus to be that which Jesus declared of himself, "I AM the resurrection, and the life". I AM the light of the world".

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Jesus is still a man and he is returning in our Father's glory, that glory is that which makes him a Son of God (God's Spirit dwelling in him leading him in all of God's ways), that glory is also him sitting on his father David's throne putting all enemies under foot and making his followers into Sons of God, making them as he is, giving them of the One Spirit to drink of.

The context of Colossians 1 is all about Jesus after he shed his blood and rose from the dead, it's about God's kingdom which is in the new earth. Jesus is being referred to as a firstborn of only one creation in Colossians, the Eternal Creation. God made "all things by (REASON OF HIM) and for him, without him nothing would have been made that was made".

It is obvious that "by" is not "by means of" but rather "by reason of" because to say it is by "means" of is to then make YHVH our Heavenly Father into a liar and render the bible unreliable.

Not so. "By reason of" doesn't make sense. Jehovah created everything by means of His Son, Jesus. That doesn't make the Bible "unreadable!" You have changed the meaning of the verse. Various versions say something different than "by reason of him." The NAB says in verse 16b: "All things were created through him and for him." The ASV says: "All things have been created through him, and unto him." So, clearly, all things were created by Jehovah's power through Jesus, His Son. A footnote in the New American Bible says: "Christ is preeminent and supreme as God's agent in the creation of all things ." Notice that the word "agent" is used to describe Christ in relation to Jehovah God. What is an "agent"? The Illustrated Oxford Dictionary defines it as "a person who acts for another." Therefore, Christ is carrying out the creation for his Father, at his Father's behest. In other words, the creation happened by means of Christ Jesus who acted as his Father's agent.

Your "obvious" "by reason of" doesn't add up.

I think that this last post shows that the Word, Jesus, created all things, because his Father gave him the authority and power to do so. Because the power came from God (Jehovah), it can be said that God is also responsible for the creation. In fact, if power wasn't GIVEN to Jesus to create, nothing would have been created by Jesus. Jesus himself says that he does nothing on his own but whatever he sees the Father doing, he does likewise. (John 5:19) So the creation came into existence through Jesus, by God authorizing him to do so.

Except you have a huge problem that you have not yet addressed.

How do you reconcile the fact that in the OT you have a Creator whose name is YHVH who says that He created all things "alone" and as well he says, "by himself".

Further, this Creator YHVH, says that He will place His Spirit upon a man, call him to righteousness to be for a light, which makes Jesus not the Creator but the promised Messiah of our Creator's word.

YHVH our Creator declared the End from the Beginning where that which was declared from the beginning, even before the world was, was YHVH calling a man to fulfill His will, the very purpose as to why YHVH created all things in the first place. Through/IN this man did YHVH create all things by Himself, YHVH did it by reason of him and for him.

[onewithhim]

You need to get a new Greek to English Lexicon and look up the word "first-born" and see how it is applied to Jesus, compared to how it is applied to men. While you're at it, look up "only begotten" concerning Jesus. Try Thayer's Greek to English dictionary; it will give you the truth, not the nonsense the Watchtower Greek to English shovels out.

monogenes single of its kind, only

Fact, Jesus was the only mortal man to have God's Spirit come to dwell in him without measure (John 3).

Fact, YHVH''s WORD by the prophet Isaiah was that YHVH would place His Spirit within a Son of Man. This man would be called to righteousness and be for a light to both Jews and Gentiles. This man filled with the Spirit would be SENT out to speak God's word of truth, do God's works and deliver captives. Such was all a glory that YHVH promised to give to no other, it was a promise for only one man (Isaiah 42).

Fact, "the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth" (Ephesians 5:9) and one who is born of God having His seed remain in him is righteous not capable of sin (1 John 3).

Fact, 1 Chronicles 17 tells us that First you have a son of David and THEN YHVH our God becomes a Father unto him and promises to settle him into His House and give him an eternal throne.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit....14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil...30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth....33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Did YHVH our God's WORD not become true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth upon him being immersed in water and then receiving God's Spirit where he was then sent being for a light??

