Is God logically possible?

[atheist buddy]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15


That's like saying this:

Skippy is a cat
Cats are not dogs
Skippy is a dog

Logically impossible. Therefore God does not exist.

Question for debate: Is there any way to escape the fact that the Biblical attributes of God are logically contradictory and clearly violate the Law of Identity? Is there any way to come to any conclusion other than that God, as described in the Bible, doesn't exist?

[atheist buddy]

In a post similar to this one that was moved to random rablings, Overcomer wrote this:

There are different kinds of jealousy.

If I am jealous of someone because he has more money, a nicer car, a bigger house, etc., that's petty and self-centred. It is based on what I lack and what I want to have whether I need it or not. It stems from my love for myself.

But it is also possible to be jealous FOR someone rather than OF someone. To be jealous FOR someone is to want nothing but the best for them. It is unselfish and it is other-centred. It stems from one's love for that "other".

This is the kind of jealousy that God manifests.

My response:
This is all very poetic, but simply not supported by the facts as described in the Bible.

The Bible says very clearly that we must KILL anuybody who worships other Gods.

THAT's the kind of jealousy God displays.

If I hired a hitman to kill my boyfriend for talking to another girl, am I displaying the kind of benign jealousy whereby "I want nothing but the best for him"?

Your claim is preposterous. You cannot murder somebody out of "love" for them.

God's jealousy as clearly outlined in the Bible is the negative type which is anethema to love, and yet God is love, which is not jealous. So God is himself and the opposite of himself at the same time. Which makes him logically impossible. Therefore he doesn't exist.

[atheist buddy]

Actually, 1 Corinthians 13:4 says, “love does not envy,� while Deuteronomy 6:15 says, “the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God.�

Envy and jealousy are not precisely synonymous. Envy is the excessive desire for something that is not yours, while jealously is the desire to protect something that you have a genuine claim to.

One can be excessively jealous, and that would be bad. However, a healthy amount of jealousy is a good thing. If I see my wife talking with another man and I get jealous that would be a bad thing; if I see my wife deeply kissing another man and experience no jealousy that would be an equally bad thing. Envy is always bad.





If you want to get technical, First Corinthians uses a Greek word which can be translated “envy� our “jealousy� depending on the context, and probably means “envy� in the context of First Corinthians. Deuteronomy uses a Hebrew word which refers to a unique kind of jealousy that only applies to God and has no human equivalent. The LXX, a Greek translation of the Old Testament, notes the difference in the wording in Deuteronomy by using a Greek word which means “zealous.�

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NASB

I guess you know more about translating old documents than those commissioned to publish the Bible.


Also, where did you get your definition that "envy is the excessive desire for something that is not yours, while jealously is the desire to protect something that you have a genuine claim to"? Wherever it came from, it has nothing to do with reality.

Definition of Envy from google dictionary: a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

The first listed synonym of envy in google dictionary: Jealousy

Definition of Jealous from Google dictionary: feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.

The first listed synonym of jealous in google dictionary: Envious

Listed synonyms of Jealous from synonym.com: Covetous, envious.

Listed synonyms of Jealous from thesaurus.com: Envying

Listed synonym of Envious from thesaourus.com: Jealous


And here is the cherry on the cake. According to thesaurus.com, what is the antonym (opposite) of envy? Love



Do you concede, accept that the God of the Bible is logically impossible, and hereby no longer hold belief in his existence?

[bjs]

Actually, 1 Corinthians 13:4 says, “love does not envy,� while Deuteronomy 6:15 says, “the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God.�

Envy and jealousy are not precisely synonymous. Envy is the excessive desire for something that is not yours, while jealously is the desire to protect something that you have a genuine claim to.

One can be excessively jealous, and that would be bad. However, a healthy amount of jealousy is a good thing. If I see my wife talking with another man and I get jealous that would be a bad thing; if I see my wife deeply kissing another man and experience no jealousy that would be an equally bad thing. Envy is always bad.





If you want to get technical, First Corinthians uses a Greek word which can be translated “envy� our “jealousy� depending on the context, and probably means “envy� in the context of First Corinthians. Deuteronomy uses a Hebrew word which refers to a unique kind of jealousy that only applies to God and has no human equivalent. The LXX, a Greek translation of the Old Testament, notes the difference in the wording in Deuteronomy by using a Greek word which means “zealous.�

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NASB

I guess you know more about translating old documents than those commissioned to publish the Bible.


Also, where did you get your definition that "envy is the excessive desire for something that is not yours, while jealously is the desire to protect something that you have a genuine claim to"? Wherever it came from, it has nothing to do with reality.

