Why is this called a " Christian DEbate site"

[Tex]

It seems all people do here is attack God.

It should be called an "atheist" debate site. It's most probably to get Christians to come into the lions den.

[Tex]

Amazing....If I listen to you....Judaism is a new Religion. However I keep on opening site after site and they say nothing what you say.

You didn't look around on even THAT site enough. See below.

As for other sites -- I have said elsewhere, and many times, that websites on the Jewish religion are not reliable. Most are Orthodox, though few make that clear; the Orthodox, like fundamentalist Christians, think that their perspective is the ONLY one that is proper or correct -- but the fact is that only about 10% of Jews worldwide are Orthodox. I have said for years now that anyone really interested in learning about Judaism should really read an actual book or two, e.g. Milton Friedman's Basic Judaism or even Judaism for Dummies.

Are you an authority in Judaism....Are you a Rabbi at least?

No, I am not a rabbi; but I AM what is called a "learned layman," which has been attested to by several rabbis -- around a dozen, in fact. When one converts to Judaism, one is REQUIRED to study, and it's not uncommon for we converts to be more knowledgeable about the "book learning" side of the faith than many who are born Jewish, though we are understandably less experienced and wise in the cultural and emotional side of the community (since we were not brought up in it). I have continued to study Judaism long after my conversion; I would estimate that I have read perhaps 400 books on the subject, or more, from many perspectives and on many aspects of Judaism and Jewish history. Others have tried to paint me as some sort of lone nutball who is "making it up as I go along," as you yourself have said; I can only say that that is not the case. Everything I post is solidly founded in the spectrum of acceptable Jewish belief, and is actually a good deal less radical than some of the perspectives found on that spectrum, as you are about to see.

The link you posted is actually to a rather good site, but you ought to have looked around on it a bit more. For instance, here is their article on Reform Judaism, which contains the following on the Torah (which seems to be the subject about which you are most concerned now):

Revelation vs interpretation: Whilst these changes are some of the obvious outward signs of Reform Judaism, the key to them all is the question of what happened at Mount Sinai. For the Orthodox, it was the revelation of God given once and for all time. Aspects might be interpreted through oral traditions, but it cannot be altered or negated. Reform adheres to the notion of Progressive Revelation: that the will of God is constantly unfolding and each generation has to hear God's voice in its own time. Mount Sinai was the start, but what held true four thousand years ago for a nomadic group living in the wilderness does not necessarily apply today. Scientific knowledge and modern insights are part of God's revelation too... The Bible may be an authoritative text, but it does not have final authority. In the classic formulation of the relationship between past and present, 'tradition has a vote, but not a veto'.

Conservative Judaism, the movement with which I primarily identify, came after Reform in Jewish history. From that article, note this:

Study of Torah: Modern Jews should study Torah in harmony with their mental world and not solely through the eyes of their ancestors.... Conservative Jews regard the Torah as both divine and human, but having divine authority. They believe the Torah was revealed by God but is a human record of the encounter between humanity and God, and the Jewish people's interpretation of God's will.... The Conservative/Masorti movement practices traditional Judaism, but interprets Jewish teaching in the light of contemporary knowledge and scholarship. Conservative Judaism allows gradual change in law and practice, but only if the change is in harmony with Jewish tradition.

But look at Liberal Judaism as well:

In beliefs and practice Liberal Judaism is more radical than UK Reform Judaism, and has much in common with American Reform Judaism. The movement has a strong intellectual tradition, and believes that Jewish texts should be reinterpreted in the light of modern scholarship and Jewish laws reassessed by their practical suitability to contemporary conditions....

Liberal Jews don't believe that the Torah was written by God on tablets of stone and given to Moses. They believe it was written by human beings and should be responded to as such. Many Liberal Jews do acknowledge that much of the Torah was divinely inspired.

Liberal Jews regard the biblical writers as fallible human beings, anchored in the customs and societies of their time and place. They accept that while the Torah contains much that is spiritual and inspiring, it also contains 'plenty that is flawed, petty, and rooted in ancient politics and culture.'

