Give one reason or argument that God doesnt exist

austin12345 · Post by **austin12345** » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:16 am

Try and give one reason philosophically or scientifically that God doesnt exist, but not one emotionally.

Boots · Post by **Boots** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:07 am

olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote: Sorry but facts don't apply with creationism and can't be determined by creationism. "Faith is belief in inspiration, revelation, or authority. The word faith generally refers to a belief that is held with lack of, in spite of or against reason and evidence." Creationism is a tenet of a belief system held with "lack of, in spite of or against reason and evidence." Facts are determined using logic and reason and evidence not gods, inspiration, revelation or authority. http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/ ... ality.html
If God created the universe then that would be a fact. And at this moment it would appear that is indeed the fact of the matter.

Um, no it doesn't. *shrug* An unfounded assertion can be dismissed.

Artie wrote: So if humans evolve and become intelligent enough to make self replicating car engines we also automatically become gods since only gods can make self replicating car engines?

Did your god personally assemble each different flagellum or did your god produce all the different dna codes that assemble each different flagellum or what exactly is it your god is supposed to have created?
We know that chance can't create reproducing machines, we need intelligence to do that. This intelligence can be human, alien or divine; but intelligence is needed.

I call shenanigans. We know nothing of the kind--and are you talking about "machines" or "cells?"

And, nobody said anything about "chance." Where are you getting this? Natural selection is anything BUT "chance."

olavisjo · Post by **olavisjo** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:09 am

Boots wrote: I call shenanigans. We know nothing of the kind--and are you talking about "machines" or "cells?"

Cells are small complex machines.

Boots wrote: And, nobody said anything about "chance." Where are you getting this? Natural selection is anything BUT "chance."

Interesting, you have found a way to do natural selection without random mutations, you must be talking about intelligent design.

Filthy Tugboat · Post by **Filthy Tugboat** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:28 am

olavisjo wrote:
Artie wrote: So if humans evolve and become intelligent enough to make self replicating car engines we also automatically become gods since only gods can make self replicating car engines?

Did your god personally assemble each different flagellum or did your god produce all the different dna codes that assemble each different flagellum or what exactly is it your god is supposed to have created?
We know that chance can't create reproducing machines, we need intelligence to do that. This intelligence can be human, alien or divine; but intelligence is needed.

To my knowledge, the above quoted assertion has no basis in reality. What leads you to the conclusion that it is "known" that reproducing machines cannot occur by means of chance? What leads you to the conclusion that intelligence is a necessary prerequisite for reproducing machine's to exist?

Provide one example of reproducing machine's being "created" and then show that intelligence caused the creation of reproducing machines.

southern cross · Post by **southern cross** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:57 am

austin12345 wrote: Try and give one reason philosophically or scientifically that God doesnt exist, but not one emotionally.

Theists believe it does.

olavisjo · Post by **olavisjo** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:24 am

Filthy Tugboat wrote: What leads you to the conclusion that it is "known" that reproducing machines cannot occur by means of chance? What leads you to the conclusion that intelligence is a necessary prerequisite for reproducing machine's to exist?

To find, by chance, the DNA combinations required for the simplest reproducing machine would take far longer than the universe will exist.

Filthy Tugboat wrote: Provide one example of reproducing machine's being "created" and then show that intelligence caused the creation of reproducing machines.

A computer virus will reproduce itself, and they are caused by humans.

Filthy Tugboat · Post by **Filthy Tugboat** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 am

olavisjo wrote:
Filthy Tugboat wrote: What leads you to the conclusion that it is "known" that reproducing machines cannot occur by means of chance? What leads you to the conclusion that intelligence is a necessary prerequisite for reproducing machine's to exist?
To find, by chance, the DNA combinations required for the simplest reproducing machine would take far longer than the universe will exist.

So basically you're saying that because finding the answer to this question will be difficult or impossible, we will just assume that the answer is in the negative? And, I believe, you consider yourself to be an advocate of critical thinking?

Will you retract your claim as you have admitted that you are incapable of providing support for it?

Filthy Tugboat wrote: Provide one example of reproducing machine's being "created" and then show that intelligence caused the creation of reproducing machines.

A computer virus will reproduce itself, and they are caused by humans.[/quote]

I think it is worthy of note that a computer virus is not a machine.

southern cross · Post by **southern cross** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:49 am

[Replying to post 125 by olavisjo]

To find, by chance, the DNA combinations required for the simplest reproducing machine would take far longer than the universe will exist.

Must have been one hell of a smart cookie to produce DNA from scratch, yeah?

olavisjo · Post by **olavisjo** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:10 pm

[Replying to post 126 by Filthy Tugboat]

This topic is not about evolution so I will post my reply here...

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 891#548891

southern cross · Post by **southern cross** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:15 pm

but, but, but I was responding to your post.

southern cross wrote: [Replying to post 125 by olavisjo]
To find, by chance, the DNA combinations required for the simplest reproducing machine would take far longer than the universe will exist.
Must have been one hell of a smart cookie to produce DNA from scratch, yeah?

PhiloKGB · Post by **PhiloKGB** » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:19 pm

olavisjo wrote: The bacterial flagellum is one of those complex organs where the parts can't evolve gradually because they would not have any function until they are complete.
Biologists have discovered a type III secretory system that is made up of 1/4 the parts of the flagellum. They have argued that the flagellum has "co-opted" parts from the secretory system and used them in entirely novel ways.
One problem with this idea is that the need for mobility would have evolved long before the need for the secretory system so the secretory system would have evolved from the flagellum; not the other way around.

Fortunately, there are other means of bacterial motility. Gliding is of particular interest here, as it is observed in multiple species and apparently uses several mechanisms.

The other problem is that even if the flagellum had evolved from the secretory system it would need far too many intermediate steps to become a flagellum. And there is no evidence for even one of those steps.

I wish I could provide a synopsis, but this will have to do: http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html#fig5

I think a more interesting question is why, if one flagellar system is so complex as to require the intervention of a biological engineer, said engineer designed three of them and ensured they were highly conserved between domains?

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Give one reason or argument that God doesnt exist

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