How can anyone be so blind to not see that being born of God, being born of the Spirit of God is not the exact same thing as having God's Spirit come to dwell in and remain in you?

We are given that through the Spirit that came to dwell in Jesus he was then sent to speak God's WORD and do God's WORKS and the people beheld the glory of him who was filled with grace and truth. How is it truly not obvious that Jesus being called God's only begotten Son is because of the fact he was the only mortal to have received God's Spirit without measure whereby he was filled with the glory of God's truth for him to then be sent out to speak it?

Jesus is the Son of Man to have been promised to be exalted to God's right hand, he is the Son of Man to whom God promised to settle into His House. How does a man according to Jesus enter into God's kingdom, he must be born of the Spirit right?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and HAVING RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make* thy foes thy footstool.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Further facts,
We are joint heirs with Christ being heirs of God.
We are to be made in the image of the Son.
Those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.
A man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God's kingdom.
We are to be baptized with the baptism Jesus received and we are to drink of the cup that Jesus drinks of.
We have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The moment the Spirit descended and remained in Jesus at the river Jordan God declared, "this is my beloved Son". The moment Jesus was resurrected he received the Promised Spirit and God declared "this day have I begotten you" which was God's word promised unto a son of David made true.

Jesus as a mortal man was God's only begotten Son, he was the only man to whom God called to righteousness, the only mortal man to have been begotten of God's Spirit without measure. This Son died on the cross, but upon his resurrection he was begotten of God's Spirit again and he was given a body that could not die and here he became a firstborn of many brethren.

Passages that people claim speak of Jesus as pre-existing are often falsely being misinterpreted simply because a clear and simple truth is not applied. God declared the END FROM THE BEGINNING and in that WORD was one man who would execute all His will and bring forth righteousness (Isaiah 46). Before Abraham even existed God's word was for Jesus to be that which Jesus declared of himself, "I AM the resurrection, and the life". I AM the light of the world".

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Jesus is still a man and he is returning in our Father's glory, that glory is that which makes him a Son of God (God's Spirit dwelling in him leading him in all of God's ways), that glory is also him sitting on his father David's throne putting all enemies under foot and making his followers into Sons of God, making them as he is, giving them of the One Spirit to drink of.

The context of Colossians 1 is all about Jesus after he shed his blood and rose from the dead, it's about God's kingdom which is in the new earth. Jesus is being referred to as a firstborn of only one creation in Colossians, the Eternal Creation. God made "all things by (REASON OF HIM) and for him, without him nothing would have been made that was made".

It is obvious that "by" is not "by means of" but rather "by reason of" because to say it is by "means" of is to then make YHVH our Heavenly Father into a liar and render the bible unreliable.

Not so. "By reason of" doesn't make sense. Jehovah created everything by means of His Son, Jesus. That doesn't make the Bible "unreadable!" You have changed the meaning of the verse. Various versions say something different than "by reason of him." The NAB says in verse 16b: "All things were created through him and for him." The ASV says: "All things have been created through him, and unto him." So, clearly, all things were created by Jehovah's power through Jesus, His Son. A footnote in the New American Bible says: "Christ is preeminent and supreme as God's agent in the creation of all things ." Notice that the word "agent" is used to describe Christ in relation to Jehovah God. What is an "agent"? The Illustrated Oxford Dictionary defines it as "a person who acts for another." Therefore, Christ is carrying out the creation for his Father, at his Father's behest. In other words, the creation happened by means of Christ Jesus who acted as his Father's agent.

Your "obvious" "by reason of" doesn't add up.

I think that this last post shows that the Word, Jesus, created all things, because his Father gave him the authority and power to do so. Because the power came from God (Jehovah), it can be said that God is also responsible for the creation. In fact, if power wasn't GIVEN to Jesus to create, nothing would have been created by Jesus. Jesus himself says that he does nothing on his own but whatever he sees the Father doing, he does likewise. (John 5:19) So the creation came into existence through Jesus, by God authorizing him to do so.

