Did God Create Sin?

[ViperaRex]

Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:

I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.

God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.

And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.

So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 30 by Rkrause]
So mankind is greater than god because one of us turned his perfection into imperfection. This god character is incapable of taking responsibilities for his actions. Isn't he? After all this time is he still a simpleton? Or has he progressed

[Rkrause]

[Replying to post 30 by Rkrause]
So man
kind is greater than god because one of us turned his perfection into imperfection. This god character is incapable of taking responsibilities for his actions. Isn't he? After all this time is he still a simpleton? Or has he progressed?

Forget it....

When you start telling me imperfection is greater that perfection our coversation ends.

[Truely Free]

Southern Cross,

Here's the $64 question.
Should we tear out our hearts for telling us the wrong/right things?

Let's see if I can give you a "$64" answer.
Of course, we all know that the actual human heart is just a metaphor for emotions. The "mind" is closer to where the actual seat of the emotions are, but no one physical things can account for the human nature.
The Bible describes this "human nature" as the spirit. The part responsible for the sin is called the "sin nature" or "old man" (for Christians)
What you stated is actually close to correct. To understand correct Christian doctrine we must understand that this "sin nature" cannot be reformed, it must be killed. That was the purpose of Christ on the cross. He paid for the actions of our sin nature, but also made a way for us to place the sin nature aside.
The Bible tells us to "take up our cross" (Matthew 16:24), it says as Christians we have "died with Christ" Galatians 2:20, and Colossians 3:3.
The idea is this. Christ's death made us acceptable to God because He took our punishment. Now, whatever we do, God will no longer punish us for it. (1 Corinthians 10, Isaiah 53:5, Romans 8:1)
But this still leaves us with the ability to do sin. Therefore, Christ removes the desire we have for sin. If we spiritually choose to place our identity in him (not crazy voodoo, we all choose to place our identity in something, sports, education, sexual orientation, relationships, exc, you could go on forever) creating a shift in our desires. The Bible describes this as putting our old man to death, and Christ living through us. There is a spiritual dimension here, that the Holy spirit fills us, gives us the desires of Christ and helps us to live it out. So it is still not our good works, but Christ's finished works that motivates and works in us. That can be a bit spiritual for most people, so simply argued from a normal everyday choice, if we choose to place our identity in Christ that will show forth in our actions. (much the same with every other person who chooses what to place their identity in)
The Bible says that everything we do should flow out of our love for God. (Romans 14:8) So, spiritually, yes. Rip out your heart, replace it with Christ's heart. Sound violent...ehh. It's only metaphoric. Sound like you are giving yourself up....well, yes. But anything of value requires sacrifice. If you will lay your life on the line to play sports or get a girl you love, why not to gain what would be viewed as ultimate value. Yes, the sacrifice is more, but the reward is more.

[southern cross]

[Replying to post 30 by Rkrause]
So man
kind is greater than god because one of us turned his perfection into imperfection. This god character is incapable of taking responsibilities for his actions. Isn't he? After all this time is he still a simpleton? Or has he progressed?

Forget it....

When you start telling me imperfection is greater that perfection our coversation ends.

Ummm no that would be you who made that claim. Amazing what you need to believe when you already believe the opposite.

[southern cross]

Southern Cross,

Here's the $64 question.
Should we tear out our hearts for telling us the wrong/right things?

Let's see if I can give you a "$64" answer.
Of course, we all know that the actual human heart is just a metaphor for emotions. The "mind" is closer to where the actual seat of the emotions are, but no one physical things can account for the human nature.
The Bible describes this "human nature" as the spirit. The part responsible for the sin is called the "sin nature" or "old man" (for Christians)
What you stated is actually close to correct. To understand correct Christian doctrine we must understand that this "sin nature" cannot be reformed, it must be killed. That was the purpose of Christ on the cross. He paid for the actions of our sin nature, but also made a way for us to place the sin nature aside.
The Bible tells us to "take up our cross" (Matthew 16:24), it says as Christians we have "died with Christ" Galatians 2:20, and Colossians 3:3.
The idea is this. Christ's death made us acceptable to God because He took our punishment. Now, whatever we do, God will no longer punish us for it. (1 Corinthians 10, Isaiah 53:5, Romans 8:1)
But this still leaves us with the ability to do sin. Therefore, Christ removes the desire we have for sin. If we spiritually choose to place our identity in him (not crazy voodoo, we all choose to place our identity in something, sports, education, sexual orientation, relationships, exc, you could go on forever) creating a shift in our desires. The Bible describes this as putting our old man to death, and Christ living through us. There is a spiritual dimension here, that the Holy spirit fills us, gives us the desires of Christ and helps us to live it out. So it is still not our good works, but Christ's finished works that motivates and works in us. That can be a bit spiritual for most people, so simply argued from a normal everyday choice, if we choose to place our identity in Christ that will show forth in our actions. (much the same with every other person who chooses what to place their identity in)
The Bible says that everything we do should flow out of our love for God. (Romans 14:8) So, spiritually, yes. Rip out your heart, replace it with Christ's heart. Sound violent...ehh. It's only metaphoric. Sound like you are giving yourself up....well, yes. But anything of value requires sacrifice. If you will lay your life on the line to play sports or get a girl you love, why not to gain what would be viewed as ultimate value. Yes, the sacrifice is more, but the reward is more.