Definition of Envy from google dictionary: a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

The first listed synonym of envy in google dictionary: Jealousy

Definition of Jealous from Google dictionary: feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.

The first listed synonym of jealous in google dictionary: Envious

Listed synonyms of Jealous from synonym.com: Covetous, envious.

Listed synonyms of Jealous from thesaurus.com: Envying

Listed synonym of Envious from thesaourus.com: Jealous


And here is the cherry on the cake. According to thesaurus.com, what is the antonym (opposite) of envy? Love


Do you concede, accept that the God of the Bible is logically impossible, and hereby no longer hold belief in his existence?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/envy
noun, plural envies.
1. A feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc.
2. An object of envious feeling:
Her intelligence made her the envy of her classmates.
3. Obsolete. ill will.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jealousy
noun, plural jealousies
1. Jealous resentment against a rival, a person enjoying success or advantage, etc., or against another's success or advantage itself.
2. Mental uneasiness from suspicion or fear of rivalry, unfaithfulness,etc., as in love or aims.
3. Vigilance in maintaining or guarding something.


While the first definition of jealousy is similar to envy, the second listed definition is about an uneasiness from a suspicion or fear of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc.

Note that in my last post I said, “Envy and jealousy are not precisely synonymous.� The words have similar meanings which allows them to be synonyms, but they do have different meanings. They are not precisely synonymous. (Similarly, the first synonym for "black" is "dark." The words have similar meanings, but they are not precisely synonymous.)

In context, the passage in Deuteronomy is clearly about a concern of unfaithfulness from God’s people. God does have a right to expect faithfulness from those who have said that they will be faithful to Him. This is different from envy which, according to the definition you provided, is a longing for someone else’s possessions, qualities, or luck.

Again, envy is a desire for what rightly belongs to someone else while jealousy, at least in the context of Deuteronomy, is about God’s desire to guard what rightly is due to Him.

The argument against God in this thread only works if we just look at the surface of things. The argument falls apart when we look closer and think critically.

[arian]

My humble suggestion would be for you to read and try to understand the God of the Bible first, then show He doesn't exist, because the god you are describing is NOT the Bible God.

The irony with this claim is two-fold.

First off, you are taking the position that Atheists Buddy has clearly NOT rejected the Biblical God. According to you what Atheist Buddy has rejected is a totally false and incorrect picture of the Biblical God.

Exactly, if he is going to prove something about Bible God, it would be nice if he knew a bit of whom he was referring to, wouldn't you agree? Mormons and Muslims have very similar complaints, most people who argue with Mormons or Muslims don't even know who Allah or Mormo is? Or even read the Koran or the Book of Mormo.

And secondly you are implying that this supposedly omniscient perfect God is a complete buffoon in having inspired the writing of religious dogma that can so easily be misunderstood by so many people. Not only non-believers, but even believes themselves apparently cannot understand these texts, for if they could there wouldn't exist so many disagreeing versions of Christianity.

Yes, Satan was on it as soon as the Words came out of Jesus mouth before it was put on parchment. It's called falsifying what is said, defamation of character. God is not the buffoon because of this, the people who understood what Jesus came for and were against it are. Now I wouldn't call them buffoons, but just simply evil. Actually very smart and calculating evil.

The Message was for all people, including those early scandalmongers. And who says that people cannot understand these texts? How do you know that the defamation of character of Jesus is not intentional? You make it sound like as if everyone was desperately grasping to understand the Bible and the Good News it has for mankind!? Be serious Divine, you know that is not true. Even the Bible warns us of this; "For many false Christ's shall come and will deceive many".

I mean look how many 'Schools of Divinity' there are out there producing Diviners like yourself? This proves there is a deliberate attack on the truth, an attack to deliberately pervert Gods message through carefully concocted deceit in the name of higher education, .. or what is it they call it, .. oh yea, 'enlightenment'. These 'Illuminated Ones' open church after mega-church with a perverted version of God, and His message. But it's what the people want, a watered down version where they can kill, steal, sin all they want, and at the first sign of tribulation their gods will 'beam them up' right out of here.

And it's working, where they spend millions on a famous Illuminati like Nicolas Cage to 'STAR' in it. He sure shines like the star he is in this last "Left Behind" movie!

Christendom itself has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Bible is totally incomprehensible and could only have been inspired by a single supernatural buffoon, or by many individual mortal superstitious buffoons. The latter conclusion is the most reasonable of course.