So, for example, Liberal Jews don't accept that God was responsible for some of the ancient concepts and laws, such as the stoning to death of a rebellious son or the permanent ostracism from the community of Israel of the members of ancient Canaanite tribes. They believe that these were human laws that were part of the culture and moralities of their time and that have no application today.

This re-evaluation of scripture doesn't devalue the Torah. Liberal Jews regard the Torah, together with Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash, as an inexhaustible source of wisdom, guidance and inspiration. However, they believe that the Torah and other works should be interpreted in the context of the present day, rather than literally.

And of course there is Reconstructionist Judaism, one of our newer movements; among their perspectives are these:

A supernatural understanding of God (and of heavenly salvation) is misguided:
God is not a being
God does not intervene in human life
People can't know God as a person
God is the 'power that makes for salvation'
Salvation must be achieved in this world, not some supernatural 'hereafter'
The Torah is not the result of supernatural revelation

And there is Humanistic Judaism, which is the most radical of the modern movements: it goes a bit farther than I personally think necessary, but some around here might be astonished that it is considered a part of Judaism at all:

Humanistic Judaism doesn't proclaim that there is no God, but it does do without God. It sees no evidence for the existence of a supernatural being. Most Humanistic Jews regard the question of God's existence as either meaningless, or irrelevant.

It finds no meaning in the worship of God, whether or not God exists. So Humanistic Jews do not pray or refer to God or the supernatural, or use worshipful or prayer-like language....

Humanistic Judaism views Jewish history as the story of real people and real events.
The story of the Jews to be found in the Bible and the Talmud contains kernels of truth overlaid with myth and legend. Modern science, archeology, and biblical criticism are revealing the story of the Jewish experience, a story that continues into our own times...
Humanistic Jews celebrate the traditional Jewish festivals, but with the supernatural elements removed. They see these festivals as a way of commemorating the shared history, memories, and culture of the Jewish people, and as a way of sharing togetherness with the Jewish community. Family rituals such as Bar Mitzvahs are a way for a family to restate their values and their togetherness.

There are MANY perspectives within my religion; and though we disagree, sometimes intensely, on all these points (and many others -- I couldn't quote EVERYTHING on these sites), we all still affirm each other as Jews. Too, there are no hard bright lines between these "movements" or "branches" of Judaism, as is the case with most Christian denominations; the thinking of many Jews partakes of many of these modes of thought and belief, or, like my own, can cycle between several of them depending on mood and the specific subject. This is because, as I keep saying, the specific content of one's beliefs are not of central, or even peripheral, importance in the Jewish religion. Judaism is about community, values, traditions, heritage, and observance, not a set of formal beliefs that can never change -- though that is true to some extent of the Orthodox.

I hope all that helps. I quite understand your doubts and your incredulity; indeed, I have been dealing with it for some years now. Few people outside of the Jewish community really know much about modern Judaism, even though many seem to think that they do because they have read the Bible. Judaism has changed a great deal since the fall of the Temple in 70 CE; and it's an unfortunate fact that the New Testament -- and particularly Paul -- does not really portray the Judaism of even that time with particular accuracy. It's not that Paul was "lying" or anything of the kind, but he was rather out of step with the normative Judaism of his own day. Not surprising, since he was from Tarsus, a community where the culture was far more Greek than Jewish.

I'm not looking for an argument here. This is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. You are free to disagree with me as anyone is free to disagree with anyone else around here, but if you continue to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm discussing my own religion -- well, there isn't much to say, except perhaps "Read the parts of the very site you linked to and see for yourself."

Tex: Well....It's just what I thought.....They created their own type of Judaism.
Basically, any thing goes. IT's just like Kaya Christianity......anything goes and all we need is Islam on board....Then anything goes for everyone....Then who needs God. Lets hope it brings world peace.

