Religious Belief

[Peter]

When does a fervent hope become an actual belief and will the believer recognize the difference? Based on years of debate I don't think they will.

The elephant in the room is death. I spent billions of years in oblivion and I'm not afraid to return to it but some people obviously are. Fear of death must be the number one reason for wishing there's an eternal life and this wish has become a belief in theists the world over. Are they capable of recognizing this belief is simply a strong desire? Should I even try to dissuade them of this belief?

I wouldn't be here if I didn't think religion was the most dangerous impediment to the continued existence of humanity. It's insanity on an inconceivable scale and if we can't just learn to love one another we're doomed as a species. There's more than enough strife and fighting in the world over real issues to justify the addition of imaginary issues like who's god can beat up someone elses god.

It's time to outgrow imaginary playmates and father figures. We have hard work ahead of us if we plan to be around as long as the dinosaurs and I for one will be hugely disappointed if we're not.

[cholland]

integral: (1) of, pertaining to, or belonging as a part of the whole.
(2) necessary to the completeness of the whole

part: (1) a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent

life: (1) the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

death: (1) the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism

From these definitions from dictionary.com, how is life any part of death? It seems to me that death is the total absence of life, not part of it, the end of it.

And aside from the rude and unhelpful remarks, where are you getting these principles? The first principle of life apparently is death. And the purpose of life is to live. Are you making this stuff up as you go? It sounds like something I would find on a fortune cookie.

I will try to make it easy for you.

integral: (1) of, pertaining to, or belonging as a part of the whole.
(2) necessary to the completeness of the whole

What is the part and what is the whole? If the former "death" and the latter "life", then that would make death necessary for me to live (per the definition). See the problem? I'm not truly living until I die.

I'm sorry cholla I thought you had read 2)?
NECESSARY TO COMPLETENESS OF THE WHOLE...................that means life, in this context.
I really hope that you understand.
Here is a simple question.
How can anything die?

By ceasing to live. Their life is over, done. No more life. Death is not a part of life, it is the absence of it.

Did you see that cholla, did you see it? Apparently if there is no life then there is no DEATH, I guess you've just proved the integral part. Well done, I knew you would eventually.
In animal terms I hope you understand that the ONLY cause of death is........ what?
C'mon you're very close, tell me.

I'm not sure, but for humans the top one is cardiovascular disease.

[southern cross]

integral: (1) of, pertaining to, or belonging as a part of the whole.
(2) necessary to the completeness of the whole

part: (1) a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent

life: (1) the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

death: (1) the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism

From these definitions from dictionary.com, how is life any part of death? It seems to me that death is the total absence of life, not part of it, the end of it.

And aside from the rude and unhelpful remarks, where are you getting these principles? The first principle of life apparently is death. And the purpose of life is to live. Are you making this stuff up as you go? It sounds like something I would find on a fortune cookie.

I will try to make it easy for you.

integral: (1) of, pertaining to, or belonging as a part of the whole.
(2) necessary to the completeness of the whole

What is the part and what is the whole? If the former "death" and the latter "life", then that would make death necessary for me to live (per the definition). See the problem? I'm not truly living until I die.

I'm sorry cholla I thought you had read 2)?
NECESSARY TO COMPLETENESS OF THE WHOLE...................that means life, in this context.
I really hope that you understand.
Here is a simple question.
How can anything die?

By ceasing to live. Their life is over, done. No more life. Death is not a part of life, it is the absence of it.

Did you see that cholla, did you see it? Apparently if there is no life then there is no DEATH, I guess you've just proved the integral part. Well done, I knew you would eventually.
In animal terms I hope you understand that the ONLY cause of death is........ what?
C'mon you're very close, tell me.

I'm not sure, but for humans the top one is cardiovascular disease.

I didn't ask for a major cause cholla. I asked for the ONLY cause.
Do enjoy your fantasy life cholla.
But you will find that reality is so much better, if you ever approach it let alone embrace it.
Life is for Living.

[Peter]

When does a fervent hope become an actual belief and will the believer recognize the difference? Based on years of debate I don't think they will.

...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

or rather
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Faith is the foundation of Christianity and it is based upon hope that is not seen, that is, unproven.

Let me try and make heads or tails of this. It seems to me that you're saying faith is wishing so hard for something that it seems to take on substance and gives the faithful a conviction in unproven things.

