references to God

[Elijah John]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

If so, why do you accept control of speech from the political Left, but not from a politically neutral perspective in matters of Spiritual terminology? Is there a double standard here?

Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

[Ooberman]

I try to make my points. Im not a good enough thinker or writer that i feel a need to carefully consider my potential audience.

The problem i have with your request is that, in essence, you are asking us to write differently than we think. You are asking us to lie. You are asking us to seem as if we hold a position we dont, all because you find some talk indelicate to your ears.

Why dont you write it"? Because its not your belief.

If we are going to discuss our beliefs, accept that some people use terms you might not like.

I dont think you were trying to be rude. However, your position is the same we atheists have lived under before we "came out" as atheists. We were to assume everyone is a theist and speak as though we were.

No more. I wont do it. I think theism is silly. Ridiculous. I would hope you all stop being theists, which is why i am here. Its been a hard road to think for myself and the last thing i want to do is return to the days when i coddled theistic beliefs in others.

God is not "He", it's not anything but a concept. Using a term that suggests i have respect for it is completely contrary to any point i hope to make here.

I may respect you, which is why i care that you stop being a theist, but gods can (censored).

[connermt]

[Replying to post 15 by Peter]

I don't respect gods any more than I respect leprechauns. I don't respect any persons belief in gods or leprechauns.

And there's no good reason why you should.
So many people think they need respect - forgetting that's something that's earned. There are too many people alive today that expect things to be handed to them because, in this case, 'I believe in god!'
It's ridiculous to an extreme that it's becoming problematic to society. There's way too much of a sense of entitlement with people - especially christians.
It's really. But those who demand respect instead of earning it only show themselves to be the ultimate fool. And the rest of us sit back, watch and just laaauugh

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 21 by Ooberman]

Fine, I understand your position. At least you seem to understand I was making a request and not a demand.

[dianaiad]

[Replying to post 15 by Peter]

I don't respect gods any more than I respect leprechauns. I don't respect any persons belief in gods or leprechauns.

And there's no good reason why you should.
So many people think they need respect - forgetting that's something that's earned. There are too many people alive today that expect things to be handed to them because, in this case, 'I believe in god!'
It's ridiculous to an extreme that it's becoming problematic to society. There's way too much of a sense of entitlement with people - especially christians.
It's really. But those who demand respect instead of earning it only show themselves to be the ultimate fool. And the rest of us sit back, watch and just laaauugh

Moderator Warning



On this forum, respect is expected from everybody. If you wish to receive it, you need to give it. It's one thing to disagree with a position. It's quite another to attack the holder of that position personally, or to mock and ridicule. This is also against the rules.


Please review our Rules.

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[wiploc]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

So why not show us Theists the same respect, even if you do not respect our beliefs?
The "why or why not" is the question for debate, and is this request in and of itself yet another attempt of a Theist to control behavior?

If so, why do you accept control of speech from the political Left, but not from a politically neutral perspective in matters of Spiritual terminology? Is there a double standard here?

Or what may be some alternatives that every one could be happy with?

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

How about as a sign of respect for us, you let us use our own words? I see no reason why we should be forced by your perception of civility.

"It" is fine. God is an "it". It's a concept, and even if it exists, it's not a He or She.

It's not a big deal.

It was a simple request, not a demand. If you care about the sensibilities of us Theists, it is appreciated. But I take from your answer that you do not care, and your contempt is noted.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

EJ, this response surprised me. I don't think it is justified. He didn't do anything you didn't do. If he was contemptuous, so were you.

[otseng]

Moderator Comment

Please drop the discussion if another poster is contemptuous.

Please review the Rules.


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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Ooberman]

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

Yes, i think we understand each other.

This can be an emotionally charged discussion as it is, and so asking each of us to do the other a favor and use terms we prefer can come across as the opposite of polite. It is, after all a true culture war and one of the battles revolves around how we use terms.

If we can get you to say "it" it would be a victory for us. It would start a process that you recognize: it could break the theists mental marker of god as a personal figure and to seem more impersonal.
Likewise, by saying "he" you make the term "god" seem personal.

I dont think god is personal, so i wouldnt use the term unless i was talking about a god character in a story, which is not the god i always talk about.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

Yes, i think we understand each other.

This can be an emotionally charged discussion as it is, and so asking each of us to do the other a favor and use terms we prefer can come across as the opposite of polite. It is, after all a true culture war and one of the battles revolves around how we use terms.

If we can get you to say "it" it would be a victory for us. It would start a process that you recognize: it could break the theists mental marker of god as a personal figure and to seem more impersonal.
Likewise, by saying "he" you make the term "god" seem personal.

I dont think god is personal, so i wouldnt use the term unless i was talking about a god character in a story, which is not the god i always talk about.

Not likely..I intend to continue using the capital "H" for "He" to refer to God. But I am certainly not offended by your request. In fact, I appreciate the civil tone of this post. And the fact that you are not too offended to reply to MY request in a civil manner.

You are right about the culture war, we have profound differences here between the opposite sides. But that does not preclude conversation and civility. I brought that up to contrast standards in making requests of the other side, in matters of speech.

Another example would be in the abortion debate, each calls the other side a name that indicates disrespect. "pro-life" becomes "anti-choice". and "pro-choice" becomes "pro-abortion" when usage of such terms leave no room for compromise, and ain't always true.

I have indicated earlier that I understand your expression of contempt for the Deity, and do not take that as a sign of contempt for the believer. And that you use the small "i" to indicate that contempt. I get it.

