Is the bible the word of God

[daylight]

I found this debate on youtube, very nice and interesting. It is a debate itself, but the good thing is that we can even debate about the outcome or the topic. The debate is whether the Bible is the world of God or not. The debate is divided in the following order.

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it looks like too much, but they are in sequence and each link is only about 5 minutes. Hope to read your comments.[/url]

[Biker]

(2 Chronicles 9:25)

" And Solomon had FOUR thousand stalls for horses and chariots,and twelve thousand horsemen;Whom he bestowed in the chariot cities,and with the king at Jerusalem "

(1 Kings 4:26)

" And Solomon had FORTY thousand stalls of horses for his chariots,and twelve thousand horsemen "

That only a 1000% contradiction ! some would argue that its a ZERO mistake. The Zero was not discovered at that time !!!

" Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses, and twelve thousand horses." 1Kings 4:26 NIV.
" Solomon accumulated chariots and horses; he had fourteen hundred chariots and twelve thousand horses," 1 Kings 10:26 NIV.
"Solomon accumulated chariots and horses; he had fourteen hundred chariots and twelve thousand horses," 2 Chron. 1:14 NIV.
" Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horses," 2 Chron. 9:26. NIV.
Since Solomon had 1,400 chariots (1 Kings 10:26; 2 Ch. 1:14), his stables included stalls for 2,800 chariot horses (two for each chariot), with additional stalls for 1,200 horses. By way of comparison, an Assyrian account of the battle of Qarqar in 853 B.C. (about 100 years after Solomon) speaks of 1,200 chariots from Damascus, 700 chariots from Hamath and 2,000 chariots from Israel (the northern kingdom).

So, I don't see a problem? It is very clear. Even in the most mundane details.

Biker

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the context of both passages. In both chapter 4 of I Kings and Chapter 9 of II CHronicles, a culminating description of Solomon's reign is being given. These are summaries of his whole tenure as King. Thus, the numbers given would have been the 'last' numbers or the greatest numbers that had occurred during his reign.

There is no evidence to support Biker's assertion that there is a difference in time or an accumulation of horses or stalls between the two passages. THis is merely speculation on the part of Biker, and speculation that does not square with the context of the passages.

Biker didn't assert anything or speculate anything but quoted Scripture and additionally an historical account of a battle 100 years later.
I might add that even in the most insignificant of details the Bible proves to be factual in all it talks about.

Biker

[Biker]

(2 Chronicles 9:25)

" And Solomon had FOUR thousand stalls for horses and chariots,and twelve thousand horsemen;Whom he bestowed in the chariot cities,and with the king at Jerusalem "

(1 Kings 4:26)

" And Solomon had FORTY thousand stalls of horses for his chariots,and twelve thousand horsemen "

That only a 1000% contradiction ! some would argue that its a ZERO mistake. The Zero was not discovered at that time !!!

" Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses, and twelve thousand horses." 1Kings 4:26 NIV.
" Solomon accumulated chariots and horses; he had fourteen hundred chariots and twelve thousand horses," 1 Kings 10:26 NIV.
"Solomon accumulated chariots and horses; he had fourteen hundred chariots and twelve thousand horses," 2 Chron. 1:14 NIV.
" Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horses," 2 Chron. 9:26. NIV.
Since Solomon had 1,400 chariots (1 Kings 10:26; 2 Ch. 1:14), his stables included stalls for 2,800 chariot horses (two for each chariot), with additional stalls for 1,200 horses. By way of comparison, an Assyrian account of the battle of Qarqar in 853 B.C. (about 100 years after Solomon) speaks of 1,200 chariots from Damascus, 700 chariots from Hamath and 2,000 chariots from Israel (the northern kingdom).

So, I don't see a problem? It is very clear. Even in the most mundane details.

Biker

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the context of both passages. In both chapter 4 of I Kings and Chapter 9 of II CHronicles, a culminating description of Solomon's reign is being given. These are summaries of his whole tenure as King. Thus, the numbers given would have been the 'last' numbers or the greatest numbers that had occurred during his reign.

There is no evidence to support Biker's assertion that there is a difference in time or an accumulation of horses or stalls between the two passages. THis is merely speculation on the part of Biker, and speculation that does not square with the context of the passages.