OK, I believe that's right and I'd say that only in religion is this kind of faith something that won't get you killed outright. I seriously doubt that you approach anything else in life with that level of faith.

Also, do I need to point out that in psychology conviction in things unseen is called psychosis but I guess if lots of people have the same psychosis it's just called religion.

While it is expected that non-believers do not understand the ground of our faith in that it comes from GOD HIMself, to attack faith is to attack the essential reality of the Christian experience. We usually expect such attacks from those dedicated to evil, not ordinary people...

Like a lie, if believed, destroys someone's take on reality, that is, makes them a little bit insane (not dealing with a true reality), an attack on the concept of faith undermines their mental balance...good luck with that. Romans 8:31 If God is for us, who can be against us?

Peace, Ted

Yeah, peace to you to my friend. You generally say things I find interesting.

I'm just trying to parse the two paragraphs above. Let's see. God himself gives you hope(faith) and without that hope you lose your christian experience. Yeah, I can buy that. Atheists don't organize their lives around the hope for unproven things. Personally I think it's a huge waste of time and energy. Then you seem to be saying that an attack on wishful thinking(faith) can only be done by someone dedicated to evil?!

Did you ever try to convince a child that the boogey man wasn't under their bed? Did you feel like you were dedicated to evil while doing that? No? Well neither do I when rationally discussing faith with a christian.

Any comment I make to your last statement would be pure speculation because I don't know what you're trying to say.

[ttruscott]

Like a lie, if believed, destroys someone's take on reality, that is, makes them a little bit insane (not dealing with a true reality)......

(Bold added by me)

How does a Christian who has faith (belief) in the bible/God/the supernatural etc., know if they are believing a lie or not?

In my opinion, they can't - due to the fact they believe their information comes from God (whether it be scriptural, personal revelation, Holy spirit, etc.) and so their information cannot be wrong/false. In believing that your information, in whatever form, cannot be wrong, one removes the ability to see a lie, no matter how glaring it is.

Blinding yourself to the possibility of being wrong removes the ability to determine if you are right.

I'm not saying that religious people are all insane, however faith enables people to VERY EASILY believe a lie. Christians must also agree with this, as by claiming that theirs is the one true religion, all the other religions are lies, believed by thousands and even millions of people.

Your description is certainly not how I nor my friends experience our faith...

Because our faith is "not seen" that is, it is unproven, we are happy to wait for the proof and it is the anti-Christ who demands proof before committment but that is not by faith but by proof which cannot save us from sin: Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?

But hope that is seen that is, proven,which is without faith, is no hope at all. UNPROVEN HOPE and FAITH are integrally linked in our salvation and in our being elected to heaven.

Who were the only people who knew who Jesus was, by proof, not faith?
Mark 1:24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!" ... Demons.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

When does a fervent hope become an actual belief and will the believer recognize the difference? Based on years of debate I don't think they will.

...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

or rather
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Faith is the foundation of Christianity and it is based upon hope that is not seen, that is, unproven.

Let me try and make heads or tails of this. It seems to me that you're saying faith is wishing so hard for something that it seems to take on substance and gives the faithful a conviction in unproven things.

Of course you'd say that and prove once again anything can be perverted. Who said that the strength of hope is what saves or is what powers faith? No one but you, and your definition is false. It is believing that is necessary, not the fervency of your belief.

...

While it is expected that non-believers do not understand the ground of our faith in that it comes from GOD HIMself, to attack faith is to attack the essential reality of the Christian experience. We usually expect such attacks from those dedicated to evil, not ordinary people...

Like a lie, if believed, destroys someone's take on reality, that is, makes them a little bit insane (not dealing with a true reality), an attack on the concept of faith undermines their mental balance...good luck with that. Romans 8:31 If God is for us, who can be against us?

Peace, Ted

Yeah, peace to you to my friend. You generally say things I find interesting.

I'm just trying to parse the two paragraphs above. Let's see. God himself gives you hope(faith) and without that hope you lose your christian experience. Yeah, I can buy that. Atheists don't organize their lives around the hope for unproven things.

...

Of course they do, all the time in all things. They just refuse to talk about it. Every time you plan for an unproven or unprovable future you are using faith in the Christian manner. Commit to a mortgage to buy a house for your family in the hope that they will get to live in it safely and it will be money well spent - that is faith. Work hard and save your money to send kids to college, with no proof they will live that long nor that they will want to go nor that they have the mental capacity to go, is a hope it will all work out and you won't need the money for something else...faith, based upon unproven hope.