[cnorman18]

Amazing....If I listen to you....Judaism is a new Religion. However I keep on opening site after site and they say nothing what you say.

You didn't look around on even THAT site enough. See below.

As for other sites -- I have said elsewhere, and many times, that websites on the Jewish religion are not reliable. Most are Orthodox, though few make that clear; the Orthodox, like fundamentalist Christians, think that their perspective is the ONLY one that is proper or correct -- but the fact is that only about 10% of Jews worldwide are Orthodox. I have said for years now that anyone really interested in learning about Judaism should really read an actual book or two, e.g. Milton Friedman's Basic Judaism or even Judaism for Dummies.

Are you an authority in Judaism....Are you a Rabbi at least?

No, I am not a rabbi; but I AM what is called a "learned layman," which has been attested to by several rabbis -- around a dozen, in fact. When one converts to Judaism, one is REQUIRED to study, and it's not uncommon for we converts to be more knowledgeable about the "book learning" side of the faith than many who are born Jewish, though we are understandably less experienced and wise in the cultural and emotional side of the community (since we were not brought up in it). I have continued to study Judaism long after my conversion; I would estimate that I have read perhaps 400 books on the subject, or more, from many perspectives and on many aspects of Judaism and Jewish history. Others have tried to paint me as some sort of lone nutball who is "making it up as I go along," as you yourself have said; I can only say that that is not the case. Everything I post is solidly founded in the spectrum of acceptable Jewish belief, and is actually a good deal less radical than some of the perspectives found on that spectrum, as you are about to see.

The link you posted is actually to a rather good site, but you ought to have looked around on it a bit more. For instance, here is their article on Reform Judaism, which contains the following on the Torah (which seems to be the subject about which you are most concerned now):

Revelation vs interpretation: Whilst these changes are some of the obvious outward signs of Reform Judaism, the key to them all is the question of what happened at Mount Sinai. For the Orthodox, it was the revelation of God given once and for all time. Aspects might be interpreted through oral traditions, but it cannot be altered or negated. Reform adheres to the notion of Progressive Revelation: that the will of God is constantly unfolding and each generation has to hear God's voice in its own time. Mount Sinai was the start, but what held true four thousand years ago for a nomadic group living in the wilderness does not necessarily apply today. Scientific knowledge and modern insights are part of God's revelation too... The Bible may be an authoritative text, but it does not have final authority. In the classic formulation of the relationship between past and present, 'tradition has a vote, but not a veto'.

Conservative Judaism, the movement with which I primarily identify, came after Reform in Jewish history. From that article, note this:

Study of Torah: Modern Jews should study Torah in harmony with their mental world and not solely through the eyes of their ancestors.... Conservative Jews regard the Torah as both divine and human, but having divine authority. They believe the Torah was revealed by God but is a human record of the encounter between humanity and God, and the Jewish people's interpretation of God's will.... The Conservative/Masorti movement practices traditional Judaism, but interprets Jewish teaching in the light of contemporary knowledge and scholarship. Conservative Judaism allows gradual change in law and practice, but only if the change is in harmony with Jewish tradition.

But look at Liberal Judaism as well:

In beliefs and practice Liberal Judaism is more radical than UK Reform Judaism, and has much in common with American Reform Judaism. The movement has a strong intellectual tradition, and believes that Jewish texts should be reinterpreted in the light of modern scholarship and Jewish laws reassessed by their practical suitability to contemporary conditions....

Liberal Jews don't believe that the Torah was written by God on tablets of stone and given to Moses. They believe it was written by human beings and should be responded to as such. Many Liberal Jews do acknowledge that much of the Torah was divinely inspired.

Liberal Jews regard the biblical writers as fallible human beings, anchored in the customs and societies of their time and place. They accept that while the Torah contains much that is spiritual and inspiring, it also contains 'plenty that is flawed, petty, and rooted in ancient politics and culture.'