True it is nothing more then someone's speculation that Biker provided but I hardly think that is the major flaw behind his “thinking” even if he lack reasons for his, or someone's, speculation and no evidence why it would be as he suggests, except his blanket claim there are not contradictions or errors because he says it is inerrant and infallible. The key is in his statement and is very telling of his bias or disposition, “ So, I don't see a problem?”. That is the problem is he is unable to see “any problems”, even with the “mundane”. Solomon's horses and chariots are not the only problem between the accounts in I & II Kings and and I & II Chronicles. They were written at different times by differing groups with different biases and propaganda eve if they say they are telling the same story neither one seem historical but rather represents the times they were written while Kings seems t have been meant to have been replaced by Chronicles as it is a pious rework of Kings. The list of contradictions is much longer the Biker refuses to admit or see.

This is nothing but pure speculation.
I provided 4 Scriptures all saying the same thing about an insignificant detail backed by an historical Assyrian account. Mind you that it is around 3,000 years ago and accurate in fact and you still have nothing to refute it except the ramblings and wishful thinking of a sophist.
What do you have that is actually conclusive to refute the historically accurate account?
I'm waiting?

Biker

[Biker]

Old books divide us......

find God instead in the needs of others...not in your ritual practices.

stop prayer and take actions.

I'll tell you what, since you brought it up, tell me what you accomplished today "finding God in the needs of others"?
And then I'll tell you what I accomplished.
What "ritual practices" are you referring to? I don't do any!
"take actions" I'll tell you what, tell me what you accomplished meeting "the needs of others" in the past month, and I'll tell you what I have accomplished.
Time to put your money where your mouth is!

Biker

[Flail]

in typical Christian Anti-Christ fashion we want others to know what we have done...to look good ....which is why we go to Church....use bumper stickers and necklaces and ornaments and rituals.

as Jesus taught, Righteous conduct is doing what is good from the heart, expecting no reward,no blessing,no recognition...simply because it is the right thing to do..."don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing"..also see 'Good Samaritan Parable"...pray or ritualize if you will but do it as Jesus said.... alone in secret...then your motives will be clear.

Selfish Righteousness(evil) produces conduct in expectation of reward and blessing..me me me....wanting something in return...recognition and reward...it also tends to produce conduct based upon fear of violating rules and moral codes..displeasing God...which then leads to ritual practice and religion and notions of 'chosen people' and memberships.....which then leads to violence and war....

it is much easier to be Religious and be thought of as 'good' than to be truly righteous.....

[Zzyzx]

.

I'll tell you what, tell me what you accomplished meeting "the needs of others" in the past month, and I'll tell you what I have accomplished.

Mr. Biker – I will take your challenge. “Time to put your money where your mouth is!”

Here is what my wife and I have done in the past month – similar to what we do every month.

I am at the moment taking a break from splitting firewood, with a maul, to be given to people in need. My wife and I cut the wood during this past week clearing storm damage (at no charge). Many elderly people in the Bible Belt heat with wood and some are no longer able to supply their own. Some single mothers are also in need. We show no partiality regarding religion or lack thereof and we decline offers of payment – but do not object to offers of “prayers” on our behalf if that makes people feel better.

Yesterday we took our truck and big flatbed trailer to the local food bank to haul away “stuff” that had accumulated via donations over the years and was occupying space needed for handling food. Later today we will dump the load (a big load) by hand at a friend’s property at no charge to the food bank.

Every week we spend part of at least one day helping in a warehouse where groceries are provided for needy people. We are also available to help with special projects. The Food Bank is run by people promoting Christianity. We consider the cause worthy and therefore cooperate with them and fit right in. Most of our fellow volunteers are good people and NONE attempt to proselytize. We all work hard to accomplish the task at hand (providing groceries for about 700 to 1000 people every week) and don’t discuss belief systems.

My wife and I also do volunteer work at least three days per week helping the Forest Service provide services to the American public. We are on call 24/7 if necessary to help with emergency projects and safety issues.

I would estimate that we spend a minimum of twenty hours each per week PLUS using our own equipment and often supplies to help others on a volunteer basis. I suspect the total averages well over two hundred hours per month (with skills to actually accomplish what is needed). We also occasionally donate money where we know it will be used to actually help others with none going to support a hierarchy – though our income does not allow large dollar contributions, in percentage of income it is probably respectable.