I mean WOW, you have so many cliches and aphorisms in here it's hard to know where to start. But here goes.
We actually know that the human heart is a pump that keeps blood flowing through the human body and not a metaphor for anything. Ancient goatherds who had absolutely know idea of reality, decided that if the heart was the most important organ in the body, then that must be where everything happens.
I was under the impression that according to theists the mind is not physical but spiritual. Wrong?
Allegedly all humans are born with the old man nature? Are you sure?
I don't know whether you can claim that since the tree episode all of us have been sinless as you have. Have you ever even looked at history?
But as an atheist, I am happy that if I'm wrong and I front this god character when I die, he'll give me a free pass into heaven just 'cause he murdered his son. He didn't rip his heart out though. Oh well as god I guess he gets to make the rules.

[Clownboat]

It's not clear that sin is something which can be applied to non-humans. The Bible, to my knowledge, never accuses demons of sin. Certainly there are non-humans in the Bible who disobey God, but the Bible never calls that sin. Sin in uniquely human.

Ezekiel 28:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 You (Lucifer) were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

[dianaiad]

Okay, Christians will usually say, "no, God did not create sin, it was Adam & Eve/ the Serpent, who created sin. They say; "God created the conditions through which sin might be born, but he himself did not create sin". This argument might make sense if God couldn't see the future, but according to the bible, he can, rendering this argument absolutely ridiculous, let me give you an analogy:

I Am a scientist,one day I become bored, I decide to create an experiment for my amusement, however, I know that conducting this particular experiment will release a toxic gas that will spread and kill everything within a 5 mile radius, This isn't the main point of the experiment, but it is a byproduct I know will occur. I strap on a gas mask, shrug, and do it anyway. Sure enough, the gas is released, and thousands of of people die. Surely I would be blamed for it, as I knew it would happen but did it anyway, would you defend me and say; "Hey, he didn't create the gas, he simply created the conditions in which that gas might be created, but he didn't make it". Of course you wouldn't, that makes no sense.

God didn't say, "Let there be sin", but he created it by creating the right conditions and allowing it to happen.

And thus, how can he be angry at us for sinning, when it is not really our fault that we sin, if he had not created the conditions for sin, it would not exist.

So, my question is, did God create sin?, if you believe "no", please justify it in light of all this

If you want to look at it that way....Yes,in a way, by creating us God took a chance that we may sin. Odds being that we would sin.
But I'm sure God would of hoped that we didn't fail. Just like any Father doesn't want his children to make mistake that maybe he had made.

God did not "Take a chance", God CANNOT take a chance because God knows everything, God knew with absolute 100% certainty that we would sin. What do you mean "any mistakes he had made"?, are implying God has sinned?

Begging the question. God does NOT know with 100% certainty that we will sin, or to what extent, or who will commit what sin. He can't...not and have free will any part of the equation. If we cannot make the choice, then it's not free will. If He knows what each individual choice will be, it's not free will.

But He is omniscient...He can know everything. He's also omnipotent...He can do anything.

This does not mean that He MUST know everything and that He MUST do everything; that concept is indeed self contradictory. If God has given us the freedom to choose our actions (free will) then PART of that 'gift' would be...He not know what that choice will be. He may know that someone will choose to do thus and so...but not which one of us.

....and if being omnipotent means that He can't choose NOT to do something, it's not omnipotence, is it?

God did not 'create sin.' He gave us choice. OUR choices, when they are done for self serving reasons that cause harm to ourselves and others, are sinful. "Sin" isn't a 'thing.' It's an attitude; a category; a judgment call. Very few actions are sinful in and of themselves. The reasons behind those actions are what makes them sin...or not.

[aglassdarkly]

Sounds like the devil gets named as the source of all sin. Which makes sense as he is the opposer of God.