A good compromise maybe (for those who don't believe in a personal God). A Deist I know of who posts here, capitalizes the "I", and still uses the word "It" to refer to God. Deism tends not to look at God as a personal being, but they do believe in God. (for the record, I do consider God to be personal, even though I do not believe Jesus is God)

Somehow, that usage lessens the sting, somewhat.

Again, these are not demands, but requests and suggestions. I hope everyone understands that.

[Clownboat]

But I take from your answer that you do not care, and your contempt is noted.

Then we understand each other.

Next some Theist will ask that we write PBUH every time we mention Jesus, and some will insist that we should write "Jesus our Lord and Savior".

How about we speak as we wish to speak so that people understand our position, not try to placate everyone?

I agree, that would be going too far. And I would be against that, but that is different than what I was requesting.

Just wonderin' should we also try to placate the political left (or right for that matter) and bow to their dictated speech codes? I want to see how consistent you are in your objections to being dictated to.

A lot of folks are all too willing and quick to adopt the latest speech patterns and verbiage the Left insists on, and if not, if we do not like political correctness, we are called "haters", "racists", "homophobes" and worse. Throwing around those epithets at the drop of a hat cheapens them, especially when REAL hate, homophobia and racism actually does exist.

And have you heard the latest? "cultural appropriation" is now wrong. Can't do it. Even vocal Obama supporter Katy Perry was called a "racist" for dressing like a geisha. The Left eating their own. People are so damn quick and looking for reasons to be offended nowadays.

My request is mild in comparison to the speech codes of political correctness, and I am not trying to force anything on anybody.

I COULD accuse atheists of all kinds of nefarious motives for their atheism, but I do not, and would not. THAT would be uncivil, and mostly untrue.

I understand that many atheists have real and very rational problems accepting the goodness of God or even the reality of the Deity, (especially in light of so much suffering in the world) and do not judge them for that. Some of those problems we Theists wrestle with as well.

You sure we understand each other now? So if you want respect for your positions and opinions and expressions of opinion, please use some yourselves.

To the bold.
Homosexuals (for example as there are many relevant words that could be used here) are real and I can prove it to you. They are able to be hurt.

Your check for consistency is ridiculous IMO, unless:
- You can show your god concept is real and,
- you can show he suffers from the words of mortals.

Personally, I think speech should remain free unless it can be shown to cause harm. If you were arguing to capitalize the word "Christian", my take would be different.

Be well.

[Jax Agnesson]

I notice it seems to be the habit of many atheists and agnostics here on these forums to refer to God as "it".

And I think I understand the motivation, in that such references are most probably a desire to remain gender neutral, because a lot of folks are uncomfortable with calling God "He" or referring to Him in masculine terms. Fair enough.

But most of us Theists know that the masculine pronoun is due to the limitations of the English language, and some of us realize that such usage may be unneccesarily anthropromorphic to some who doubt the very existance of God.

But is the word "it" any better when referring to God?

EJ, I find myself in agreement with a lot of the things you post on this board, but this one puzzles me.
We (posters) don't usually encounter each other face to face; so opportunities to develop actual respect are limited. True the possibility to write disrespectfully is there, and this opportunity is seized deplorably often.
So there is a distinction to be made between real respect/disrespect, and 'netiquette'.

Many theologians consider the word "it" to be limiting as well, in reference to God. And many of them say that God is no THING. "It" implies a "thing".

What I am trying to say, for those non-believers who also want to treat the subject of theism with respect and in the interest of civility, would you consider humoring us Theists by using the pronouns "He" when referring to God, or "She" if referring to a Goddess?

My personal practice is to use 'God' and 'He' when referring to the Abrahamic deity, but I think my interest is more in the direction of clarity that to 'show respect'. and I don't think 'humouring' people is showing respect anyway. Condescension is the opposite of respect, I think.

The word "it" in reference to God sounds demeaning and disrespectful to us believers. Obviously if one just does not care, one may consider my request unreasonable. And no one is questioning your RIGHT to call God "it".

There is the difficulty that English uses gendered pronouns to refer to living things that have gender, and 'it' is therefore associated with objects, which by implication have a lower status than living things. But applying 'it' to God is showing disrespect to Him, not to you as an individual who believes in His existence.

But on the other hand, many who are quick to embrace the latest politically correct terminology from the Left will use whatever phrase is requested or dictated to them, newly fashionable acronyms such as "LGBT", or not LGBTQ" rights, instead of simply the old fashioned "gay rights" without a second thought.

As a liflong 'leftist', I have often railed against the sometimes rather silly obsession with political correctness as it is espoused by some (mostly middle-class) members of the liberal left. But the alternative is a deliberate political incorrectness, which I find aesthetically displeasing (read 'ugly'.)

I avoid offending people individually, and this is one way of showing genuine respect. I avoid generalising about whole groups of people, because such generalisations lead to stupid and sometimes dangerous ideas. I adopt terminologies which do not disrespect or insult members of disadvantaged social groups, because I wish to express solidarity with their struggle against disadvantage.
Where people are in a situation of oppression, I do what I can to oppose that oppression; or at the very least to avoid exacerbating it.
But note the following:
Christians are not an oppressed minority in Europe or America.

Insulting God is not the same as insulting an individual believer.

Believe me, we get it, if you were to call God "He" we would not think all of a sudden you converted or changed your fundamental world view. We would just consider it a sign of respect.

From me, you can take my choice of 'God' and 'He' as signs of an attempt at clarity only. Political or religious ideas are not entitled to respect; the people proposing the ideas might be. If I show respect to you, or to any other actual person, it will be seen in what I write, and how I write it; not in the minutiae of punctuation or pronoun choice.