Did he or didn't he?

[Athetotheist]

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)

How exactly are these to be reconciled?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #189]

Two Persons: God creating all things in the beginning, and the Word watching all things from the beginning. So soon as the Word knows by watching today, God knows in the beginning.

That doesn't solve the problem of God simultaneously knowing and not knowing what we will do before we do it. When you said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it

you dug yourself into a hole you can't dig yourself out of.

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
(Matthew 8:8-10)

He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. He was amazed at their lack of faith.
(Mark 6:5-6)

If Jesus observed from the beginning that the centurion in Matthew would have such faith and that the people in Mark wouldn't, why is he amazed when they have those reactions?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #190]

God is not omniscient because of the Persons of the Godhead; He is both in the beginning of creation, and watching unto the end.

Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

What the Word sees He testifies, and the Creator knows in the beginning.

Then your statement that

he does not know what we will do, until we do it

cannot be correct.


The problem is that you still have God's knowledge of what we will do dependent on the Word observing what we do.

Wrongly put again: He knows what we do dependent on observing what we do. He will know what we do dependent on observing what we will do.

That's essentially repeating what I said.

The mystery is that the omniscient God, who does know all things from the beginning unto the end, does not already predetermine what every person will do from cradle to grave.

Here you're muddying the water by throwing in predetermination. It's not about predetermining what will happen; it's about just knowing what will happen.

And "mystery" is a convenient word. "Mystery" can explain how the gods of Olympus can dwell in their mountaintop abode unobserved by mortals. After all----they're gods.

(Not that I don't believe in mysteries; I do, as my signature indicates. But I also believe in evaluating mysteries with due measure of reason.)

The mystery of God is to know all things from the beginning, because He observes all things from the beginning unto the end.

the foreknowledge is only by perfect observance and true testimony of Christ the Word.

Let me see if I understand this:

God knows all things from the beginning, but doesn't know what we will do until we do it.

Jesus observes what we do when we do it, and that makes God aware of what we did before we did it even though he didn't know what we would do until we did it.

At the same time, Jesus observes us doing what we will do before we do it, which means that he observes what we do before he is able to observe it because it hasn't been done yet [although it doesn't matter that it hasn't been done yet because he has already observed us doing what we haven't done yet].

You're making the eternal knowledge of a timeless deity dependent on the observations of a man [Jesus] who could observe things happening only in linear time, and those perspectives don't mesh.


So when Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Jesus three times, God cannot know that from the beginning because knowledge of it from the beginning depends on Jesus observing it, and Jesus hasn't observed it yet because Peter hasn't done it yet.

Unless of course the Word has already observed all things come to pass from beginning to end

Then----again----why is Jesus amazed by the centurion's belief in Matthew 8 and the people's unbelief in Mark 6, indicating that he did not expect those reactions?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #189]

Two Persons: God creating all things in the beginning, and the Word watching all things from the beginning. So soon as the Word knows by watching today, God knows in the beginning.

That doesn't solve the problem of God simultaneously knowing and not knowing what we will do before we do it. When you said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it

you dug yourself into a hole you can't dig yourself out of.

You can avoid the response given, which is no matter. I loved writing it. A Scriptural thing of beauty.

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
(Matthew 8:8-10)

He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. He was amazed at their lack of faith.
(Mark 6:5-6)

If Jesus observed from the beginning that the centurion in Matthew would have such faith and that the people in Mark wouldn't, why is he amazed when they have those reactions?

So, you're never heard of knowing something by observed fact, and then actually knowing it by firsthand experience...It's called firsthand knowledge.

Your continued problem with surface reading, is not only an unwillingness to study, but it also never considers practical examples of life on earth.

Even the myths were highly regarded for some practical lessons in life...

And, the Word didn't observe anything in the beginning, but only His own works of creation:

Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day...And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.


The Word then observes from above all the works done on earth, whensoever they are done.

And when the Word was made flesh, Jesus Christ observed firsthand as a man, those works that He had only seen from above. Though he knew them by sight, He was amazed by them in the flesh...

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #193]

That doesn't solve the problem of God simultaneously knowing and not knowing what we will do before we do it. When you said that

God sees the thoughts and intents of the heart, whether for the good or evil. But he does not know what we will do, until we do it

you dug yourself into a hole you can't dig yourself out of.

You can avoid the response given, which is no matter. I loved writing it. A Scriptural thing of beauty.