Except you have a huge problem that you have not yet addressed.

How do you reconcile the fact that in the OT you have a Creator whose name is YHVH who says that He created all things "alone" and as well he says, "by himself".

YHWH (Jehovah) says He created all things because it was His power that he GAVE to the Word, Jesus, to do the actual creating. If Jehovah didn't give Jesus the power and authority, no creating would have been done by Jesus. We can rest assured that Jehovah created through Jesus. And this HAS been addressed. I guess you missed it all.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #4]


I asked in bing search--Which is correct for the Hebrew word at Prov 8:22, possessed or produced--Possessed( created) came up just like i show in this post.

Why used Bing, is it more authoritative than the word of God?
Yes, create is one of the definition of "possessed" but rarely used by word for word Bible translations.

Pro 8:22 “יהוה possessed me, The beginning of His way, As the first of His works of old.

Well the American Standard Version translates that word as "formed," as noted in the margin. Taking into consideration what is in the margin, the verse would read: "Jehovah formed me, the first of his works of old." (Copyright 1901 by Thomas Nelson & Sons)

Are you going to fall back on "he was paraphrasing? or he didn't have any credentials? or some other reason to disregard his translation?

How about the NIV which renders it this way: "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works." Same reasoning as the ASV.

Check out the Revised Standard Version: "The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old." (Translated from the Original tongues, 1881)

The New American Bible: "The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago."

The ESV: "The LORD fathered me at the beginning of his work." Taking into consideration what it says in the margin.

The Message: "God sovereignly made me --the first, the basic--before he did anything else. I was brought into being a long time ago, well before the earth got its start."

If you interpret that way, you just made a contradiction to the next verse, "From eternity I was established."

(NASB) Pro 8:23 “From eternity I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

[FruitoftheSpirit]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #63]

Thanks for your reply!

I don't think I have missed anything that has been presented on this thread by you or others to where I have missed having been proven to be in error. Neither have I missed that which has been presented to me on another forum where I have debated this topic for more than a decade. I am looking for a good and respectable debate. I believe in the sum of all scripture where there can be no contradictions and God's truth is most definitely going to make perfect sense. Translations certainly can make things a challenge and it's great to see people on this forum using a lexicon.

You said, "YHWH (Jehovah) says He created all things because it was His power that he GAVE to the Word, Jesus, to do the actual creating. If Jehovah didn't give Jesus the power and authority, no creating would have been done by Jesus. We can rest assured that Jehovah created through Jesus. And this HAS been addressed. I guess you missed it all."

You have given me your conclusion from your interpretations however they contradict other passages, ones that need no interpretation.

Isaiah 44: 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

The words of the prophet Isaiah were fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, where Jesus is a servant to He who had created all things ALONE/BY HIMSELF.

Never interpret any passage without holding deeply in mind one clear simple truth, YHVH our Heavenly Father declared the End from the beginning and in that which He declared was the calling of one man to execute His will to which includes bringing forth righteousness and salvation.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Acts 13: 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

What was also With God from the beginning?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

YHVH our Heavenly Father we are told created heaven and earth BY Himself, ALONE and He created it for the purpose that it be inhabited. From the foundation of the world a Son of Man with the Father’s glory was to inherit the earth as a king of kings and as a firstborn of many brethren.

Colossians 1: 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit. 9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1 is all about God’s will that He had declared from the beginning. It is all in the context of he who had been raised from the dead after having shed his blood. There is only one Creation that is being spoken of in Colossians 1, the Creation that holds the Son’s kingdom and the hope of the people. The Creation being spoken of in verse 15 is that Creation to which Jesus is the firstborn of.

The man exalted to God’s right hand given the promised Spirit and a body that can no longer die, is he who exists in the image of the invisible God and all things that were made by God were done so in Jesus, by reason of him and for him.

By – en –in for in him were all things created
By – dia- by reason of him and for him

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

God created David’s throne, God sits Jesus upon it and makes him a king of kings. YHVH our God is mindful of a man and He made him to have dominion overall the earth. YHVH makes Jesus powerful and a righteous judge through YHVH’s Spirit living in him.

