How is one saved?

[AdHoc]

Some people say you need to pray the sinner's prayer, some say believe in Jesus... is there a clear instruction from the Bible how to be saved?

[AdHoc]

Adhoc--You apparently did not understand the meaning of my post. The thread is titled how is one saved? My post was alluding to the fact there is no one who is saving anyone except ourselves saving ourselves.

I took your meaning czyz, I was just trying to be funny.

Here in this subforum the bible is considered authoritative so unless you are going to show me from the bible how there is no need to be saved and no One coming to our rescue you're jumped on board the wrong ship.

But I must say that would be an interesting adventure...

Your point is taken and it is one I have often considered and a few times it has even caused me to doubt but in all types of weather I choose to cling to my anchor of hope Jesus Christ.

But now that you mention it it does make me wonder... How does one save one's self? I will go over to the C&A subforum and pose that question.

[myth-one.com]

I don't think you have established that "reward" = "born again".

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The reward of the believers is everlasting life.

The Bible states that there are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

The characteristic separating natural and spiritual beings is longevity. Natural beings such as man perish:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

But spiritual beings live forever! Speaking of humans who shall inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels... (Luke 20:36)

Mankind dies, spirits live forever.

So the only way for a man to gain everlasting life is to become a Spirit.

And the only way to become a Spirit is to be born of the Spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

All mankind has already been born of the flesh as a physical bodied being.

Any man or woman born a second time as a Spirit is obviously "born again":

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

Believers receive their reward (everlasting life) when they are born again as spiritual beings. Those are the only beings with everlasting life.

Any man or woman not born again will perish.

Thus:

"reward" = "everlasting life"

"everlasting life" = "born again"

Therefore:

"reward" = "born again"

Hope that suffices.

[we-live-now]

51 pages and still no agreement among Christians on this most important of questions. I guess it's no wonder they have splintered into some 30,000 sects - all claiming to have it right.


Seriously, if you can't get the salvation question properly sussed out - everything else is just a colossal circle jerk, ain't it?

While agreement would be nice, the authoritative source within this forum is the Bible.

Here is what the Bible states:

There are two type of beings -- natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

The characteristic separating natural and spiritual beings is longevity. Natural beings perish while spiritual beings live forever.

All mankind is born as natural beings. All spiritual beings are born of the Spirit as spiritual beings:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The only salvation from the certain death associated with being born as a natural being is to be born again as a spirit.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The reward of being born again of the Spirit will be granted at the Second Coming:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me . . .

Once that occurs, that human is no longer a natural body -- as he or she will have an immortal spiritual body.

No human is saved until they are born again, and no one will be born again until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

To date there have been zero born again humans in the world!

Can anyone inside or outside of the 30,000 sects refute the above through the scriptures?

Until someone can, the above is the truth according to the scriptures -- under this forum.

Hey Myth,

I believe much of what you said, but I want to point out John 5:24. Jesus says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Doesn't this clearly say that once you believe you have already passed from death into eternal life? That is what I am hearing regarding this verse, that it has already happened once we believe and we are only waiting for the redemption of our natural, dead bodies at that point. Romans 8:23.

God bless,

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

Hey Myth,

I believe much of what you said, but I want to point out John 5:24. Jesus says: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Doesn't this clearly say that once you believe you have already passed from death into eternal life? That is what I am hearing regarding this verse, that it has already happened once we believe and we are only waiting for the redemption of our natural, dead bodies at that point. Romans 8:23.

One has to understand the two "deaths" defined in the Bible, and then look at the point of view of the speaker.

Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated that they were not dead, but simply asleep:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn... (Mark 5:39-40)

If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all -- as all "dead" humans (believers and nonbelievers) will live again:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Note that Jesus said Lazarus was both dead and alive at the same time. Was He mistaken when He said Lazarus was not dead, but sleeping for four days?

Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (John 11:39)

When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:

Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)

Both of Jesus' statements are true! One was from God's point of view, and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective, there is one true death, the second death. Thus after the first death of humans, God says they sleep.

Now let's consider John 5:24:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If a believer dies the first death, he rests in his grave awaiting resurrection to everlasting spiritual life.

From God's point of view, that being lived as a human, rests in his grave, and will be born again as an everlasting spirit at the Second Coming. Thus he will never die, so he has life everlasting from the time he became a believer.