If you believe that there really is a Devil, who created the Devil?

That line of thinking doesn't get us any further than "humans are sinful, but who created humans"... which we're already doing. The most you could do is blame God for free will. I like my free will. It seems God values it too.

If the Devil could spread so much evil and sin, why would a good God, a powerful God and a wise God, allow him free rein?

Free reign? There's no evidence of that.

My friend has a son who is into some bad stuff. He's a real troublemaker. But my friend lets his son know that his family loves him and there's always a safe place where he can run when life gets the better of him. Sometimes we don't appreciate love until things get really bad. We find people running to God when they are suffering. If they run to Him and receive eternal life, the temporal suffering seems worth it to me.

I think that Satan's initial rebellion against God would be classed as sin, probably the very first sin, along with all the demons rebelling.

When you read mythology literally, you end up with absurdities.

When you think reality is a myth, you end up lost.

No one with a lick of sense would oppose the will of an all-powerful creator of the universe.

We do it all the time.

[Truely Free]

[Replying to post 35 by southern cross]

you have so many cliches and aphorisms in here it's hard to know where to start

Well, yeah. It's a thousand year old doctrine. If I was saying something new I would be teaching heresy.

We actually know that the human heart is a pump that keeps blood flowing through the human body

I think you and I were saying the same thing here. You used the word "heart" not I. What I was explaining is simply that westerners see the heart as the seat of emotions, and use it as a metaphor for the "mind", even if we know that the real seat of the emotions is (scientifically) the brain. In the culture I grew up in the seat of the emotions was the stomach.
Of course, science isn't the best venue through which to study emotions, so who's to say where the "real" seat of the emotions is.
Of course, emotions are hardly "everything"

Ancient goatherds who had absolutely know idea of reality, decided that if the heart was the most important organ in the body, then that must be where everything happens.

And I'm not sure where you got the basis for this historical statement. Like I said, the "seat of the emotions" differ culture to culture.

I was under the impression that according to theists the mind is not physical but spiritual. Wrong?

I actually addressed this in another thread, but this is based of the misconception that science and religion are at battle. For instance, the scientist says that the "mind" is only the output of the brain. Often the "mind" is mixed with the word "spirit". The word "soul" would more closely explain the "scientific" word "mind." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mind. It describes a persons character, thoughts, conscienceness. Spirit, is very different [/url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 6036[quote] . The Spirit and spiritual is, in nature, outside of the realm of science. So, no. We don't believe that the mind is "spiritual". The mind wouldn't quite be physical either...the Brain is. We can see the brain working in reaction to the mind, but not the spirit. We can experience (or feel) the mind reacting to the spirit. However, if the spirit departs, both mind and brain ceases to function.
Complicated, but that is why we don't use science to study it, we use theology. This is what the "naturalist" or "atheist" runs into. Naturalism states that there is nothing but the natural (in which case even the mind would be unable to exist). Because of that Natural science, which is the study of the physical, is used to answer everything this disregards any number of other "sciences" and leaves Naturalist without good answers to the questions those sciences are supposed to answer . Christianity views God as God over all, so all the sciences lead to a better understanding of him.

[/quote]Allegedly all humans are born with the old man nature? Are you sure?

Well, it's only the "old man" if you become a "new man", but sin nature. Pretty sure. Have you ever met anyone who NEVER EVER makes a mistake, does anything bad, always does the best thing to the extent that is should be done despite anything in every situation? I haven't. So I would say, yeah, as far as I can see, there is no one who is born without what we as Christians would call the "sin nature." If you have netflix watch a documentary on there called the "science of evil". It might be very interesting in regards to this.

I don't know whether you can claim that since the tree episode all of us have been sinless as you have. Have you ever even looked at history?

I'm a little lost at what you mean here. I never claimed anywhere to be sinless. I'm not clear on what point you are trying to make. Maybe you can re-phrase for me.

But as an atheist, I am happy that if I'm wrong and I front this god character when I die, he'll give me a free pass into heaven just 'cause he murdered his son.

I suggest you read a Biblical account if you haven't already. Jesus was killed by the Romans and the Jews, (humanity).
I truly hope that you get a "free pass" into heaven. I would be so excited to see you there. Sadly, that can't happen unless you have faith in Christ. In which case, you would no longer be an atheist. If you would like to know more about it, I or any other Christian here would love to explain to you.
Without Christ though, you will stand before a God, having called His son's willing sacrifice worthless and having refused the benefits. If you are wrong, it will be a sorrowful thing. Lets both hope you are not wrong.

[Truely Free]

Sorry, quite markers got messed up. I do that way to often