YHVH our God made all things IN/THROUGH the man to whom He promised would come and execute His will. Nothing would have been made by YHVH without that which YHVH would accomplish through this Son of Man, this is exactly why we are told that all things consist in him.

It is the Son of Man who returns in the glory of YHVH our Father where he will sit on his father David’s throne and rule in righteousness through YHVH's Spirit that dwells in him, where he will judge the world in that righteousness and give the faithful the Spirit of YHVH so that they can be made as he is, a human who walks in all of YHVH’s ways and has eternal life.

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

He who is before all things and he to which all things consist is he who is firstborn of the dead.

“he might have preeminence- COME TO HOLD FIRST PLACE, first place in that which was YHVH’s purpose for having created all things in the first place all that which would come to a New Heaven and a New Earth with man walking in all of YHVH's ways, with YHVH our God being ALL IN ALL.

Nothing would have been created without the Son of Man to whom God would place His Spirit upon and bring forth reconciliation. As Romans 5 tells us, one man brought sin and death and another man brings righteousness and life. In this man did YHVH create all things and He did so by reason of him and for him.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #4]


I asked in bing search--Which is correct for the Hebrew word at Prov 8:22, possessed or produced--Possessed( created) came up just like i show in this post.

Why used Bing, is it more authoritative than the word of God?
Yes, create is one of the definition of "possessed" but rarely used by word for word Bible translations.

Pro 8:22 “יהוה possessed me, The beginning of His way, As the first of His works of old.

Well the American Standard Version translates that word as "formed," as noted in the margin. Taking into consideration what is in the margin, the verse would read: "Jehovah formed me, the first of his works of old." (Copyright 1901 by Thomas Nelson & Sons)

Are you going to fall back on "he was paraphrasing? or he didn't have any credentials? or some other reason to disregard his translation?

How about the NIV which renders it this way: "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works." Same reasoning as the ASV.

Check out the Revised Standard Version: "The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old." (Translated from the Original tongues, 1881)

The New American Bible: "The LORD begot me, the firstborn of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago."

The ESV: "The LORD fathered me at the beginning of his work." Taking into consideration what it says in the margin.

The Message: "God sovereignly made me --the first, the basic--before he did anything else. I was brought into being a long time ago, well before the earth got its start."

If you interpret that way, you just made a contradiction to the next verse, "From eternity I was established."

(NASB) Pro 8:23 “From eternity I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.

No, not at all. The NASB brings out that the Master Worker was established "from the earliest times of the earth." It seems to contradict the other part of the verse, but it doesn't. "From eternity" can mean an undisclosed period of time that stretches back perhaps billions of years.

[FruitoftheSpirit]

Isaiah 44:24- This is what Jehovah has said, your repurchaser and the former of you from the belly. I Jehovah am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the Earth. Who was with me?

Myself= the only power source and designer. How do we know this-Because Jesus was involved as well-How?
Gen 1:26--Let US make man in our image-US = more than 1 being--Gen 1:27-HE( 1 being) created--Prov 8:27-28- HE( 1being) created.
So what does US mean then?= Us = Jehovah and his master worker( Prov 8:30)= the one beside God during creation, the one whom God grew especially fond of= his son.
Jesus= The firstborn of all creation--All creation occurred at the beginning--PROOF=Prov 8:22 Possessed me as the beginning of your way( creating). The Hebrew word used for possessed means-created. Thus created direct, first and last, all other things created-THROUGH( John 1:3, Col 1:160) Through = another did the creating).= Jehovah.-)--- things created through Gods master worker. The word only begotten son means monogenes=unique=created direct first and last.
Most religions teach untruth on this matter, but i have presented bible facts on it.
Do you believe the evidence?

I believe you provided serious misunderstanding.