=========================================================================

But the above scenerio only applies to those who "died" their first death as a believer.

Mankind has freedom of choice, and can renounce God at any time. For example, there are many who claim the title "former Christian" on this site.

Only the resting believers (they that are Christ's) are resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Suppose one is a Christian, then denies Christ and becomes a nonbeliever, then dies. That human will not be resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming because He or she did not die as a believer. Only the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming. Nonbelievers are resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming as humans.

So the gift of everlasting life cannot be bestowed at the time of accepting Jesus, because once given -- it can never be taken away! Everlasting life lasts for ever. Satan, for example, cannot be killed by God.

If humans were born again upon becoming believers, then every "former Christian" would have everlasting life. And it is not that way. Only believers shall have everlasting life. This excludes those who formerly believed.

=============================== Another Point ===============================

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and they do not mix.

And that makes sense. If one has a spiritual body, why would one also need or desire a natural physical body?

Here is one characteristic of the spiritual body:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Do you know any Christians who can move as the wind? If not, then none of them have been born again of the Spirit.

Conclusion: There are presently no "born again" Christians. All mankind has been born once, and only once, as natural physical mortal beings!

[we-live-now]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

Hey Myth,

There are MANY verses that don't fit into those beliefs. For example, how do you reconcile 2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Here are more to consider that have already come true at the cross yet some haven't fully manifested in time: http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-re ... cor+5%3A17

How do you reconcile verses like this?

we-live-now

[myth-one.com]

Hey Myth,

There are MANY verses that don't fit into those beliefs. For example, how do you reconcile 2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Here are more to consider that have already come true at the cross yet some haven't fully manifested in time: http://www.openbible.info/labs/cross-re ... cor+5%3A17

How do you reconcile verses like this?

we-live-now

The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

And man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood creature!

But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must be born again as the only remaining body type, a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God!

All of the verses you listed are very similar, describing the new creature which humans become upon believing in Jesus as their Savior.

Second Corinthians 5:17 is representative of the lot:

King James Version (KJV)

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

These verses mean that upon becoming a Christian, the old ways of living for that person have disappeared, and a new way of living has come into existence.

In no way do any of the verses negate or challenge any of my posting 512 above.

These verses fit in perfectly with what Christians are supposed to become in their world -- the physical world.

Do you know any of these new Christians creatures in this physical world which can move as the wind?

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

If not, then none of them have been born again of the Spirit.

[Burninglight]

Do you know any Christians who can move as the wind? If not, then none of them have been born again of the Spirit.!

I know Christians that can pass wind.

Conclusion: There are presently no "born again" Christians. All mankind has been born once, and only once, as natural physical mortal beings!

This is not true. If you're born once, you die twice; if you're born twice, you die once.

[myth-one.com]

Do you know any Christians who can move as the wind? If not, then none of them have been born again of the Spirit.!

I know Christians that can pass wind.

But where that wind came from is difficult to hide. So Christians that pass wind have not yet been born again of the Spirit:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

Conclusion: There are presently no "born again" Christians. All mankind has been born once, and only once, as natural physical mortal beings!

This is not true. If you're born once, you die twice; if you're born twice, you die once.

Any living physical body truly dies once, and only, once.

[Burninglight]

Do you know any Christians who can move as the wind?

I know Christians that can pass wind.

But where that wind came from is difficult to hide.

I guess that depends on what they ate and how their stomach reacts to it. lol

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by AdHoc]

Some people say you need to pray the sinner's prayer, some say believe in Jesus... is there a clear instruction from the Bible how to be saved?


shnarkle: I think that the clearest example from the bible would be John 3:3-8, which makes it clear that those who are saved are "born again". Some people get this idea that there is something that we have to do, but what did we do when we were being born? Nothing. We had nothing to do with our begetting or our birth, and the same holds true for this second birth. Jesus points out that it is the Spirit Who decides where He will go, not our will that makes these decisions. We don't have the ability to summon the Holy Spirit (vs.8)

Paul elaborates on this in his letter to the Romans. This is the foundation of his doctrine of election. Again, it isn't his doctrine of what we elect to do or say, but who God elects. Paul makes it clear that there is nothing that we can do to gain God's favor, nothing we can do to cause God to elect us. Moreover, what we do after God has elected us is only through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.

So in a nutshell, We are saved by the sovereign will of God.