Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity?

[Moses Yoder]

I don't normally copy and paste an article but this is great stuff. At the end I have a question.

The morning after Chick-fil-A day
AUGUST 2, 2012 BY MIKE PATZ 1 COMMENT

Its the morning after the Chick-fil-A drama and Im still chewing.

I remember the day I was sitting next to an incredibly nice gay guy, enjoying a really good conversation when he dropped the ultimate conversation-killer.

What do you do for a living?

I hate that question. I hate that question because people cant help but size you up when they hear the answer. I hate that question because were already prone to think of ourselves as human doings instead of human beings. I hate that question because of what it does to people when they find out what I do.

Ive often tried to find ways around the question. Ive told people I work with non-profit organizations (this is true). Ive told people that I write (this is true). Ive even told people that I am a spiritual guru that assists people in opening their third eye (I really like this one). For whatever reason, on that day, I just cut to the chase. I work as a pastor of a church.

Everything changed. His next words went something like this:

Listen, Im gay and Im content with who I am. Im sure you are going to say that I was not born this way, and I wont argue the point. For a significant part of my childhood I was violated by a neighbor and then an uncle. Did that play a role in my sexual orientation? Possibly. I also know many people that had a trouble-free childhood and they turned out very happily gay. Regardless of how it occurred, this is who I am now and I make no apologies for the man I have become. If God has a problem with a man who tries to be true to himself, then I have a problem with a God that allows these kinds of things to happen to kids like me in the first place.

I kept thinking how much easier it would have been if I said I was a writer.


Fortunately, Jesus has a way of showing up in the middle of conversations just like these, and on that day He did not disappoint. My friend shared his heart, and I shared mine. Ive never seen people change via argument, which is why I prefer to help people taste and see that the Lord is good.

This is where Christians tend to blow it.

They taste really bad. They serve up some really Biblical truth in some really nauseating ways. They major on minors and minor on majors. They tend to be extremely unaware of their pride, and pride is like bad breath " everybody knows you have it, except for you. Its always easy to scream the loudest about sins you do not personally struggle with.

So why are we yelling?

Im still not sure why Christians are so militant in their opposition of homosexual immorality while they seem to go so mild with their opposition of heterosexual immorality. I hear the concern about homosexuality and the catch phrase is often family values: Imagine how much it will mess up a child who is being raised by two women, the reasoning goes. A kid needs both a father and a mother, we say. Yet the gays I speak with often wonder how the church can talk about family values when 50-60% of Christian couples divorce. Talk about family values. So a community of people that do not stay married is trying to talk to us about marital morality. How ironic.

In light of the fact that Christians have just as much pre-marital sex and watch just as much porn and divorce just as frequently why arent we more embarrassed to speak out on the issue of homosexual sin? Good question.

One guy said, Its funny how you can claim the grace of God to cover heterosexual sin while saying that homosexual sin is beyond the reach of Gods grace.

That brings me to all the Chick"fil-A drama.

I get why Chick-fil-A day looked so annoying to so many people yesterday. I understand why people have planned a kiss-in this Friday. And I can see why people shake their heads when they read yet another homophobic Facebook post.

Church people ask, why wont our culture repent? My answer: because repentance is a learned behavior. Someone has to model it. I tell parents that its silly to expect a child to repent when they have never seen a parent repent. And its futile to wait for a culture to repent when a culture has never seen the Church repent.

Is the real problem with our culture the unrepentant gay community? No. Its an unrepentant Church.

I am so sorry today for all the hatred that Christians have dished out toward gays. I am so sorry for all of the homophobic sarcasm that has come from the pulpits of Christian ministers. I am so sorry for the way we pick and choose which sins to condemn. I am so sorry that we have claimed to follow Jesus while we neglected widows and orphans, and then engaged in gossip and gluttony. I am so sorry that we have provided such a bad example for the rest of society to follow. Im embarrassed, Im ashamed, and I repent. Im serious. I repent.

Yet Im also concerned that when our culture most needs to hear truth, Christians dont know how to tell it.

Weve come to a dangerous moment in culture, and Christians are ill-equipped to handle it. We have reached the point where disagreement is now seen as hatred. I read an article today where a woman was appealing to Christians to recognize their hateful crimes against the homosexual community. I nodded in agreement, but decided to keep reading to see how she itemized these crimes. Paragraph after paragraph described the hurt and rejection resulting from these offenses, but it took a while to get to the actual crime: Christians claim that homosexuality is a sin. I was stunned. Disagreement was equated with hate.