Apparently, you can't admit that you were forced to walk this back.

So, you're never heard of knowing something by observed fact, and then actually knowing it by firsthand experience...It's called firsthand knowledge.

The only way to have firsthand experience of an observed fact is to observe the fact when it happens. Before that it's not observed, and before it's observed the experience isn't firsthand.

And, the Word didn't observe anything in the beginning, but only His own works of creation:

Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day...And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Then the Word didn't observe in the beginning that Peter would deny him.

The Word then observes from above all the works done on earth, whensoever they are done.

But you just said that the Word didn't observe anything in the beginning, but only His own works of creation.

And when the Word was made flesh, Jesus Christ observed firsthand as a man, those works that He had only seen from above. Though he knew them by sight, He was amazed by them in the flesh...

The text says that he was amazed when he heard it. Hearing it wouldn't amaze him if he knew that it was coming.

You're saying, "Even though it didn't happen that way, it did happen that way" and wrapping it in the Appeal to Flowery Language fallacy.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #190]

God is not omniscient because of the Persons of the Godhead; He is both in the beginning of creation, and watching unto the end.

Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

What the Word sees He testifies, and the Creator knows in the beginning.

Then your statement that

he does not know what we will do, until we do it

cannot be correct.

God in the beginning does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it. And, His Word has observed at once all things we will do, and so God in the beginning knows all things we will do. And yet, He still does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it.

Rev 19:10
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now this is what we know from all Scripture taken together, and the only secret is how God does know all works from the beginning, and yet still does not know the works, until He observes them.

That secret is answered by the mystery of the Godhead, that is hidden from the foundation of the world, and now revealed to them that believe His words:

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

The problem is that you still have God's knowledge of what we will do dependent on the Word observing what we do.

Wrongly put again: He knows what we do dependent on observing what we do. He will know what we do dependent on observing what we will do.

That's essentially repeating what I said.

Yet making all the difference. You still speak of God bound as though by temporal time as we, which is why you also think His Word is a time traveler, travelling forth and back in time to report to God in the beginning.

So soon as the Word sees a work done on earth, God in the beginning knows by His testimony of present observation. And the Word has seen all works done on earth in a single span of time, and so God in the beginning also knows by His testimony of all sight.

And yet, even now, God in the beginning does not know our works, until His Word watches us doing them. The mystery declares one sure things, that we must all acknowledge: That we remain free will people with power to choose to do good or evil, and God remains the righteous Judge, who only judges every man by his work done, not only by foreseeing them. God judges every person in person by works done, not impersonally from afar...

Job 13:3
Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God.

Job 9:32
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

With God, every person will see their Judge in person.

It's another difference between knowledge by observation only, and firsthand knowledge by experience...

The mystery is that the omniscient God, who does know all things from the beginning unto the end, does not already predetermine what every person will do from cradle to grave.

Here you're muddying the water by throwing in predetermination. It's not about predetermining what will happen; it's about just knowing what will happen.

You're just understandably showing ignorance of false Christian teachings. Predetermination has everything to do with foreknowledge: Foreknowledge by observation counters foreknowledge by predetermination.

Without knowledge by observation, then we have no free will to choose our own works, but are bound by the pagan Fates, to only do what is predetermined and known.

That's why some Christians want predeterminism, so that they can't be justly judged by their works, that God Himself has predetermined them to do. Whether good or evil, they're only doing God's expressed will...

Rom 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


James answers with man's own power of free will to seek the good or lust for the evil:

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

And "mystery" is a convenient word. "Mystery" can explain how the gods of Olympus can dwell in their mountaintop abode unobserved by mortals. After all----they're gods.

True. And yet Scripture calls the Godhead a mystery. The Bible never says God's not a mystery, especially not the Godhead. Not all mystery is mythological foolishness.

2Pe 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(Not that I don't believe in mysteries; I do, as my signature indicates. But I also believe in evaluating mysteries with due measure of reason.)

Which is why I'm showing the mystery of God's omniscience by His Godhead. Which you are understanding in part, but not all. And of course, only in part enough to claim contradiction...

In any case, Though there's still a certain mystery in it to me, I do understand it makes perfect sense: the everlasting God high above all things of heaven and earth, and yet also lived in the flesh on earth, and now dwells in mortal bodies of His people on earth.

Deu 29:29
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever.