So, for example, Liberal Jews don't accept that God was responsible for some of the ancient concepts and laws, such as the stoning to death of a rebellious son or the permanent ostracism from the community of Israel of the members of ancient Canaanite tribes. They believe that these were human laws that were part of the culture and moralities of their time and that have no application today.

This re-evaluation of scripture doesn't devalue the Torah. Liberal Jews regard the Torah, together with Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash, as an inexhaustible source of wisdom, guidance and inspiration. However, they believe that the Torah and other works should be interpreted in the context of the present day, rather than literally.

And of course there is Reconstructionist Judaism, one of our newer movements; among their perspectives are these:

A supernatural understanding of God (and of heavenly salvation) is misguided:
God is not a being
God does not intervene in human life
People can't know God as a person
God is the 'power that makes for salvation'
Salvation must be achieved in this world, not some supernatural 'hereafter'
The Torah is not the result of supernatural revelation

And there is Humanistic Judaism, which is the most radical of the modern movements: it goes a bit farther than I personally think necessary, but some around here might be astonished that it is considered a part of Judaism at all:

Humanistic Judaism doesn't proclaim that there is no God, but it does do without God. It sees no evidence for the existence of a supernatural being. Most Humanistic Jews regard the question of God's existence as either meaningless, or irrelevant.

It finds no meaning in the worship of God, whether or not God exists. So Humanistic Jews do not pray or refer to God or the supernatural, or use worshipful or prayer-like language....

Humanistic Judaism views Jewish history as the story of real people and real events.
The story of the Jews to be found in the Bible and the Talmud contains kernels of truth overlaid with myth and legend. Modern science, archeology, and biblical criticism are revealing the story of the Jewish experience, a story that continues into our own times...
Humanistic Jews celebrate the traditional Jewish festivals, but with the supernatural elements removed. They see these festivals as a way of commemorating the shared history, memories, and culture of the Jewish people, and as a way of sharing togetherness with the Jewish community. Family rituals such as Bar Mitzvahs are a way for a family to restate their values and their togetherness.

There are MANY perspectives within my religion; and though we disagree, sometimes intensely, on all these points (and many others -- I couldn't quote EVERYTHING on these sites), we all still affirm each other as Jews. Too, there are no hard bright lines between these "movements" or "branches" of Judaism, as is the case with most Christian denominations; the thinking of many Jews partakes of many of these modes of thought and belief, or, like my own, can cycle between several of them depending on mood and the specific subject. This is because, as I keep saying, the specific content of one's beliefs are not of central, or even peripheral, importance in the Jewish religion. Judaism is about community, values, traditions, heritage, and observance, not a set of formal beliefs that can never change -- though that is true to some extent of the Orthodox.

I hope all that helps. I quite understand your doubts and your incredulity; indeed, I have been dealing with it for some years now. Few people outside of the Jewish community really know much about modern Judaism, even though many seem to think that they do because they have read the Bible. Judaism has changed a great deal since the fall of the Temple in 70 CE; and it's an unfortunate fact that the New Testament -- and particularly Paul -- does not really portray the Judaism of even that time with particular accuracy. It's not that Paul was "lying" or anything of the kind, but he was rather out of step with the normative Judaism of his own day. Not surprising, since he was from Tarsus, a community where the culture was far more Greek than Jewish.

I'm not looking for an argument here. This is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. You are free to disagree with me as anyone is free to disagree with anyone else around here, but if you continue to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm discussing my own religion -- well, there isn't much to say, except perhaps "Read the parts of the very site you linked to and see for yourself."

Tex: Well....It's just what I thought.....They created their own type of Judaism.

Oversimplify and caricature much?

Who created the 33,000+ Christian denominations? God?

Basically, any thing goes. IT's just like Kaya Christianity......anything goes and all we need is Islam on board....Then anything goes for everyone....Then who needs God. Lets hope it brings world peace.

I was talking about the different perspectives within Jewish religion. I frankly don't know what YOU are talking about.