Jesus didn't pre-exist as Wisdom, Wisdom is of YHVH's Spirit and it came to dwell in Jesus of Nazareth.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

This prophecy has not yet been fulfilled where we are given that a man has the Spirit of Wisdom to which is of YHVH dwelling in him. Jesus was indeed raised from the dead and exalted to God's right hand having received the Promised Spirit (Acts 2). This Son of Man who God also had declared upon his resurrection, "this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13), is returning in the glory of his Father where he will judge and reward through the Father's righteousness, through the Father's Spirit that dwells in him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The glory of his Father that the Son of Man comes in is no doubt the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge that dwells in him. What could "being begotten by God" possibly mean other than having His Spirit dwelling in you? Honest question, are we not to be made in the image of the Son according to Paul and does Paul not say that God's Sons are those that are led by the Spirit of God? Is not Isaiah 11 speaking of a man who is being led by God's Spirit through having it dwell in him to which then would make him a Son?


Jesus did not pre-exist as Wisdom, Jesus is the Son of Man returning who has YHVH His Father's Spirit of Wisdom dwelling in him.

Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man....10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Jesus didn't pre-exist as Wisdom, Jesus was IN THE WORD OF GOD from the beginning as a Son of Man who would have God's Spirit upon him and would be a Wise and Righteous king through that Spirit.

John 1 and Colossians 1 don't speak giving us detail to how it was that Jesus is our Creator, quite the contrary, they speak giving us detail to why it would be that God had created all things by reason of him and for him and why God would have all things consist in him.

Don't you realize that? Read the chapters, do they not give us understanding to why it would be that all things would have been created by reason of him and for him? They speak of Jesus as the prophesied light of Isaiah where a man has been called to righteousness where those that believe in him he gives power to be Sons of God, to become born of God. It speaks to him as the promised Messiah having God's Spirit come to dwell in him (which is literally God's word from Isaiah being made true in the flesh), it speaks to his coming kingdom and our hope for that kingdom, the kingdom of God in the New Earth which he who shed his blood is the firstborn of. It speaks to him bringing forth reconciliation by the shedding of his blood, where nothing would have been created without him accomplishing justification for our life, now would it??

As I have stated elsewhere, look at the context of Colossians 1 leading up to verse 15, it speaks of God's will, it speaks of our hope and patience for the kingdom of the Son, which is in the New Earth, it is speaking of he who shed his blood to which we know was soon later resurrected. Colossians 1 is speaking of only One Creation, not two, the context prior to verse 15 clearly indicates the Creation that Paul is referencing in verse 15 and he continues to speak regarding that same Creation.

Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, which is of God's Spirit just as Understanding, Council and Might and Knowledge are.

What makes a man into God's image if it is not His Spirit dwelling in man? Surely the "us" in Genesis represents the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, the Spirit of Council and Might, and the Spirit of Knowledge. These are all of God and thus why ultimately we read that it was God creating man in his own image.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

He who shed his blood was raised from the dead receiving the Promised Spirit where he became a firstborn of many. His flesh was not allowed to see decay and it was changed into a body that can no longer die. This resurrected eternal man with God's Spirit dwelling in him is he who exists in the image of the invisible God. As "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" we know that God had created all things by reason of this man and for this man, to whom God as He had promised unto David concerning one of his sons, He would become a Father to him and He would settle him into His House and He would give him an eternal throne.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus didn't create all things doing so for himself. Jesus did not create the throne of David for himself. YHVH created all things IN Jesus, by reason of him and for him including the throne of David.

Isaiah 42 tells us that Jesus is not the Creator, quite the contrary we are given that he is of the Creation, he is one of the people to whom the Creator gives the breath of life to and a spirit to walk therein. He is a man to whom the Creator calls to righteousness to be for a light. He is a man to whom the Creator chose out of the people to give a glory to that is for him alone.

[servant1]

[Replying to FruitoftheSpirit in post #67]


I didn't say Jesus existed as wisdom, Prov 8= wisdom personified=The firstborn of all creation=Gods master worker( Prov 8:30) = the one who was beside God during creation=Jesus. Possessed=Created me as the beginning of your way( creating)- It cant be wisdom being created wisdom had to already exist for God to create. How could he create if he didn't have wisdom already?