My faith is hanging by a thread-are there sufficient answers

[sleepthroughthestatic]

This is literally the exact email I sent to my Christian philosophy teacher (I go to a very serious Christian high school). One of my comments about not wanting to discuss this with others has actually kept me from even posting on forums, but this is a debate forum...so I guess it's okay...I really need to start looking outward from myself. Just looking for additional input...thanks. If I get responses, I will probably question them...so be prepared, I'm not looking for a quick answer that gives me some vague hope. I want it to be able to sustain itself against criticisms and still hold water. Also, I'm not really looking for an atheist to come in here and say "this is what it feels like to be logical, it's always interested to see people cope with their shattered faith, etc etc". Please spare me that. And yes I realize the email probably sounds pathetic and idiotic to someone who hasn't been here, and will only use this as evidence to fuel their angst against religion...


"Hey, I decided I wanted to send an email. I find writing to be the more
clear way of communicating, and when dealing with such a profoundly
meaningful subject, I want to ensure both of us are saying what we want to
say--having time to think it through and communicate it in the manner that
we wish.

First, theres a few things I want to say. I dont want you to feel bad or
anything, like you caused me to stumble. Ive been having doubts for
literally years, but I always seem to bounce back based mostly on
emotion, vague answers, or practicality. I dont usually discuss these
doubts with anyone, because Im very afraid that I will ask questions,
people will not have the answers, and then I will cause them to stumble
and ultimately lose their faith. And, from a human standpoint, I think
Christianity is a very good thing that allows people to live with a
feeling of purpose and happiness (even if I dont necessarily believe it
to be divinely true). Even if it wasnt true, I wouldnt want to take that
away from someone. If it is true, I especially dont want to take that
away from them. So its generally a lose-lose situation. However, you have
obviously already thought about these things and I dont feel Im in
danger of messing up your life.

Also, don't be too alarmed. I'm not on the brink of going off the deep
end, I'm not going to start living like a depraved animal if I suddenly
lose my faith. I thoroughly buy into Christianity from a moral and
lifestyle perspective, and regardless of my personal belief in God, I will
continue to live my life the way that I see to be the correct way (moral,
compassionate, empathetic, etc--the way I've been raised, that is,
Christian). Nobody else even has a slight clue that I have any doubt, and
I consider this, obviously, confidential. I don't think, even if I
completely rejected Christianity, that I would ever even tell my
parents--it would be a selfish thing to do that would only serve to worry
and crush them.

I feel like I believe in Christianity with my heart, but less and less do
I believe it with my mind. Which makes for a very weak faith, one based on
works and fueled by self-aware delusion. So I really do need to work out
what I truly believe. But this is not just a small stumbling block, I've
had those. This is a culmination of stumbling blocks, and I've tripped so
many times that I'm starting to wonder why I keep getting back up. How
much should I have to work, rationalize, and conjure up reasons to believe
in God? Should not God have made it obvious, if He were real? I've read
the books. I've read Why I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, I've
read books by Lee Strobel, I've done my homework. To end this long
introduction, I believe you mentioned in class, when discussing God's
sovereignty versus human free-will, that one must pick the one that best
fits the data (the data being the Bible of course). Well, you left out the
third option. That God is...imaginary. That seems to fit the data with
little contradiction. I cant be a true Christian as long I believe that
in the back of mind.

Now, this leads to current, primary issue.

Here is what is what the Bible states:


1. God knows absolutely everything, that is, was, ever will be.
2. God created literally everything.
3. If one does not meet Gods criteria (ie: accept Christ), you are
literally tortured forever.

When creating the universe, God knew man would fall. He had complete
knowledge that man would rebel, and billions of people would be RUTHLESSLY
TORTURED for ETERNITY as a result--every single nuance of his design for
Creation impacted the eternal destiny of people. But God created us
anyway. And why? Because he wanted to be loved? Worshiped? No one really
has a reason. And I cant think of a reason that would come anywhere near
justifying the ruthless, eternal torture of your own creation. Your own
creation that is in an environment in which they did not choose to be, an
environment where the outcome is already established, an environment in
which God setup the rules. Even if it is their choice to go to Hell
(which is questionable due to the Bible explicitly driving home the point
of Gods sovereignty), I do not see how it is justified. I do not want
rhetoric about how God gives us all a chance. Tell me, if you were about
to have a son, but you knew your son would go on to make bad decisions and
eventually end up burned and tormented for eternity, would you still go
ahead and have your son? No, you would do the loving thing and stop it
from happening. Anyone who didnt would be rightfully called an evil,
egotistical, psychopath. And that is the reality of the situation, there
is no way around it with Christian doctrine. Somewhere along the way, it
cannot be right. It completely contradicts the image of a benevolent,
loving God. And the kicker, all of this can be applied to Satan and his
fallen angels.