Christians have a substantial challenge on their hands because every generation and every culture is going to disagree with Gods truth at some point. How interesting that our USAmerican culture considers Christianity to be closed-minded on the issue of sexual morality, while the majority of world religions are in agreement in opposition to the USA position on sexuality. Is USA culture not closed-minded for claiming that all these other religions are wrong? Is it not hypocrisy to say that we will be tolerant with everybody " except the people we consider intolerant. Closed-mindedness is not just a religious thing, its a human thing.

If ever Christians needed some good breath, it is now.

Because we have to kiss this world with the truth of God.

The problem is, no matter how good your kiss, your breath can ruin the whole experience. And no matter how much truth we bring, if it does not drip with grace and humility, it always falls flat.

Im not asking Christians to stop telling the truth, Im asking them to brush their teeth.

What does that look like? The apostle Paul said to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. (Titus 3:2)

Can you imagine what would happen if an entire chunk of Christians decided to embrace the Titus 3:2 approach? Will people be staging protests and kiss-ins to protest Chick-fil-A? Maybe. But the way of Jesus is to speak evil of no one. Has Chick-fil-A been bullied? Yes. But the kingdom of Jesus response is to avoid quarreling. Is there more drama to come as our culture becomes increasingly polarized? Of course. But if God is our Father, then we have to start showing the family resemblance, being gentle and showing perfect courtesy. This should have an effect on the way we post our thoughts on Facebook. Or talk to angry people at work. Or wait in line at Chick-fil-A.

You see, we cant shrink back on truth-telling or we dishonor the very Gospel. But when we bring the truth of Jesus we have to do it in the Spirit of Jesus.

Or stop being surprised when our culture doesnt want a kiss.

Is homosexuality worse than heterosexual infidelity? If not, why do Christians hate gay people so much? If the two are equally bad, why do so many Christians who would never be gay cheat on their wife?

[Allahakbar]

Even if Jesus had directly stated that homosexuality was wrong...........................

Thank you for that. We've been saying exactly that for 10 pages. Jesus never said that homosexuality is wrong.
Game over.

Wrong. It speaks of marriage. Jesus spoke of marriage when asked about divorce. Jesus pointed to what God established as marriage and what that purpose was intended for, that being to bring life into the world

He doesn't mention, in that verse, the purpose for bringing life into the world. (see my sig)

Wrong. Jesus did in fact say that the purpose of marriage was to bring life into the world. The two shall become one flesh is how he said it. That is to say the sperm, the flesh of a man, and the egg, the flesh of a woman, joining and becoming one flesh, that being a child.

Read my Sig. The verse doesn't say that at all. YOU say that.

Furthermore, while you say that Jesus does not speak about homosexuality he in fact does....

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Jesus says that a man shall not divorce his wife except in the event of fornication. Let us see what fornication is defined as. ...

The word that is translated as fornicate is the Greek word

Strong's Concordance

Transliteration: porneia
Biblical usage:
1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Well it looks like homosexual sex is grounds for divorce, so is having sex with just about anything including have heterosexual sex. Well I'll keep that in mind. BTW in the verse you quoted it says that having sex with a divorcee is adultery and in your definitions you claim it to be fornication, can't quite figure out which sin you want to declare?

So you can try to make believe that Jesus did not say that homosexuality was wrong but in fact the scriptures indicate that he said it was wrong as well as all forms of fornication. What Jesus did not do, is use the word homosexuality. Instead he used the word porneia to cover many forms of sexual immorality rather than just listing them one at a time.

You are dead right, if the verse actually quotes Jesus, that he said it is grounds for divorce, if one were to accept all of the definitions you provided even the one quoted as wrong, not very convincing is it?. Well done. Nothing about it being a sin though. So you see it's not I who needs to create make believe, it's you as your post so definitively shows.
Thanks for your help.

[otseng]

The 10 commandments are total BS.

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[otseng]

My grandsons would be amused at your attempts.

Unfortunately for you and 99 and every religious person on here who has claimed their right to bigotry based upon the teachings of Jesus, YOU FAILED.

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[Dantalion]

[Replying to post 102 by otseng]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry


Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

I wasn't informed bigotry was a bad word to use.
It describes a certain behavior that corresponds 100% to 99%atheism's posts on the subject.
In the english language there is a word for the sentiment expressed in those posts.
Would you moderate me calling you a vegetarian if you claim not to eat meat ?

[Cewakiyelo]

Furthermore, while you say that Jesus does not speak about homosexuality he in fact does....

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Jesus says that a man shall not divorce his wife except in the event of fornication. Let us see what fornication is defined as. ...

The word that is translated as fornicate is the Greek word

Strong's Concordance

Transliteration: porneia
Biblical usage:
1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Well it looks like homosexual sex is grounds for divorce, so is having sex with just about anything including have heterosexual sex. Well I'll keep that in mind. BTW in the verse you quoted it says that having sex with a divorcee is adultery and in your definitions you claim it to be fornication, can't quite figure out which sin you want to declare?