Your funny.
Christendom, this Divinely (divinations come only from demons) inspired religion did achieve to pervert the interpretation of the Bible where people cannot make heads or tails out of it. The Bible repeatedly says: "Jesus is the Son of God", but people read it: "Jesus is God".
Demons in the Bible seeing Jesus shouted out; "This is the Son of God!", .. yet people still read it as; "Jesus is God".
Jesus Himself said over and over again: "I am the Son of God!" but nooo... people prefer to read it as Jesus saying: "I am God!"
God Himself told the Prophets that He will send His Son into the world, but again nooo... people say: "God Himself came down to earth, was born of woman and died." They even sing songs about it since they say he resurrected himself;
"Gods not dead
he's alive
living in the inside
roaring like a lion, .."

even after they read Jesus warning that "Satan prowls around like a roaring lion devouring whomever he can" and yet they admit he is 'living in the inside', instead of praying, crying out to God to cast him out!?

But this is no longer 'hidden news', or some 'illuminated secret', the New Jesuit Pope himself announced who the god of this world is; "Lucifer", and his son, this new messiah they are waiting for, looking out for him through the 'LUCIFER' telescope they built here in Arizona, .. this new Jesus who supposedly comes from the fires of the sun, who by my guess will enter the Temple of abomination that has been built over there in Israel which has been waiting for him for some time now, take his seat in place of God, and fulfill that 'last trumpet sound'.

[arian]

Please show how Gods All Powerfulness is contradictory in the literal reading of the Bible??

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.�


Could God make Arian so proficient at debate that He Himself could not defeat him?

If I truly am proficient at debate defending the truth, then it is definitely not me arian, but the Spirit of God in me. If so, then why would God want to defeat His own message?

[Divine Insight]

God is love, love is not jealous because love is love, but God IS a jealous God, and He is NOT love when He casts the wicked into hell. Burning in hell for an eternity is not a show of love, but a sign of evil. God can and does evil things to evil people, but will show love and compassion to those that seek good.

But then God is not love. God is some mish-mash between love and evil.

Atheist Buddy is correct that there are problems with the Bible:

God is love - 1 John 4:8

If this is not true, then John 4:8 is less than honest and cannot be relied upon. God is not love, God is merely capable of love in some situations. So John would be wrong in saying that "God is Love".

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

The Holy Bible proclaims that love is not jealous.

The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15

But the Holy Bible also proclaims that God is jealous.

Therefore, for John to have said that God is love can only be a misunderstanding on John's part.

Therefore the Bible is at best inconsistent and contains falsehoods. We can't trust what is written in the Bible because clearly some authors have said things that cannot possibly be true within the larger context of the entire biblical picture.

So the God depicted verbatim in the Bible as a whole is impossible.

Of course, this single example given by Atheist Buddy is only one of many.

[ttruscott]

Please consider the Bible passages below:

God is love - 1 John 4:8
Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4
The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15
...

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

envy / jealous
- a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

synonyms: jealousy, covetousness;

- desire to have a quality, possession, or other desirable attribute belonging to (someone else).

Deuteronomy 6:14 "You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, 15 for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.…

jealous
- feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages.

- synonyms: envious, covetous, desirous;

- feeling or showing suspicion of someone's unfaithfulness in a relationship.

- synonyms: suspicious, distrustful, mistrustful, doubting,

- fiercely protective or vigilant of one's rights or possessions.

You are tangled in the English assuming Paul did not know that he, a well educated lawyer on Jewish law, was writing a contradiction to the Tanakh. I bet that if he knew he was contradicting Moses he would have not written it, eh? Good thing English set him straight I guess.

1 Corinthians 13:4 tells us love is not envious or jealous. Who does GDO Almighty have to envy? Who has anything that HE might want but does not have so HE might feel a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.?

Deuteronomy 6:14 tells us us HE is jealous and the context shows HE is fiercely protective or vigilant of HIS rights or possessions not giving the respect and worship due HIS true divinity to any other non-god and punishing those who would do so.

One find's what one seeks.

Peace, Ted

[arian]

It is obvious you haven't read, or maybe just didn't understand the God of the Bible.

Oh, I certainly have read the bible! And all the things I've mentioned here are absolutly in there! Maybe YOU should read it, before questioning me.
Or have you read it and just "interpreted"... oh, sorry, I mean "properly understood" everything that didn't make sense, so that it eventually made sense?
It's funny that I always hear that I "don't understand the text", when all I did was actually do nothing more than take the things the text directly says!

Yes, but someone could point out a text and still understand it very differently than what it actually says, wouldn't you agree?

Like for instance that Jesus is God. People will claim this till their dying day, yet there is not ONE place in the Bible that says Jesus is God, or that God has a mother! But they will whip themselves till they bleed, carry this huge stone or wood statue around till they drop, and believe that she is the mother of God and that by doing these things to themselves she will hear them and pray for them.