And then further problems pile on. God decides to literally wipe out the
Earth in an act of mass genocide, literally killing every person and
animal and living thing on the Earth barring one family and a collection
of animals. This could perhaps make sense if God simply didnt know what
was going to happen, but He did. And it is completely illogical. When God
was making the world, he knew if he set it up this way, that this would
happen, and he would have to do this. That makes no sense. And then, to
fix it all (which, was actually by design because he knew it would
happen), he decides to send his Son to be crucified and redeem us of our
sins. But if for some reason we decide we dont believe in it (and being
completely honest, there are a LOT of reasons to reject it), we are BURNED
ALIVE FOREVER. And thats not even taking into account that you dont even
believe we really have a choice to be saved, but rather all of us would
burn if God didnt arbitrarily decide which ones to save from the
deathtrap that he designed and put us in. The Bible says it is our very
nature to sin, we cannot help it, we are born into it--we have no chance
from the beginning unless youre one of the lucky few who wins the
salvation lottery when God drew numbers before he created humanity. Can
you honestly tell me where Im wrong here? Can you truthfully admit all of
this and still hold the belief that God is just and loving? Your analogy
that God is still just, like a police officer stopping only certain people
for speeding tickets does not hold up. For one, in this situation, the
police officer is the one who designed them to speed and are born with an
innate, unavoidable nature to speed. And yes, it is unjust if you only
punish some and not others for no reason. If both your children misbehave
and make the same mistake (that is, being a sinner), and you mercilessly
beat and torture one and give the other one a hug, yes, that is most
assuredly injustice. Youd probably have your children taken away from
you.

Its like, once I remove God from the equation, everything falls into
line. I realize the following can be rationalized, but if they dont have
to be, if the core of Christianity doesnt make sense then everything
becomes easy. Why is there evil? God isnt real. Why is there suffering?
God isnt real. Why doesnt God make his existence obvious? God isnt
real. Why does God appoint all authority, even authority that ends up
brutally murdering millions for no reason? God isnt real. Why are there
passages in the Old Testament that make God seem really bad? God is not
real.

I do not want rhetoric about us being the clay or a fool says in his
heart God there is no God and not having the right to question Gods
ways. It doesnt hold up. God apparently gave us a brain, I cannot be
faulted for using it. Im trying to determine if the Bible is actually
true, and going back to the Bible is circular logic. Surely God would not
expect me to delude myself in order to believe divine, life-saving truth.
My reasons to believe in God are hanging by a thread. My best evidence is
the experience of others. My parents, and others I genuinely trust, have
told me about experiences they swear actually happened, and if they did,
either had to have been God or extreme self-delusion. My parents claim to
have seen a fog in their bedroom while intense prayer, Ive heard
countless stories of extreme coincidences. But can I really base my faith
on the subjective, biased experiences of others? Im inclined to say no.
Ive never experienced God, despite all my efforts and sincere prayer to
do His will (I assure you it was not at all done with a selfish or
doubtful attitude). There are a few other interesting reasons, like
prophecies, but I havent researched it much and Id imagine most are
disputed, its worth looking into but it doesnt erase the bigger problems
Ive talked about above.

So thats my problem. I apologize if I wrote that a little bit heated, Im
just pretty frustrated. Its not like Ive never believed in God. I pretty
much always have, and Ive been, at points, absolutely devout, dedicating
my life and having a genuine love and desire to serve Him. These are not
doubts out of some ulterior motive, I dont want to go drink and
fornicate. It is genuine intellectual inquiry. The weird thing is, I still
want to go to church and youth group, and marry a nice Christian girl and
live a good Christian life, helping others. Maybe Ill just end up living
like one regardless, trying not to think about the utter hypocrisy and
absurdity that would be. If you see me praying or something, I hope you
dont think Im necessarily think Im a huge fake idiot, even if I am...my
opinions are subject to change (whether through logic or not)...I have
never come close to opening up like this about these kind of things to
anyone so Im a bit apprehensive..."

