Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Danmark]

The appropriate standard of evidence is not written in the sky. This guy has all the right to consider your evidence of evolution insufficient, irrational as it may be, just as you may or may not accept his first hand assurances of God's existence.

This raises a good question, well... more than one.

Should the level of sufficiency, or burden of proof be the same whether it is for evidence of evolution or 'assurances of God's existence?'

Is it reasonable to demand 'absolute' proof of any proposition?

As I answered on a different subtopic:

Sonofason wrote:

Well, when I was in college, I did take a course called "Evolution". When I was taking this course, I do believe seeing and hearing compelling arguments, but I do not recall witnessing any substantial evidence that convinced me that evolution was absolutely true. I do believe that evolution makes logical sense. But I've seen no overwhelming evidence that evolution is absolutely true. . . .

[emphasis applied]
Earlier you refused to answer my direct question about this. Now you have... answered,... insisting on 'absolute' evidence. Now we can end the silliness, because as you know there is no absolute evidence of anything. Phrased this way, it is a college Freshman's game. I know it well because I used to play it myself then as I did in high school.

The freshman challenges his mates, saying they can prove nothing absolutely. They take up the challenge while he grins smugly because he has played the game before. He tells them they cannot even prove the book they think they see on the table is really there. They think they have him. They make the usual proofs.

Then he plays the solipsist card. He explains their minds may be being manipulated at this very moment while they lay on an operating table in the hospital, or on an alien spaceship.

There is a very good reason why the highest burden of proof in a court of law is 'proof beyond reasonable doubt.' No one can prove anything beyond unreasonable doubt. Nothing can be proved absolutely. I submit that is why you refuse to answer the simple question, "What evidence would you consider sufficient?"

[no evidence no belief]

Just answer the question.

Sonofason, I will ask you one more time, and if you don't answer it will be obvious that you yourself realize your position has been thoroughly defeated.

Please provide evidence the earth is a globe.

[10CC]

Just wait until Psalm 83 takes place, when Damascus is lain to waste. This is an event that you will witness in the very near future.

I'll let nenb destroy the rest.
Who is prophesied to destroy Damascus?

Psalm 83
A song, a psalm of Asaph.

1 O God, do not be silent!
Do not ignore us! Do not be inactive, O God!
2 For look, your enemies are making a commotion;
those who hate you are hostile.
3 They carefully plot against your people,
and make plans to harm the ones you cherish.
4 They say, “Come on, let’s annihilate them so they are no longer a nation!
Then the name of Israel will be remembered no more.�
5 Yes, they devise a unified strategy;
they form an alliance against you.
6 It includes the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek,
Philistia and the inhabitants of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has allied with them,
lending its strength to the descendants of Lot. (Selah)
9 Do to them as you did to Midian—
as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the Kishon River!
10 They were destroyed at Endor;
their corpses were like manure on the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
and all their rulers like Zebah and Zalmunna,
12 who said, “Let’s take over the pastures of God!�
13 O my God, make them like dead thistles,
like dead weeds blown away by the wind!
14 Like the fire that burns down the forest,
or the flames that consume the mountainsides,
15 chase them with your gale winds,
and terrify them with your windstorm.
16 Cover their faces with shame,
so they might seek you, O Lord.
17 May they be humiliated and continually terrified!
May they die in shame!
18 Then they will know that you alone are the Lord,
the sovereign king over all the earth.

You're right, Psalm 83 does not describe the destruction of Damascus, but only sets the stage for the destruction that will take place as described in the book of Isaiah.

"The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." (Isaiah 17:1)

So your alleged prophesies are not really prophesies unless you, in your infinite godly wisdom, link them to any number of other passages you decide are necessary to make YOUR prophesy valid?

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 1531 by Sonofason]
Sonofason.

Can you please provide evidence that the earth is a globe?

Thanks

I never said the earth was a globe. But I should have no trouble believing that the earth is a globe, because "the earth" is actually one of the definitions for the word globe. But of course I am not asserting that the earth is a globe. If you are, please provide the evidence that you have that the earth is a globe. I'd be happy to consider it, if that is your claim, assuming you provide the evidence.

[Sonofason]

What do you do with all the prophesies of the Bible? Do you not recognize that many have already come true?

This is great! You believe a prophecy came true! This is EVIDENCE of the supernatural, AND it's an opportunity to make $100.

All you have to do is present the single most convincing prophecy.

In fact, why don't you present it on this board here

"Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession: Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people: Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about; Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey. Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD."
Ezekial 36:1-11)

Israel has indeed been replanted. The nation of Israel has been reborn, out of it's desolation. It happened in 1948.

"We shall overcome, we shall overcome,
We shall overcome someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We shall overcome someday."

These are the lyrics of a key anthem of the African American civil rights movement. It's a prophecy that the african american community will be able to overcome the segregation and discrimination. The prophecy became true! We now have a black president!

Native americans, as they were being slowly defeated by european invaders, sang war songs about defeating the white devils.