We do these things NOT to impress others, to gain favor with “gods” or to “show others the way”. We do them because we feel it is right to share what we have with others. Most of what we have to share is enthusiasm, energy, tools and equipment, good will, time, and ability to “get the job done” without supervision.

Notice that we are Non-Theists. Our motivation is NOT provided by any religion or by any desire to achieve personal benefits in this life or in a supposed “afterlife”.

You were saying . . . . . .

[Flail]

Zzyx

Well stated....well done. We are all in this together.

as the poet said.

"Lives of great men all remind us, you can make your life sublime
and departing, leave behind us footprints on the sands of time.
Footprints, that perhaps another, sailing o'er life's solemn main,
a forlorned and shipwrecked brother, seeing may take heart again.

So let's all be up and doing, with a heart for any fate.
Still pursuing, still achieving
Learn to labor and to wait."

what foot prints will we leave?...or will we choose to follow the herd? ...and step in what they leave behind?

[Biker]

in typical Christian Anti-Christ fashion we want others to know what we have done...to look good ....which is why we go to Church....use bumper stickers and necklaces and ornaments and rituals.

as Jesus taught, Righteous conduct is doing what is good from the heart, expecting no reward,no blessing,no recognition...simply because it is the right thing to do..."don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing"..also see 'Good Samaritan Parable"...pray or ritualize if you will but do it as Jesus said.... alone in secret...then your motives will be clear.

Selfish Righteousness(evil) produces conduct in expectation of reward and blessing..me me me....wanting something in return...recognition and reward...it also tends to produce conduct based upon fear of violating rules and moral codes..displeasing God...which then leads to ritual practice and religion and notions of 'chosen people' and memberships.....which then leads to violence and war....

it is much easier to be Religious and be thought of as 'good' than to be truly righteous.....

Just as I thought, you haven't done anything. You just want to ridicule those who do.

Biker

[Flail]

Biker

You seem to have taken personal offense from my opinions. I mean you no harm. I recognize that in your traditions I am condemned by God and you are one of the Chosen few and for that I congratulate you. In the interim, between now and the mystery that awaits at the end of my physical life here, there is much left upon my plate. ...and nothing of what I intend to do with my life has anything to do with you personally or upon your notion of what God expects from me.

peace

[Zzyzx]

.

Just as I thought, you haven't done anything. You just want to ridicule those who do.

As usual Biker, has jumped to a conclusion that he cannot substantiate. He does NOT have grounds for assuming that Flail did nothing -- that is simply his opinion -- it is NOT fact and is NOT substantiated.


Kindly read post #65 above and notice that I accepted your challenge. "Put your money where your mouth is" -- big money.

We are all in this together.

I agree. However, some attempt to promote or defend their religion by claiming that they “do more to help others” than do Non-Theists. Perhaps they actually think that is true – without any actual study of the subject. If the “help” is done to curry favor with gods and insure a “ticket to heaven” the motive defeats good will and honest desire to help others. If proselytization for gods or religions is a condition of helping, I

Conclusions without investigation must come with the territory of supernaturalism for some sects and individuals.

what foot prints will we leave?...or will we choose to follow the herd? ...and step in what they leave behind?

Well said. However, conformity (following the herd) is promoted and is very popular. “Fitting in” and “being accepted” is evidently strong motivation toward participating in “group-think”. Being “different” is discouraged by those “in the box” – as I well know.

[Biker]

.

I'll tell you what, tell me what you accomplished meeting "the needs of others" in the past month, and I'll tell you what I have accomplished.

Mr. Biker – I will take your challenge. “Time to put your money where your mouth is!”

Here is what my wife and I have done in the past month – similar to what we do every month.

I am at the moment taking a break from splitting firewood, with a maul, to be given to people in need. My wife and I cut the wood during this past week clearing storm damage (at no charge). Many elderly people in the Bible Belt heat with wood and some are no longer able to supply their own. Some single mothers are also in need. We show no partiality regarding religion or lack thereof and we decline offers of payment – but do not object to offers of “prayers” on our behalf if that makes people feel better.