In the OT it goes on and on and on about the required sacrifice needed for sin (doing evil). It was doves, then for bigger sins it was lamb, and for deadly sins it was to be stoned to death. One way or another we have to 'pay' for our sins.

Ok... and this contradicts what I've said... how?
In that case, this god was NOT mercifull! If the people had to pay, then god didn't show mercy, but rather justice (although: Killing ANOTHER creature, to pay for YOUR sins... what kind of messed-up "justice" system is that?).
That's EXACTLY what I've said in the comment you've responded to (which I have to wonder now: Have you read it?)

What kind of justice system is that, .. to pay for your crimes, your sins?? Ah, .. I don't know, .. a just one?
I could go into greater detail to explain all this, but it would take too long. But tell me, what's better, or easier, to kill one of your sheep to show you are sorry, or be killed yourself, or maybe spend the rest of your life locked up in a cell?

God IS just, and pure, .. and Holy, and the payment for sin, .. ANY sin is death for both body and soul/spirit. We all die, and since the soul is eternal, hell is that eternal, everlasting death.

And who came up with that rule?
Oh, right! God himself! So yeah, I'm not impressed that he is pure by his own standard!
Measured by more sensible standards, he is actually quite the monster! Demanding blood-sacrifices and stuff... Holy cow, this is messed up!
So, you can call him "pure" all you want, it's your judgment here! But sorry, I don't call blood-hungry dictators pure... or just...
And even IF I did, as I've mentioned before, this perfectly demonstrates what I've pointed out before:
In that case, it wouldn't be mercifull.

lol, .. what would YOU do with someone who beat, then repeatedly raped your wife/daughter for days, then suffocated her by fulfilling some perverted sexual fantasy? What if you found out he did this to other women/girls too? I ask so I would understand your version of mercy since you think my God, the God of the Bible is so 'Holy Cow' unmerciful?

Seems like everyone on this earth thinks they could be more merciful than our Creator, yet I myself seen and been subjected to such injustice and cruelty throughout my life that would make your hair in the back of your head stand up, and you know what? Not one of those horrors I suffered was by the hand of God. Actually, men appeared many times to save me, then disappeared. Now I know God sent them. And that was just me, I know billions have suffered also. So please, tell me how mercy is really supposed to be outside of this unmerciful, and cruel Bible God that you make out to be the cause of all the suffering on this earth? I am very interested to hear?
But wait, maybe that wasn't cruelty at all, it's the way evolution is, the way things are. We are to forgive and forget. We don't need punishment for crimes right? There is no war, right? It's not like 70 million people were killed, many tortured to death, starved just in this last World War, right? It is what it is, who needs a God to tell us about justice, sacrifice and mercy, right?

Yes He IS 'unchanging', you will never convince Him that good is evil, and that evil is good.

Or that his ways are actually evil and not good...
Yeah, I know that kind of mind-set. And it's quite a bad thing to have, if you are unwilling to change your mind.

Wow, you seemed to have witnessed a lot of injustice by the hand of this Bible God. Like Jim Jones in Jonestown Guyana right? Yep, .. even atheists charge God of the Bible for all those deaths. You know, the One they swear don't exist.
How about the devil, could the devil have divined to Jim Jones to murder all those people?
Oh yea, .. if God doesn't exist, then the devil don't exist, right? So what the hell, might as well blame all the cruelty on God! "God did it because He makes rules and asks us to abide by them! Yuk, so mean this Bible god is even if we deny his existence." OK-then.

Please, .. change my mind, I challenge you?

But either way, this did NOT adress my objection EITHER!
Go back and read my comment again!
I NEVER said, that god wasn't just (I actually DO hold that position, but that wasn't part of my original poste) and I never said that god can't be unchanging either.
If you had read my poste you would have seen, that I object to the fact that he can be unchanging (as the bible claims) and still constantly be changing his mind, or that he can be perfeclty just AND perfectly mercifull at the same time! Because these things are in direct conflict!

Explain to me justice without mercy, or mercy without justice?

I doubt that people who have chosen to go to hell...

I doubt that any such people exist, so your point seems mute.

Got it, .. no God, no devil and no hell, and this is all God of the Bibles fault, right?

I mean... I doubt that your hell, exists in the first place, but even if it did, I doubt that anybody choses to go there.

No one (not that I know of anyways) plans to go to prison either, yet I know prisons exist, and that they are packed. And it's all because of what we call our 'justice system'. Ironically it's the same with atheistic communist countries too.

Please show how Gods All Powerfulness is contradictory in the literal reading of the Bible??