He still has His secret here, that I don't understand, but if not revealed now, then after the grave. For instance, as you also object: How can the God who knows all works in the beginning, by observation of all works in a span of time, and yet still not know the works not yet done, until He observes them being done?

It's not a simple He does know, and He doesn't know. But the context is that He does know, because He has seen, and He does not know, until He personally observes. As in coming down to see for Himself personally what they do at Babel.

I believe it may have to do with God hiding knowledge from Himself, that He only must know for judgment of works. We know He hides certain knowledge of the past, when forgiving and forgetting all sins and trespasses by repentance. As well as no longer knowing the names of the righteous, that turn from His righteousness to do evil again.

It probably also has to do with knowledge by sight, and firsthand knowledge by experience...Why don't you ask the Spirit of truth for me, and see what he says. God reveals true things to any honest seeker. Even if just an objective exercise of understanding.

The mystery of God is to know all things from the beginning, because He observes all things from the beginning unto the end.

the foreknowledge is only by perfect observance and true testimony of Christ the Word.

Let me see if I understand this:

God knows all things from the beginning, but doesn't know what we will do until we do it.

Got it. Given Scripture for it.

Jesus observes what we do when we do it,

Correct. The Word always does so, especially with His churches:

Rev 2:2 I know thy works... Rev 2:9 I know thy works... Rev 2:13 I know thy works... Rev 2:19 I know thy works... Rev 3:1 I know thy works... Rev 3:8 I know thy works... Rev 3:15 I know thy works...

and that makes God aware of what we did before we did it

Not quite. God in the beginning knows what the Word testifies, as soon as He personally observes the works done. And yet, the Word has seen all works done in a span of time, and so God knows them all in the beginning:

Isa 40:21
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

He is observing all works being done.

Psa 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Job 28:24
For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

He has observed all works that will be done as in a single watch.

Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isa 42:9
Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

He knows all the works observed and declares them all from the beginning to end.

even though he didn't know what we would do until we did it.

You got it. Good work. Now ask the true Spirit: How then does he know all works to come by sight, and still does not know works to come, until he observes them done?

It's the mystery of the eternal, that now must also include the temporal by creation of heaven and earth...The God who knew no time passing from everlasting to everlasting, that he now observes time passing from moment to moment by creation of naturally temporal heaven and earth.

At the same time, Jesus observes us doing what we will do before we do it, which means that he observes what we do before he is able to observe it because it hasn't been done yet [although it doesn't matter that it hasn't been done yet because he has already observed us doing what we haven't done yet].

Well said! Now if only you would search and find the answer from the Spirit of God Himself! He's not a respecter of persons, when giving wisdom to them that ask, so long as by faith in the answer.

Jas 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.


However, a few little tweeks first: In a span of time, the Word has seen all works that will be done. Yet, he must still watch the works done at the time. Seeing what works will be done, though the works must still be done to be observed. And so, He doesn't observe before He is able to observe, but rather sees to the end, and observes it at the time.

It's like seeing all the clouds coming from the horizon, and then seeing them as they come above. He sees them before, and sees them when done. That is once again knowledge by observation from afar, and then firsthand knowledge by experience up close and personal.

When He prophesied coming again with clouds, he had seen His coming beforehand; but not until He comes again in Person, will He see the clouds at his coming, up close and personal.

You're making the eternal knowledge of a timeless deity dependent on the observations of a man [Jesus] who could observe things happening only in linear time, and those perspectives don't mesh.

You were doing good, but unbelief in the God and the Godhead makes you forget the Word watching all things from on high, that are being done as they come to pass. Including when the Word was made flesh, and yet watching from above by the Father on high:

Jhn 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

While the Word was not watching from on high on the circle of the earth, because He was Jesus Christ come in the flesh, His Father was on high watching all works coming to pass on earth, especially those of His own dear Son.

Once again, what may be impossible for a God of one Person, is certainly possible for the God of three Persons. We haven't even brought in the Spirit into all these things. Afterall, the Word testifies all these things to the Father by the Spirit:

Rev 19:10
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The answer to the mystery that remains, lies not in God and the Word only, but in God the Father, the Word, and the Spirit.

1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

So when Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Jesus three times, God cannot know that from the beginning because knowledge of it from the beginning depends on Jesus observing it, and Jesus hasn't observed it yet because Peter hasn't done it yet.