So you can try to make believe that Jesus did not say that homosexuality was wrong but in fact the scriptures indicate that he said it was wrong as well as all forms of fornication. What Jesus did not do, is use the word homosexuality. Instead he used the word porneia to cover many forms of sexual immorality rather than just listing them one at a time.

You are dead right, if the verse actually quotes Jesus, that he said it is grounds for divorce, if one were to accept all of the definitions you provided even the one quoted as wrong, not very convincing is it?. Well done. Nothing about it being a sin though. So you see it's not I who needs to create make believe, it's you as your post so definitively shows.
Thanks for your help.

Not very convincing for those whom want to live in their sin. Not convincing for those that want to cling to their fleshly way rather than yielding to God's ways. But for those who desire God over selfish ways than very convincing. Convincing to those who want to clean up their lives and walk with God rather than remaining sexual deviants of every form. It matters not the form it takes. Divorced sex, unmarried sex, computer or phone sex, homosexuality, bestiality, it all amounts to sexual deviancy and is sin in the eyes of God. If it is outside the confines of marriage than it serves no useful purpose in God's world.

It does not matter if we like it our not. It don't matter if we disagree with it. it isn't a democracy. God's ways are his ways. If we love our sins more than God we show him we deserve what ever punishment we get. Even if that is death.

Sin is sin, do worry homosexuals don't own the patent on it. Yours is no more special than anyone else.

[Allahakbar]

Furthermore, while you say that Jesus does not speak about homosexuality he in fact does....

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Jesus says that a man shall not divorce his wife except in the event of fornication. Let us see what fornication is defined as. ...

The word that is translated as fornicate is the Greek word

Strong's Concordance

Transliteration: porneia
Biblical usage:
1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Well it looks like homosexual sex is grounds for divorce, so is having sex with just about anything including have heterosexual sex. Well I'll keep that in mind. BTW in the verse you quoted it says that having sex with a divorcee is adultery and in your definitions you claim it to be fornication, can't quite figure out which sin you want to declare?

So you can try to make believe that Jesus did not say that homosexuality was wrong but in fact the scriptures indicate that he said it was wrong as well as all forms of fornication. What Jesus did not do, is use the word homosexuality. Instead he used the word porneia to cover many forms of sexual immorality rather than just listing them one at a time.

You are dead right, if the verse actually quotes Jesus, that he said it is grounds for divorce, if one were to accept all of the definitions you provided even the one quoted as wrong, not very convincing is it?. Well done. Nothing about it being a sin though. So you see it's not I who needs to create make believe, it's you as your post so definitively shows.
Thanks for your help.

Not very convincing for those whom want to live in their sin. Not convincing for those that want to cling to their fleshly way rather than yielding to God's ways. But for those who desire God over selfish ways than very convincing. Convincing to those who want to clean up their lives and walk with God rather than remaining sexual deviants of every form. It matters not the form it takes. Divorced sex, unmarried sex, computer or phone sex, homosexuality, bestiality, it all amounts to sexual deviancy and is sin in the eyes of God. If it is outside the confines of marriage than it serves no useful purpose in God's world.

It does not matter if we like it our not. It don't matter if we disagree with it. it isn't a democracy. God's ways are his ways. If we love our sins more than God we show him we deserve what ever punishment we get. Even if that is death.

Sin is sin, do worry homosexuals don't own the patent on it. Yours is no more special than anyone else.

I keep asking
Provide a passage quoting Jesus where he declares homosexuality a sin.

[KCKID]

Furthermore, while you say that Jesus does not speak about homosexuality he in fact does....

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Jesus says that a man shall not divorce his wife except in the event of fornication. Let us see what fornication is defined as. ...

The word that is translated as fornicate is the Greek word

Strong's Concordance

Transliteration: porneia
Biblical usage:
1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Well it looks like homosexual sex is grounds for divorce, so is having sex with just about anything including have heterosexual sex. Well I'll keep that in mind. BTW in the verse you quoted it says that having sex with a divorcee is adultery and in your definitions you claim it to be fornication, can't quite figure out which sin you want to declare?

So you can try to make believe that Jesus did not say that homosexuality was wrong but in fact the scriptures indicate that he said it was wrong as well as all forms of fornication. What Jesus did not do, is use the word homosexuality. Instead he used the word porneia to cover many forms of sexual immorality rather than just listing them one at a time.

You are dead right, if the verse actually quotes Jesus, that he said it is grounds for divorce, if one were to accept all of the definitions you provided even the one quoted as wrong, not very convincing is it?. Well done. Nothing about it being a sin though. So you see it's not I who needs to create make believe, it's you as your post so definitively shows.
Thanks for your help.