I never said it contradicted the bible.
AGAIN: READ what I've actually writen!
I wrote it's a contradiction IN ITSELF!
You can't be all-powerfull, because you automaticly run into contradiction!
If you were all-powerfull you could create something that is higher than your power (if you can't you are NOT all-powerfull, by definition), and and the same time, you would have to be able to be more powerfull than that thing you've created.
It's a logical contradiction. And I don't need any additional piece of the bible, to show that. It's the concept itself that doesn't make sense.

Being all powerful is not a contradiction in itself. God created man, as children of God (little gods) with no problem. But we are 'created'. Once God the Creator creates something, it automatically becomes the created. Think of eternity, or infinity, there cannot be other infinites or eternals, because then eternal and infinite is not eternal and infinite.
Everything God has 'created', cannot be God the Creator. It remains the created. The contradiction comes when we think there can be more than one God.

No amount of finite, or created could reach infinite, or the Creator. It's just simple logic. God is what He Is, or as He told Moses: "I Am Who I Am", anything else would be contradicting.

Btw: I would apprisiate it, if you respond again, that you actually adress the points I've made. Not the ones you've wanted me to make.
Thanks.

Absolutely. I tend to jump ahead to make my point, but I guess this could be taken wrong, even offensive. My fault and I apologize.

[arian]

God is love, love is not jealous because love is love, but God IS a jealous God, and He is NOT love when He casts the wicked into hell. Burning in hell for an eternity is not a show of love, but a sign of evil. God can and does evil things to evil people, but will show love and compassion to those that seek good.

But then God is not love. God is some mish-mash between love and evil.

So what you're saying is that a good judge could never throw someone on death row, if he did, he wouldn't be a 'good judge', right?

Atheist Buddy is correct that there are problems with the Bible:

God is love - 1 John 4:8

If this is not true, then John 4:8 is less than honest and cannot be relied upon. God is not love, God is merely capable of love in some situations. So John would be wrong in saying that "God is Love".

God is love, if Hitler or that North Korean president was God, we would not say God is love. We would say God is evil. So over all God IS love, and this is evident in His creation, in creating man and all the things we enjoy; God Is Love.

But those who will be cast in hell, .. well let's just say; they will see God as they made Him out to be in their lifetime. One thing that God is, is earnest.

Love is not jealous - 1 Corinthians 13:4

The Holy Bible proclaims that love is not jealous.

The Lord thy God is a jealous God - Deuteronomy 6:15

But the Holy Bible also proclaims that God is jealous.

Therefore, for John to have said that God is love can only be a misunderstanding on John's part.

'Love' is not jealous, just like the word hate is not love.

But God can be jealous at times in certain cases, He can be pure love to those who enjoy Gods love, He can be evil at times and bring great evil on the wicked, .. I mean heck, even I could do that and I am by far not God. Why is this so hard to understand? Where do you think we got our emotions from? Why would we the created have something God doesn't? Only God has much better self control then us, and this is what reveals His true character. Like I said, if he was Hitler or that N. Korean dictator, we would not call Him love. Their mentality wouldn't fit the description.

Therefore the Bible is at best inconsistent and contains falsehoods. We can't trust what is written in the Bible because clearly some authors have said things that cannot possibly be true within the larger context of the entire biblical picture.

So the God depicted verbatim in the Bible as a whole is impossible.

Yes, .. according to your mentality, that is correct. I have observed that good people will recognize evil people as evil. It is hard to convince a good person that rape, murder, lying, cheating, stealing is good. Once you do convince a good person that all these bad things are actually good, then you no longer have a good person.

And it is visa-versa. An evil person, or a bad person will always hate a good person. They can't stand their constant good deeds, their corrections, their admonishments, them always living by the law and encouraging others to do the same, .. yuck, .. gross.

Of course, this single example given by Atheist Buddy is only one of many.

Yes, according to you and your Atheist Buddy the entire Bible is full of gross and yucky goodie-two-shoe suggestions and teachings that contradict with your system of beliefs. Oh how you guys probably wish for the end of such annoyance; do this, .. don't do that. I really do understand, but I can promise you guys that it will soon end, and you will be free from all the burden of laws, and all this Biblical justice stuff.

You will be able to live throughout eternity without the burden of laws except for one: "Do As Thou Wilt!" and live forever in a place where you can 'Do It Your Way'. You just have to be patient for now, but it will come.

[Zzyzx]

.

God is love . . . .

This is known as an unverified claim (or platitude, conjecture, opinion, etc).

That many believe it to be true does not make it true and popular belief is no indication of truth.

Such statements have no merit in debate.