Nazi propaganda included the publishing of guarantees that the Nazi movement will conquer the world.

When Mike Tyson was arrested, he swore that he'd get out and regain his world championship belt.

Osama Bin Laden made the prophecy that America would fall.

My cousin Steve said he would defeat cancer, and he did!

My friend Tommaso said he would defeat cancer and he didn't.

Whenever people are struggling, whenever they are defending themselves against an invasion, or carrying out an invasion themselves, whenever they are at war, whenever they are in danger, whenever they are suffering, whenever they are losing... THEY HOPE THAT THINGS GET BETTER FOR THEM. That's just human nature.

They express that hope that things get better by writing songs, by writing poetry, by publishing propaganda, by simply declaring they will be back, by making videos, by saying they will beat cancer, etc.

The writings about israel being reborn, just like the civil rights chants, and the slaves' spirituals, and the native american chants, and the nazi propaganda, and Mike Tyson promising to make a comeback, and Al-quaeda saying America will fall, and my loved ones saying they will beat cancer, etc, are all examples of people expressing their hope that in the future things will be the way they want them to be.

Now, sometimes people will express their hope that things go their way, and as luck would have it, things do work out for them, other times it doesn't work out. For Israel, african-americans, Mike Tyson and my cousin Steve things worked out as they hoped/predicted, for the native americans, the nazis, Al-Quaeda and my friend Steve, things didn't work out as they had hoped/predicted.

There is absolutely nothing supernatural, nothing mysterious, nothing even remotely surprising about the Israelites, just like everybody else in the world who is struggling, expressing their hope that things would get better.

That's what people do. I would be shocked if, given their suffering and stuggles, the israelites had NOT expressed their hope for victory and rebirth.


So, no. That Bible passage isn't evidence of the supernatural. It's evidence of the completely natural human tendency to express their hope that things get better when they're struggling.

Do you have any other "prophecies" you would like me to demolish?

prophesy is nothing supernatural. Prophesies come true, quite often as you have shown. The prophesy that I pointed out, which by the way were the words of God, also came true in 1948. Your tone is unwarranted. You have not demolished anything.

I actually have many prophesies I could share, but due to your tone, I have decided not to share them with you.

[instantc]

Should the level of sufficiency, or burden of proof be the same whether it is for evidence of evolution or 'assurances of God's existence?'

I don't think it should, but this guy clearly sees things differently. However, with any given claim one has to ultimately look at the evidence presented to him and simply make up his mind about whether or not it's convincing. There is no scale on which we can pile up evidence and determine at which point a claim has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, one either recognizes the sufficient credibility of the evidence or he doesn't. There is no need to keep roasting someone who obviously isn't convinced by the evidence of evolution. As you said, that is his prerogative.

Is it reasonable to demand 'absolute' proof of any proposition?

No, I don't think anything can be absolutely proven, apart from things that follow directly from the laws of logic.

There is a very good reason why the highest burden of proof in a court of law is 'proof beyond reasonable doubt.' No one can prove anything beyond unreasonable doubt.

In the court room references can be made to rules and guidelines, but in real life everyone has to decide for themselves what constitutes 'reasonable doubt'.

[Goat]

No, I don't think anything can be absolutely proven, apart from things that follow directly from the laws of logic.

.

And i say that logic along is not enough to prove anything having to do with the real world, without the input of the real world.

[Danmark]

Should the level of sufficiency, or burden of proof be the same whether it is for evidence of evolution or 'assurances of God's existence?'

I don't think it should, but this guy clearly sees things differently. However, with any given claim one has to ultimately look at the evidence presented to him and simply make up his mind about whether or not it's convincing. There is no scale on which we can pile up evidence and determine at which point a claim has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, one either recognizes the sufficient credibility of the evidence or he doesn't. There is no need to keep roasting someone who obviously isn't convinced by the evidence of evolution. As you said, that is his prerogative.

Is it reasonable to demand 'absolute' proof of any proposition?

No, I don't think anything can be absolutely proven, apart from things that follow directly from the laws of logic.

I agree with some of this, but I am unconvinced he 'sees things this way.' It is just a game he's playing. He won't take the position the Earth is a sphere. Fine. One can play games, but this one is silly and pointless. Time to move on.

I disagree, evidence is frequently 'piled up' to prove something 'beyond reasonable doubt.' It is the absurd POV of solipsism that should be reserved for discussions of philosophy, but not in the field of practical discussions about faith and science.

In this debating forum, and particularly when we are discussing evidence for the supernatural, reversion to "absolute proof", as you suggest is a pointless endeavor since nothing can satisfy that standard. To continue in that vein so you can 'claim' everything is a matter of faith is disingenuous.

[no evidence no belief]

What do you do with all the prophesies of the Bible? Do you not recognize that many have already come true?

This is great! You believe a prophecy came true! This is EVIDENCE of the supernatural, AND it's an opportunity to make $100.

All you have to do is present the single most convincing prophecy.