Not very convincing for those whom want to live in their sin. Not convincing for those that want to cling to their fleshly way rather than yielding to God's ways. But for those who desire God over selfish ways than very convincing. Convincing to those who want to clean up their lives and walk with God rather than remaining sexual deviants of every form. It matters not the form it takes. Divorced sex, unmarried sex, computer or phone sex, homosexuality, bestiality, it all amounts to sexual deviancy and is sin in the eyes of God. If it is outside the confines of marriage than it serves no useful purpose in God's world.

It does not matter if we like it our not. It don't matter if we disagree with it. it isn't a democracy. God's ways are his ways. If we love our sins more than God we show him we deserve what ever punishment we get. Even if that is death.

Sin is sin, do worry homosexuals don't own the patent on it. Yours is no more special than anyone else.

I keep asking
Provide a passage quoting Jesus where he declares homosexuality a sin.

I suspect that this is one of the most frustrating questions that one can ask an anti-gay Christian. For me, I have little interest about what Paul, Jude, et al, might have to say of things about which they had no education. Besides, a Christian is a follower of Jesus and NOT Paul, Jude, et al. The epistles of Paul were included in the NT canon by a luck of the draw. Why they are considered 'divine' by Christians I have no idea other than their probably having been 'brainwashed' into believing so.

That said, over the months I've provided ample examples of other interpretations of those NT scriptures that people use to condemn homosexuality. While I do believe that the Bible characters I've previously mentioned WOULD probably disapprove of homosexuality in much the same way as some, even many, Christians do today ...the scriptures themselves don't address this. As said many times, these particular scriptures are pertaining to the practices of idolatry/temple prostitution. They are not the personal opinions of what Paul, Jude, et al, believe about homosexuality per se.

[noshameinChrist]

[Replying to post 106 by KCKID]

Actually, your question is not frustrating at all (at least not for me - as a Christian). I do think however that it is steeped in absolute rejection of scripture. I think you know that scripture opposes homosexual relationships.

I think it is more courageous to simply say "I reject this" instead of bantering about with insincere questions about whether Jesus specifically and expressly condemns homosexual relationships.

Bottom line, it is your CHOICE whether or not to follow Christ. Nobody can take that right to choose away from you. I personally would encourage to follow Christ, but I realize I cannot make you do it.

The Bible teach that at one time period God overlooked ignorance, but now he commands all men to repent (Acts 17:30). Whether or not you understand or believe this will not make it any less true.

[Allahakbar]

[Replying to post 106 by KCKID]

Actually, your question is not frustrating at all (at least not for me - as a Christian). I do think however that it is steeped in absolute rejection of scripture. I think you know that scripture opposes homosexual relationships.

I think it is more courageous to simply say "I reject this" instead of bantering about with insincere questions about whether Jesus specifically and expressly condemns homosexual relationships.

Bottom line, it is your CHOICE whether or not to follow Christ. Nobody can take that right to choose away from you. I personally would encourage to follow Christ, but I realize I cannot make you do it.

The Bible teach that at one time period God overlooked ignorance, but now he commands all men to repent (Acts 17:30). Whether or not you understand or believe this will not make it any less true.

And if you wish to claim christianity and to follow the teachings of christ and christ makes absolutely no mention of homosexuality then you by rejecting homosexuality on the basis of christs teachings are committing HERESY.
Do you follow christ's teaching?

[noshameinChrist]

[Replying to post 106 by KCKID]

Actually, your question is not frustrating at all (at least not for me - as a Christian). I do think however that it is steeped in absolute rejection of scripture. I think you know that scripture opposes homosexual relationships.

I think it is more courageous to simply say "I reject this" instead of bantering about with insincere questions about whether Jesus specifically and expressly condemns homosexual relationships.

Bottom line, it is your CHOICE whether or not to follow Christ. Nobody can take that right to choose away from you. I personally would encourage to follow Christ, but I realize I cannot make you do it.

The Bible teach that at one time period God overlooked ignorance, but now he commands all men to repent (Acts 17:30). Whether or not you understand or believe this will not make it any less true.

And if you wish to claim christianity and to follow the teachings of christ and christ makes absolutely no mention of homosexuality then you by rejecting homosexuality on the basis of christs teachings are committing HERESY.
Do you follow christ's teaching?

As I have said already, I believe Christ has spoken on the subject. This was done through at least of one of his apostles - Paul (Roman 1:27). In addition, when Christ spoke of the subject of sexual relationships it was always between a man and a woman (e.g. Matthew 5:31ff). You simply are wrong my friend.