Here's a hint: If you're saying to yourself, "It's just what I thought," you haven't learned anything. You're just trying to fit new information into all the stereotypes and assumptions you brought with you.

It might also help your credibility and reputation if you'd occasionally respond to my remarks with more than just enough more than a one-liner to avoid violating the rules. I've written a LOT on this thread, and you've absolutely ignored about 98% of it with no comment at all.

Enough. If this is what you think of as a "civil discussion," I think I'll opt out.

I tried, everyone.

[Goat]

The New Testament is not Scripture to Jews. That means only that it is not authoritative for us, which is not the same as saying it is false. I have no knowledge of that and do not claim to. I have, for the record, studied the NT extensively under world-class scholars at Southern Methodist University, and I regard NONE of it as "fable" or "fiction" or anything of the kind. The fact that I no longer accept it as Scripture does not mean or imply any such thing.

I do not even regard the Hebrew Bible as "the Word of God" as you probably do; I regard it as the literature of the Jewish people, and neither history, science treatise, nor the direct words of the Almighty. Again, that is not the same as saying it is "false" or a "fable."

Tex: Yet again....Very interesting.....You do not believe that the Torah is the word of God. Then where did Moses get it from....Mohammed?

Many Jews believe that the Torah was given, in fact dictated letter-by-letter, to Moses directly by God. Others, like myself, believe that the Torah was the result of a long process of oral tradition and redaction by authors unknown over something like a thousand years. Both beliefs are acceptable in modern Judaism -- but the point that might be even harder for you to grasp is that in EITHER case, the Torah is not the absolute and final authority on either belief or doctrine in the Jewish religion. That is why many laws of the Torah are no longer followed, and why in very many cases there is no evidence that they ever were, from stoning disobedient children to the Jubilee Year. The principle, on which I have written many times, is given in the Torah itself; the Torah is not in heaven, that is, now that it has been given to us humans, it is for US to determine its meaning and application in every generation, by the consensus of the wisest among us. That is not a privilege that we have claimed; it is a responsibility which we have been given.

Like I said; the Jewish religion and the Christian religion are two separate and distinct faiths with many very basic differences. You may not agree with the above; and we do not agree that a "religion" must consist of agreeing with a set of prescribed beliefs and "doctrines," nor that proper beliefs in anything have the power to "save" anyone.

We believe differently, and "beliefs", in the Jewish religion, just don't mater as much as in the Christian religion. Different religions, okay?

Why not just leave each other alone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... orah.shtml

Amazing....If I listen to you....Judaism is a new Religion. However I keep on opening site after site and they say nothing what you say. Are you an authority in Judaism....Are you a Rabbi at least?

One does not have to be a Rabbi to be educated in Jewish attitudes and understanding. The '20,000 foot level of the Torah' is from a Christian perspective, but Christians are not Jewsish.

Now, while that little blurb is accurate is far as it goes, it does not show or teach about Jewish understanding or attitudes. It might be a new religion to you, because Judaism is not Christianity, and you are looking at the information with your attitudes from Christianity. Not only that, but you are looking it it from your specific brand of Christianity.. and not all Christians have the same attitudes and understanding .

[cnorman18]

With respect to all, I will no longer be participating in this, or any, thread. I am leaving the forum permanently for reasons unrelated to this debate.

Be well, all.

[Tex]

The New Testament is not Scripture to Jews. That means only that it is not authoritative for us, which is not the same as saying it is false. I have no knowledge of that and do not claim to. I have, for the record, studied the NT extensively under world-class scholars at Southern Methodist University, and I regard NONE of it as "fable" or "fiction" or anything of the kind. The fact that I no longer accept it as Scripture does not mean or imply any such thing.

I do not even regard the Hebrew Bible as "the Word of God" as you probably do; I regard it as the literature of the Jewish people, and neither history, science treatise, nor the direct words of the Almighty. Again, that is not the same as saying it is "false" or a "fable."

Tex: Yet again....Very interesting.....You do not believe that the Torah is the word of God. Then where did Moses get it from....Mohammed?