[Richard81]

Other animals do have morals, but they evolved differently from us, so their morals are different in obvious ways, thats why you assume they don't have morals. A good example would be wolves. Wolves have a lot in common with early humans: They lived in a pack, hunted other animals as a pack, competed with other packs and other members of the same pack for food. This is how early humans and wolves behaved. As time went on, humans slowly evolved so they no longer had to compete for food, so they didn't fight as much. It would have been considered immoral for a member of the pack to attack another to get food, since food was plentiful. However, food was not plentiful for the wolves, so it would make sense for them to fight for food. If you look at how the people in bible times acted, you will see quite a difference in morals, because our morals have evolved since then. For instance: We no longer crucify, slavery is illegal, rape victims don't have to marry the rapest, no more crusaders, just to name a few.

[Tex]

Other animals do have morals, but they evolved differently from us, so their morals are different in obvious ways, thats why you assume they don't have morals. A good example would be wolves. Wolves have a lot in common with early humans: They lived in a pack, hunted other animals as a pack, competed with other packs and other members of the same pack for food. This is how early humans and wolves behaved. As time went on, humans slowly evolved so they no longer had to compete for food, so they didn't fight as much. It would have been considered immoral for a member of the pack to attack another to get food, since food was plentiful. However, food was not plentiful for the wolves, so it would make sense for them to fight for food. If you look at how the people in bible times acted, you will see quite a difference in morals, because our morals have evolved since then. For instance: We no longer crucify, slavery is illegal, rape victims don't have to marry the rapest, no more crusaders, just to name a few.

What??? All these thinks you mention come nothing close to what animals do.
They don't even know what that is. "Rape" what is rape to a animal? Slavery: what is this to animals....They live free and need not worry about these stupidities.
Why should we....Why be humans when it would have been better to be an animal.

Why evolve when evolving gives us nothing. We all just know we are going to die and we just added o moral code to feel guilty of the things we do or shouldn't do.

How do we go back to being wolves then?

Atheism is just a way of closing your mind to reality.....You are alive, real, and there is justice. Even if YOU can't see it. God is real.

[Richard81]

Moral codes are instinctive; they are programed into our minds. What we were taught when we were young has a huge effect on what we view as right and wrong. If you grew up in Afghanistan as a muslim, you would have a very different moral code than you do now because you would have grown up in a very different environment, and what you learned from that environment would have gone into your instinct. If you learned to hate infidels for not worshipping allah, it would be programed into your instinct to hate them. These morals did not come from god, rather, they came from what you were taught, learned or what you were exposed to, that was then programed into your instinct. Also, we are born with feelings such as empathy and sympathy, which allows us to put ourselves in the position of others and know how they feel. These feelings are what lets us understand why we aren't suppose to harm others, they are why we can't be wolves. Some are born without them, they are the only ones who can't have a proper moral code.

[Tex]

Moral codes are instinctive; they are programed into our minds. What we were taught when we were young has a huge effect on what we view as right and wrong. If you grew up in Afghanistan as a muslim, you would have a very different moral code than you do now because you would have grown up in a very different environment, and what you learned from that environment would have gone into your instinct. If you learned to hate infidels for not worshipping allah, it would be programed into your instinct to hate them. These morals did not come from god, rather, they came from what you were taught, learned or what you were exposed to, that was then programed into your instinct. Also, we are born with feelings such as empathy and sympathy, which allows us to put ourselves in the position of others and know how they feel. These feelings are what lets us understand why we aren't suppose to harm others, they are why we can't be wolves. Some are born without them, they are the only ones who can't have a proper moral code.

Then why do people change if that's how they were born? You keep on repeating the same things but yet have no answer to why people leave their faith.

People who were atheist become believers, people who were so called believers become atheist. There is a big whole in your theory. If there was no moral code like in the jungle....we would all be happy as we are. So why evolve just to destroy ourselfs? Why the power struggles? Why the greed? Why the guilt? You have know answers for this....Your reason don't wash. There is no purpose for these feeling.

Unless of course we are being taught something.....We need to experience what is right and what is wrong. We need to see the choices we make in order to humble ourself to a bigger plan.

[Richard81]

Peoples more codes rarely change. What you mean is their religious beliefs which are separate from their moral code. My moral code is no different as an atheist than it was as a christian. I changed my beliefs because I saw that another belief system made a lot more sense, and that my beliefs made very little sense. People who were atheist and then turn to christianity normally do it for emotional reasons. Christians who turn to atheism normally do it because christian beliefs don't make sense to them.