In fact, why don't you present it on this board here

"Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession: Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people: Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about; Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey. Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame. But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD."
Ezekial 36:1-11)

Israel has indeed been replanted. The nation of Israel has been reborn, out of it's desolation. It happened in 1948.

"We shall overcome, we shall overcome,
We shall overcome someday;
Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe,
We shall overcome someday."

These are the lyrics of a key anthem of the African American civil rights movement. It's a prophecy that the african american community will be able to overcome the segregation and discrimination. The prophecy became true! We now have a black president!

Native americans, as they were being slowly defeated by european invaders, sang war songs about defeating the white devils.

Nazi propaganda included the publishing of guarantees that the Nazi movement will conquer the world.

When Mike Tyson was arrested, he swore that he'd get out and regain his world championship belt.

Osama Bin Laden made the prophecy that America would fall.

My cousin Steve said he would defeat cancer, and he did!

My friend Tommaso said he would defeat cancer and he didn't.

Whenever people are struggling, whenever they are defending themselves against an invasion, or carrying out an invasion themselves, whenever they are at war, whenever they are in danger, whenever they are suffering, whenever they are losing... THEY HOPE THAT THINGS GET BETTER FOR THEM. That's just human nature.

They express that hope that things get better by writing songs, by writing poetry, by publishing propaganda, by simply declaring they will be back, by making videos, by saying they will beat cancer, etc.

The writings about israel being reborn, just like the civil rights chants, and the slaves' spirituals, and the native american chants, and the nazi propaganda, and Mike Tyson promising to make a comeback, and Al-quaeda saying America will fall, and my loved ones saying they will beat cancer, etc, are all examples of people expressing their hope that in the future things will be the way they want them to be.

Now, sometimes people will express their hope that things go their way, and as luck would have it, things do work out for them, other times it doesn't work out. For Israel, african-americans, Mike Tyson and my cousin Steve things worked out as they hoped/predicted, for the native americans, the nazis, Al-Quaeda and my friend Steve, things didn't work out as they had hoped/predicted.

There is absolutely nothing supernatural, nothing mysterious, nothing even remotely surprising about the Israelites, just like everybody else in the world who is struggling, expressing their hope that things would get better.

That's what people do. I would be shocked if, given their suffering and stuggles, the israelites had NOT expressed their hope for victory and rebirth.


So, no. That Bible passage isn't evidence of the supernatural. It's evidence of the completely natural human tendency to express their hope that things get better when they're struggling.

Do you have any other "prophecies" you would like me to demolish?

prophesy is nothing supernatural.

Oh, ok!

Just for a moment I thought you realized that you were writing on a thread about evidence for the supernatural. My mistake - you're obviously oblivious of this simple fact.

As long as you agree that israelites wishing for things to get better is no different from Mike Tyson wishing for things to get better, and that neither of those is even remotely supernatural, then we are on the same page.

I'll say it again: As long as you yourself openly declare, and promise not to recant, that bronze age barbarians scribbling on sheep skin their hope that things will get better is NOT (I repeat, NOT) evidence of the supernatural, then we are on the same page.

The prophesy that I pointed out, which by the way were the words of God

Wait. WHAT???? You JUST admitted that those scribblings are NOT supernatural, and now out of the blue you wish to assert that they were written by a supernatural invisible man in the sky?

Please IMMEDIATELY provide evidence for this invisible skydaddy!

Please check your firewall! Somebody just hacked into your computer and wrote from your debatingchristianity account that he agrees that there is nothing supernatural about bible prophecies!

Your tone is unwarranted. You have not demolished anything.

I have completely demolished the notion that the perfectly natural human impulse to hope for things to get better is in any way supernatural.

In your post you said the two contradictory statements: That the prophecy was not supernatural AND that it was authored by a supernatural being. Therefore I have demolished the argument made by at least one of the two separate individuals who seem to be posting under the sonofason username.

I actually have many prophesies I could share, but due to your tone, I have decided not to share them with you.

Well, that's your prerogative. Most Christians I speak to find it imperative to obey 1 Peter 3:15, because they love Jesus enough to honor his sacrifice on the cross, but every theist has a different way of worshiping.

[no evidence no belief]

[Replying to post 1531 by Sonofason]
Sonofason.

Can you please provide evidence that the earth is a globe?

Thanks

I never said the earth was a globe. But I should have no trouble believing that the earth is a globe, because "the earth" is actually one of the definitions for the word globe. But of course I am not asserting that the earth is a globe. If you are, please provide the evidence that you have that the earth is a globe. I'd be happy to consider it, if that is your claim, assuming you provide the evidence.

Lol. My friend, you are a MASTER of Dodgeball.


Humor aside, buddy, I really think you're dodging the question. My point is NOT that you are saying the earth is a globe. I am just asking you to provide evidence for it, based on the assumption that you agree that it is a globe. Why can't you just do that?

You either believe the earth is a globe, or you do not. Whatever your belief, it must be based on some kind of reason/evidence. I'm just asking you to share it.

Why not?