No one will ever know

[Spaceman13]

Does anyone have "proof" that God/Satan exists? If there is evidence I'd sure like to hear it. This being a debate site we should have proof but I can't think of any.

[adammfr]

"One day we'll find out" is infinitely better than "we already know that God did it." You shouldn't substitute a lack of an answer with a poor answer.

the idea that the Ozone layer can exist with a Sun in place first is impossible

Why is it not impossible for God to exist without being first created by something even more complicated than himself?

And I apologize if I sounded sarcastic, I genuinely meant that someday science might give us an answer to that Ozone question.

[Shermana]

Well I agree that one day "Science" will admit that it's impossible for an Ozone layer to develop with the sun in place first. Try to find a website that actually describes how the oxygen originally hit the UV to begin with in such massive quantities.

What does science today not know that science tomorrow will?

They can create genome maps now, so I imagine such trivial issues of Solar radiation and biology would be far simpler.

So thus, with that in place, unless you can actually prove that its possible for such, Genesis wins.

[adammfr]

Well I agree that one day "Science" will admit that it's impossible for an Ozone layer to develop with the sun in place first.

So basically, your belief is that since you can't explain it, God did it. We've already been over this. You are making a hasty conclusion that not only do we not know, but we will never know, so we might as well just stop trying to find an answer and say that it was created by God.

This is absolutely not proof that God exists.

If you are going to say,

So thus, with that in place, unless you can actually prove that its possible for such, Genesis wins.

, I am going to say that, unless you can explain how such a being of immense power and complexity came about in the first place without a creator, God's existence is far, far more impossible than the existence of the Ozone after the existence of the sun ever could be.

Like I said, special pleading.

[Shermana]

No, the special pleading is when something has been proven, like that nothing can exist with a sun in place first, and you think somehow science will figure out a way to prove the impossible.

[adammfr]

No, the special pleading is when something has been proven, like that nothing can exist with a sun in place first, and you think somehow science will figure out a way to prove the impossible.

You say that, because life exists and the sun would have apparently killed it, God exists, because it is the only explanation, whatsoever, period.

You obviously don't understand what special pleading is. Special pleading is when you use rigorous standards for verification for things that you want to be false, but won't place the same standards on the things that you wish to be true.

You seem to be under the impression that we are not allowed to not know something. If we don't know, God did it. Curiosity is a natural part of the human mind. One thousand years ago, people would have also said that God made lightening, and that there is no other explanation.

I find it dishonest and biased that you hold this in such high regard to the existence of God, and completely and utterly disregard the fact that God himself would not stand up to the rigorous burden of proof you are placing on me.

Can someone please explain to me why you don't even feel the need to explain how God came into existence? Like I said, he is the one exception. The special thing that you are pleading for. He doesn't need to make since, even though his existence can never, ever be rationally explained. The existence of God is a mystery infinitely more unknowable than some details concerning the Ozone layer.

[Shermana]

" Special pleading is when you use rigorous standards for verification for things that you want to be false, but won't place the same standards on the things that you wish to be true. "

I see. But if I say that nothing can exist without an Ozone layer because it would meet massive radioactive death and nothing's been proven yet that can exist i nsuch conditions, and you deny this fact, that's not special pleading. Got it!

[Hobbes]

Why is it not impossible for God to exist without being first created by something even more complicated than himself?

Why is it not, not impossible?



I think that might just be the first triple negative I've used in my entire life.



So..

What was the question?

Seriously, if you were getting at, isn't it possible that God had a Creator? Well the bible negates the possibility so we'd have to cast the bible aside first. The mere thought of someone or something being more powerful than God should send a nice, cold, tingly shudder down the spine of every bible-believing Jew and Christian on the globe. Think of the implications. God could be overpowered, even destroyed. Then we'd be left with this universe running on its own with no guide, no future, no heaven. It would be at best, Deism gone amuck, and at worst, atheism come true, leading straight toward nihilism. In other words, if God has to answer to someone or something more powerful that may not have our best interests in mind? Welcome to hell.

[Shermana]

Before the question of where God came from can be answered, the Atheist must first answer "Where did free energy and pre-existent matter" come from.

Surely they must be aware that the "Big Bang" requires matter and energy to make a Bang! And something big enough to make that bang.

[Ragna]

Firstly, on the Ozone Layer, Shermana:

Your suggestion assumes there is some Cyanobacteria that could have withstood 10x the UV as today on its own. I disagree.

Now prove that the Cyanobacteria could have lived without an Ozone layer or kindly retract your claim that Genesis is mythical, because on this regard it's 100% scientifically backed.

On which regard? You seem to have a hard time understanding that cyanobacteria not withstanding UV has no bearance on Genesis being accurate. As far as I know, the writers of Genesis didn't have any knowledge of the Young Earth nor microorganisms.

Though it'd interesting to discuss the Ozone Layer, it's irrelevant for our purposes of God existing, because these stand:

There's not a dichotomy between "current scientific theory" and "creationism". For Biblical creationism to be true, we would need another world (one with a sea above the atmosphere, to begin with). Therefore, creationism is not a scientific position.

[...]I'm thinking something similar: any scientific knowledge available to you today, no matter how advanced, will be attributable to a millennia old book, no matter how many errors we commit and things we invent (like placing an prokaryote into eukaryotes).

I'll make something clear again. I've refused to speculate because regardless of which scientific theory is true, there's no supernatural hole left. You simply go on with this assumption believing it's true that if any of these is proven, God is true. This is false.

It's no more complex than this:

I say that Genesis, by itself, is not reliable, independently of which scientific theory is true. It's a mythical book, it has to be checked externally to see if it has some bearing on reality or none. Disproving evolution is not such a check, since aliens could be manipulating mutations via remote control and there could very well be no god in this scenario. Also, all of our modern science has disproved most of the creation myth (there's no water above the sky, the stars came first, then Sun then Earth, etc.).

And I'm sure anyone following the conversation will be baffled at how the topic was derailed.

Before the question of where God came from can be answered, the Atheist must first answer "Where did free energy and pre-existent matter" come from.

Surely they must be aware that the "Big Bang" requires matter and energy to make a Bang! And something big enough to make that bang.

And what exactly requires consciousness and intention for a process like the Big Bang?

[Zzyzx]

.

Before the question of where God came from can be answered, the Atheist must first answer "Where did free energy and pre-existent matter" come from.

Correction: The person proposing "god" is responsible for answering such questions without demanding that others supply information.

Surely they must be aware that the "Big Bang" requires matter and energy to make a Bang! And something big enough to make that bang.

Do you know astrophysics well enough to state this from your own experience / knowledge? Do you cite experts in astrophysics upon which to base this statement?

Or, is the statement based upon uninformed personal opinion or theological "knowledge" of astrophysics?


As a person who spent many years studying, applying and teaching sciences, I often become aware of people attempting to use fake "knowledge" of scientific subjects to bolster their point of view or debate position.