Unless of course the Word has already observed all things come to pass from beginning to end

Then----again----why is Jesus amazed by the centurion's belief in Matthew 8 and the people's unbelief in Mark 6, indicating that he did not expect those reactions?

Didn't i answer that difference between knowledge of fact, and firsthand knowledge of experience?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #195]

God in the beginning does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it. And, His Word has observed at once all things we will do, and so God in the beginning knows all things we will do. And yet, He still does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it.

That's an absolutely Orwellian level of doublethink.

Now this is what we know from all Scripture taken together, and the only secret is how God does know all works from the beginning, and yet still does not know the works, until He observes them.

That secret is answered by the mystery of the Godhead, that is hidden from the foundation of the world, and now revealed to them that believe His words

No, there's also the secret of how the gods of Olympus dwell in their mountaintop abode unobserved by mortals.

That secret is answered by the mystery of the gods, that is hidden from the rising of the world out of Chaos, and now revealed to them that believe their story.

You're just understandably showing ignorance of false Christian teachings. Predetermination has everything to do with foreknowledge: Foreknowledge by observation counters foreknowledge by predetermination.

Foreknowledge shows what will happen. Predetermination decides what will happen. They're not the same.

The Bible never says God's not a mystery, especially not the Godhead. Not all mystery is mythological foolishness.

Nor does offhand dismissal of a mystery make it mythological foolishness.


(Not that I don't believe in mysteries; I do, as my signature indicates. But I also believe in evaluating mysteries with due measure of reason.)

Which is why I'm showing the mystery of God's omniscience by His Godhead. Which you are understanding in part, but not all.

And you presume enough wisdom to be a teacher to all who disagree with you.

It's not a simple He does know, and He doesn't know. But the context is that He does know, because He has seen, and He does not know, until He personally observes. As in coming down to see for Himself personally what they do at Babel.

Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
(Genesis 18:20-21)

Here the text clearly has Yahweh's knowledge of an earthly matter entirely contingent upon his coming down to see it in response to what he has heard----but has not seen. This passage clearly states that he does not "know all works from the beginning". Nothing about him seeing it from the beginning, because he doesn't. Nothing about the Word observing it from the beginning, because he hasn't. Yahweh has to see it for himself----before he knows. It's right there in the text.

Those are the literal words.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #193]

So, you're never heard of knowing something by observed fact, and then actually knowing it by firsthand experience...It's called firsthand knowledge.

The only way to have firsthand experience of an observed fact is to observe the fact when it happens. Before that it's not observed, and before it's observed the experience isn't firsthand.

I've already explained the obvious.

As I said. Superficial readers only seeking fault refuse to acknowledge practical life. They think their blocked intellectualizing is reality.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #195]

God in the beginning does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it. And, His Word has observed at once all things we will do, and so God in the beginning knows all things we will do. And yet, He still does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it.

That's an absolutely Orwellian level of doublethink.

Or, the Scripture's mystery of God's knowledge of all works to come, and yet not knowing judging any man until the works are done.

Orwell was excellent at discerning man's doublethink, not the Godhead's mystery from beginning to end.

In any case, your dodging the challenge is unfortunate, but typical. I was hoping you'd finally use that intellect for something useful, rather than just declaring fault.

I'll continue to search the answer to the mystery. If it can be found in this life, Scripture will show it. So thanks for the prodding.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #198]

your dodging the challenge is unfortunate, but typical.

Before you accuse me of dodging a challenge, address my last response in post #196.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #198]

your dodging the challenge is unfortunate, but typical.

Before you accuse me of dodging a challenge, address my last response in post #196.

[Replying to RBD in post #195]

God in the beginning does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it. And, His Word has observed at once all things we will do, and so God in the beginning knows all things we will do. And yet, He still does not know what we will do, until His Word observes us doing it.

That's an absolutely Orwellian level of doublethink.

Now this is what we know from all Scripture taken together, and the only secret is how God does know all works from the beginning, and yet still does not know the works, until He observes them.

That secret is answered by the mystery of the Godhead, that is hidden from the foundation of the world, and now revealed to them that believe His words

No, there's also the secret of how the gods of Olympus dwell in their mountaintop abode unobserved by mortals.

That secret is answered by the mystery of the gods, that is hidden from the rising of the world out of Chaos, and now revealed to them that believe their story.

Your dodging the challenge is unfortunate, but typical. I was hoping you'd finally use that intellect for something useful, rather than just declaring fault.