Yesterday we took our truck and big flatbed trailer to the local food bank to haul away “stuff” that had accumulated via donations over the years and was occupying space needed for handling food. Later today we will dump the load (a big load) by hand at a friend’s property at no charge to the food bank.

Every week we spend part of at least one day helping in a warehouse where groceries are provided for needy people. We are also available to help with special projects. The Food Bank is run by people promoting Christianity. We consider the cause worthy and therefore cooperate with them and fit right in. Most of our fellow volunteers are good people and NONE attempt to proselytize. We all work hard to accomplish the task at hand (providing groceries for about 700 to 1000 people every week) and don’t discuss belief systems.

My wife and I also do volunteer work at least three days per week helping the Forest Service provide services to the American public. We are on call 24/7 if necessary to help with emergency projects and safety issues.

I would estimate that we spend a minimum of twenty hours each per week PLUS using our own equipment and often supplies to help others on a volunteer basis. I suspect the total averages well over two hundred hours per month (with skills to actually accomplish what is needed). We also occasionally donate money where we know it will be used to actually help others with none going to support a hierarchy – though our income does not allow large dollar contributions, in percentage of income it is probably respectable.

We do these things NOT to impress others, to gain favor with “gods” or to “show others the way”. We do them because we feel it is right to share what we have with others. Most of what we have to share is enthusiasm, energy, tools and equipment, good will, time, and ability to “get the job done” without supervision.

Notice that we are Non-Theists. Our motivation is NOT provided by any religion or by any desire to achieve personal benefits in this life or in a supposed “afterlife”.

You were saying . . . . . .

Well that is very nice, I greatly appreciate what you and your lovely other half are doing. May you be an inspiration to others, especially other retired folks who wile away their time in meaningless endeavors of self indulgence.

Notice we are Non-Theists. Our motivation is not provided by any religion or by any desire to acheive personal benefits in this life or in a supposed "afterlife".

Notice I am a Christian Theist and my actions are the result of the example of Jesus Christ and His Spirit at work in me not as a result of anything I could or would do or with an outlook towards any brownie points.
The Christian Bible says that you can't work your way to heaven anyway, it is futile. You can't get good enough on your efforts only one was good, Jesus Christ.
But the ethic and logic and influence for doing good for others is of Christian in origin so it has influenced you without your even realizing, you can't escape the far reaching effects of Christianity in our culture no matter how much you deny His existence you are influenced by Him and His no matter what you believe. Its bigger than you its bigger than this country and its bigger than this planet.
Now, without ringing my bell but as result of atheist implication falsely against Christians in general.
I spend much of my free time helping Christian orphanages in Mexico, by time and treasure. I and my lovely wife spent all day Saturday in Mexico crossing goods to the orphanage and helping set up a Christian School in the facility.
Next weekend we cross a Medical Clinic to the orphanage, and help set it up.
I spend time and treasure helping prisoners in the US in the deplorable warehousing of humanity system that has failed miserably.
I spend time and treasure helping homeless in my community at times having them stay in my house, bathing them feeding them with physical food and spiritual.
I minister the Gospel in Mexico counseling, praying, teaching those less fortunate than I .
My local ekklesia has numerous outreaches of varying kind to the poor, orphans, sick, I spend time and treasure in these varying outreaches.
That is why I don't spend much time on these boards.
Too busy.
This is in addition to secular endeavors.
I find many professing Christians are what I term practical atheists.
They only believe but no corresponding action. But it doesn't make Christianity wrong or mean that all Christians are that way.
Christianity by far is the most powerful organism for doing and being good on the face of the earth. Because of Jesus Christ and His work in us.
I notice the food bank you work at is Christian, if not for Christianity you wouldn't be able to give of your time in helping the poor.
Have you ever wondered why there are no atheist food banks for the poor?
Have you ever wondered why in practically every large community there is a Luthern Hospital here a Methodist Hospital there a Baptist Hospital there a Catholic Hospital thus and so on but no atheist hospital in sight.
All of this type of activity is going on right now in 238 countries of the world by more than 2 Billion Christians, quickly approaching 3 Billion.
Universities, mostly started by Christians.
Anti- slavery, started by Christians.
And I proselytize and don't apologize for it either.

Biker