[Goat]

Other animals do have morals, but they evolved differently from us, so their morals are different in obvious ways, thats why you assume they don't have morals. A good example would be wolves. Wolves have a lot in common with early humans: They lived in a pack, hunted other animals as a pack, competed with other packs and other members of the same pack for food. This is how early humans and wolves behaved. As time went on, humans slowly evolved so they no longer had to compete for food, so they didn't fight as much. It would have been considered immoral for a member of the pack to attack another to get food, since food was plentiful. However, food was not plentiful for the wolves, so it would make sense for them to fight for food. If you look at how the people in bible times acted, you will see quite a difference in morals, because our morals have evolved since then. For instance: We no longer crucify, slavery is illegal, rape victims don't have to marry the rapest, no more crusaders, just to name a few.

What??? All these thinks you mention come nothing close to what animals do.
They don't even know what that is. "Rape" what is rape to a animal? Slavery: what is this to animals....They live free and need not worry about these stupidities.
Why should we....Why be humans when it would have been better to be an animal.

Why evolve when evolving gives us nothing. We all just know we are going to die and we just added o moral code to feel guilty of the things we do or shouldn't do.

How do we go back to being wolves then?

Atheism is just a way of closing your mind to reality.....You are alive, real, and there is justice. Even if YOU can't see it. God is real.

You seem to be making ALL sorts of unsupported claims here. Let's see if you can 1) first define in a clear and concise manner "Justice" , and then , give tangible and objective evidence that "God is real".

Can you show that you are more than a wolf? Wolves are very cool animals, and a heck of a lot smarter than most give them credit for.

[brhal]

Here's the thing. Either god is or god isn't. If god isn't then we do the best we can to have a life where we find some form of contentment. If God is, then what manner of person should we be; even if he is ruthless and cruel, if he is real, then I want to be found on his side.

[Tex]

Other animals do have morals, but they evolved differently from us, so their morals are different in obvious ways, thats why you assume they don't have morals. A good example would be wolves. Wolves have a lot in common with early humans: They lived in a pack, hunted other animals as a pack, competed with other packs and other members of the same pack for food. This is how early humans and wolves behaved. As time went on, humans slowly evolved so they no longer had to compete for food, so they didn't fight as much. It would have been considered immoral for a member of the pack to attack another to get food, since food was plentiful. However, food was not plentiful for the wolves, so it would make sense for them to fight for food. If you look at how the people in bible times acted, you will see quite a difference in morals, because our morals have evolved since then. For instance: We no longer crucify, slavery is illegal, rape victims don't have to marry the rapest, no more crusaders, just to name a few.

What??? All these thinks you mention come nothing close to what animals do.
They don't even know what that is. "Rape" what is rape to a animal? Slavery: what is this to animals....They live free and need not worry about these stupidities.
Why should we....Why be humans when it would have been better to be an animal.

Why evolve when evolving gives us nothing. We all just know we are going to die and we just added o moral code to feel guilty of the things we do or shouldn't do.

How do we go back to being wolves then?

Atheism is just a way of closing your mind to reality.....You are alive, real, and there is justice. Even if YOU can't see it. God is real.

You seem to be making ALL sorts of unsupported claims here. Let's see if you can 1) first define in a clear and concise manner "Justice" , and then , give tangible and objective evidence that "God is real".

Can you show that you are more than a wolf? Wolves are very cool animals, and a heck of a lot smarter than most give them credit for.

Here we go again...Last time it was a fly...Now someone uses a wolf to place up against humans. If a person can't see themselves as more that just an animal how can they ever see God.

[otseng]

This is just more crap you sell yourself, to not believe in God.

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[Nickman]

Here's the thing. Either god is or god isn't. If god isn't then we do the best we can to have a life where we find some form of contentment. If God is, then what manner of person should we be; even if he is ruthless and cruel, if he is real, then I want to be found on his side.

Your saying your morals depend on god and you will sell your self out to this god regardless if he is evil or benevolent. I look at my own moral compass in my mind. It has been formed by my experiences, social behaviours, and governmental ordinances. I dont need a god to do what I know is right or wrong based on these. I don't need a book that is three thousand years old to tell me either. Besides, the bible is full of immortality more so than morality. God can't even forgive a person without killing another. That is immoral.