It is you who are trying to make it some grand and secretive cultish thing, not Christians. But along with our ordinary faith about ordinary worldly things, we also hope YHWH is GOD and in Christ we will inherit eternal life. Do you stop living your life because your hopes are sometimes dashed? Neither should a Christian stop believing because someone attacks their faith, their hope, their salvation.

Even the belief that there is no GOD is an unproven belief which has a tinge of hope that HE is not GOD because if HE is GOD, it will go bad for atheists...

So you can drop the magic of fervent belief from your anti-Christian attacks, since it is just a strawman with no reality in Christian doctrine.

Peace, Ted

[Peter]

Let me try and make heads or tails of this. It seems to me that you're saying faith is wishing so hard for something that it seems to take on substance and gives the faithful a conviction in unproven things.

Of course you'd say that and prove once again anything can be perverted. Who said that the strength of hope is what saves or is what powers faith? No one but you, and your definition is false. It is believing that is necessary, not the fervency of your belief.

It seems to me you're just splitting hairs with your, "it's believing that's necessary, not the strength of the belief."

While it is expected that non-believers do not understand the ground of our faith in that it comes from GOD HIMself, to attack faith is to attack the essential reality of the Christian experience. We usually expect such attacks from those dedicated to evil, not ordinary people...

Like a lie, if believed, destroys someone's take on reality, that is, makes them a little bit insane (not dealing with a true reality), an attack on the concept of faith undermines their mental balance...good luck with that. Romans 8:31 If God is for us, who can be against us?

Peace, Ted

Yeah, peace to you to my friend. You generally say things I find interesting.

I'm just trying to parse the two paragraphs above. Let's see. God himself gives you hope(faith) and without that hope you lose your christian experience. Yeah, I can buy that. Atheists don't organize their lives around the hope for unproven things.

Of course they do, all the time in all things. They just refuse to talk about it. Every time you plan for an unproven or unprovable future you are using faith in the Christian manner. Commit to a mortgage to buy a house for your family in the hope that they will get to live in it safely and it will be money well spent - that is faith. Work hard and save your money to send kids to college, with no proof they will live that long nor that they will want to go nor that they have the mental capacity to go, is a hope it will all work out and you won't need the money for something else...faith, based upon unproven hope.

More wishful thinking on your part, equating rational expectations with religious faith but, you're right, a better descriptor for Religious Faith is UNEVIDENCED.

It is you who are trying to make it some grand and secretive cultish thing, not Christians. But along with our ordinary faith about ordinary worldly things, we also hope YHWH is GOD and in Christ we will inherit eternal life. Do you stop living your life because your hopes are sometimes dashed? Neither should a Christian stop believing because someone attacks their faith, their hope, their salvation.

What is with you guys and eternal life? Have you even thought about it? Death is exactly what makes life precious. Why aren't christians offing themselves constantly to achieve eternal life if you believe it so fervently?

Even the belief that there is no GOD is an unproven belief which has a tinge of hope that HE is not GOD because if HE is GOD, it will go bad for atheists...

I get that all the time! "You're just afraid there is a god and he'll burn you forever for your wicked ways." No, I'm not. I disbelieve in gods for the same reasons you don't believe in allah or zeus or any of the thousands of gods invented by mankind down through the ages. Are you afraid Thor will pound your head flat for disbelieving in him?

Also, I personally can't bring myself to believe in any god who would punish me, a good decent human being, simply because I didn't believe in him. Such a god is beneath contempt IMO. Hey, maybe that's my problem, I just haven't found a god yet that's worthy of my worship. Yeah, I think that's it.

So you can drop the magic of fervent belief from your anti-Christian attacks, since it is just a strawman with no reality in Christian doctrine.

Peace, Ted

I'll not drop it Ted. You read the OP yes? You tell me, at what level of fervency does hope become belief(faith)? Does it require just a little hope or does it demand huge gobs of dripping hope before it turns into actual belief and can you tell the difference?

PS - Don't be so afraid of death. If you look at all of time from the big bang to the energy death of the universe one human lifetime is nothing. We essentially spend eternity dead so let's make the best of our very brief moment in the sun and stop worrying so much about what's next. Our only immortality is what we leave behind.

Thanks for the lively debate.

Peace, Peter