Many Jews believe that the Torah was given, in fact dictated letter-by-letter, to Moses directly by God. Others, like myself, believe that the Torah was the result of a long process of oral tradition and redaction by authors unknown over something like a thousand years. Both beliefs are acceptable in modern Judaism -- but the point that might be even harder for you to grasp is that in EITHER case, the Torah is not the absolute and final authority on either belief or doctrine in the Jewish religion. That is why many laws of the Torah are no longer followed, and why in very many cases there is no evidence that they ever were, from stoning disobedient children to the Jubilee Year. The principle, on which I have written many times, is given in the Torah itself; the Torah is not in heaven, that is, now that it has been given to us humans, it is for US to determine its meaning and application in every generation, by the consensus of the wisest among us. That is not a privilege that we have claimed; it is a responsibility which we have been given.

Like I said; the Jewish religion and the Christian religion are two separate and distinct faiths with many very basic differences. You may not agree with the above; and we do not agree that a "religion" must consist of agreeing with a set of prescribed beliefs and "doctrines," nor that proper beliefs in anything have the power to "save" anyone.

We believe differently, and "beliefs", in the Jewish religion, just don't mater as much as in the Christian religion. Different religions, okay?

Why not just leave each other alone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... orah.shtml

Amazing....If I listen to you....Judaism is a new Religion. However I keep on opening site after site and they say nothing what you say. Are you an authority in Judaism....Are you a Rabbi at least?

One does not have to be a Rabbi to be educated in Jewish attitudes and understanding. The '20,000 foot level of the Torah' is from a Christian perspective, but Christians are not Jewsish.

Now, while that little blurb is accurate is far as it goes, it does not show or teach about Jewish understanding or attitudes. It might be a new religion to you, because Judaism is not Christianity, and you are looking at the information with your attitudes from Christianity. Not only that, but you are looking it it from your specific brand of Christianity.. and not all Christians have the same attitudes and understanding .

Tex: So let me this get this straight.....As a Christian I can never understand Judaism. However if I leave Christianity, then become Jewish or should I say a Judaism, then I will be able to understand the Torah. The only thing that stop me from understanding is my faith? Right

[Tex]

With respect to all, I will no longer be participating in this, or any, thread. I am leaving the forum permanently for reasons unrelated to this debate.

Be well, all.

Tex: Hope all is well.
peace

[Goat]

The New Testament is not Scripture to Jews. That means only that it is not authoritative for us, which is not the same as saying it is false. I have no knowledge of that and do not claim to. I have, for the record, studied the NT extensively under world-class scholars at Southern Methodist University, and I regard NONE of it as "fable" or "fiction" or anything of the kind. The fact that I no longer accept it as Scripture does not mean or imply any such thing.

I do not even regard the Hebrew Bible as "the Word of God" as you probably do; I regard it as the literature of the Jewish people, and neither history, science treatise, nor the direct words of the Almighty. Again, that is not the same as saying it is "false" or a "fable."

Tex: Yet again....Very interesting.....You do not believe that the Torah is the word of God. Then where did Moses get it from....Mohammed?

Many Jews believe that the Torah was given, in fact dictated letter-by-letter, to Moses directly by God. Others, like myself, believe that the Torah was the result of a long process of oral tradition and redaction by authors unknown over something like a thousand years. Both beliefs are acceptable in modern Judaism -- but the point that might be even harder for you to grasp is that in EITHER case, the Torah is not the absolute and final authority on either belief or doctrine in the Jewish religion. That is why many laws of the Torah are no longer followed, and why in very many cases there is no evidence that they ever were, from stoning disobedient children to the Jubilee Year. The principle, on which I have written many times, is given in the Torah itself; the Torah is not in heaven, that is, now that it has been given to us humans, it is for US to determine its meaning and application in every generation, by the consensus of the wisest among us. That is not a privilege that we have claimed; it is a responsibility which we have been given.

Like I said; the Jewish religion and the Christian religion are two separate and distinct faiths with many very basic differences. You may not agree with the above; and we do not agree that a "religion" must consist of agreeing with a set of prescribed beliefs and "doctrines," nor that proper beliefs in anything have the power to "save" anyone.

We believe differently, and "beliefs", in the Jewish religion, just don't mater as much as in the Christian religion. Different religions, okay?

Why not just leave each other alone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... orah.shtml

Amazing....If I listen to you....Judaism is a new Religion. However I keep on opening site after site and they say nothing what you say. Are you an authority in Judaism....Are you a Rabbi at least?

One does not have to be a Rabbi to be educated in Jewish attitudes and understanding. The '20,000 foot level of the Torah' is from a Christian perspective, but Christians are not Jewsish.

Now, while that little blurb is accurate is far as it goes, it does not show or teach about Jewish understanding or attitudes. It might be a new religion to you, because Judaism is not Christianity, and you are looking at the information with your attitudes from Christianity. Not only that, but you are looking it it from your specific brand of Christianity.. and not all Christians have the same attitudes and understanding .

Tex: So let me this get this straight.....As a Christian I can never understand Judaism. However if I leave Christianity, then become Jewish or should I say a Judaism, then I will be able to understand the Torah. The only thing that stop me from understanding is my faith? Right

Nope.. not at all.. It doesn't matter if you leave Christanity or not.. you are not looking at Judaism from the perspective of someone who is willing to understand that Judaism is NOT Christianity. There are plenty of Christians that have been able to learn, and understand. However, when someone keeps on adding misinterpretations, and additions that are NOT said, then, there can be no understanding. Some people are just hostile to concept that to not match their own, and are not willing to understand.

[cnorman18]

With respect to all, I will no longer be participating in this, or any, thread. I am leaving the forum permanently for reasons unrelated to this debate.

Be well, all.

Tex: Hope all is well.
peace

Thanks for your concern -- sincerely -- but all is well. I have changed my mind for the moment, though it may only be for the moment.

Since I'm still hanging around, at least for today, I thought I'd respond to this:

So let me this get this straight.....As a Christian I can never understand Judaism. However if I leave Christianity, then become Jewish or should I say a Judaism, then I will be able to understand the Torah. The only thing that stop me from understanding is my faith? Right.

No, and once again -- I never said that.

The only reason that you don't understand Judaism is that you don't know enough about it. That's all. I knew no more than you when I first began to study it, and I came to an adequate enough understanding of it to know whether or not I wanted to become a Jew or remain a Christian LONG before I actually went through the process. Not everyone who DOES learn about Judaism converts; my own conversion class began with more than 75 members, and by the time we finished, there were only 18 left -- and not all of THEM decided to convert, in the end.

You get no mystical understanding of Judaism by becoming a Jew. Many observant and faithful Jews know very little of these matters; they were simply born into this religion and follow it as their family has for generations. I'm sure you'll agree that there are nominal Christians who more or less go through the motions and don't think about it much, no? There are Jews like that too. No shame to it; that's just human nature.

Anyway, I hope we're done here. We've veered pretty far off your OP -- but I hope we've established that this isn't just an atheist forum for beating up Christians. It certainly CAN be, and often enough HAS been; I've made similar complaints about it myself in the last day or two, and in fact those complaints were the reason I initially decided to leave; but they were more about all varieties and variations of religion being dumped into one box as if they are all the same. That's MY pet complaint, you see. and it keeps happening no matter how many times I rise to object, even from some of our most intelligent and respected members.

So I understand your frustration. Mine is just different -- like my religion.

Thanks again for caring. Be well. I may or may not post on this thread again, without prejudice to any and all arguments. Posting here is feeling more and more like picking up a drink feels to an alcoholic, and tonight I've been on another bender. I know that many think what I say here is worth reading, but that doesn't mean it's worth neglecting all the other things in my life that need my attention.