Lucifer is only referenced once in scripture. It isn't even a name in the original hebrew. Lucifer is Latin from the Latin translation into our modern canon.
The actual passage calls him 'Heylel ben Shachar' which is translated 'Lucifer, son of the morning'. How can he be a fallen angel if he is not 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'? I guess people don't know that Shachar was a Canaanite deity that was himself an 'ben El' according to the Canaanites.
Now Heylel (Lucifer) isn't even a name. It is a descriptive title. It means 'light bringer' or 'shining one' and is a common epitaph for a sungod. For example the same thing in Greek is Pheobus, ie 'bright'. Pheobus is a title of Apollo and Apollo means 'the destroyer' in Greek.
Now since Lucifer is from the Latin translation, it is interesting to note that the goddess Diana was Diana Luciferah as well in the Latin, ie the feminine form of Lucifer who was the twin sister of Apollo.
Most christian doctrine assumes that the serpent in the garden was Lucifer yet no where in scripture is this even speculated. Satan doesn't even appear in scripture until the time of Job, well after the flood.
Now if we assume that Shachar actually was an angel that had children then Lucifer at most is the son of a fallen angel who would have been born on earth, lived then died. How can he be anything more then just a ghost?
The passage of Isa 14 talks of Lucifer as a shameful ruler that destroys, then dies, is eaten by worms, descends into sheol where kings in sheol say 'Is this the MAN?'
So how is Lucifer a man?
How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #31Back to the actual subject of the thread.
If Lucifer is 'ben Shachar', ie 'the Morning'. Is this 'Morning' individual mentioned elsewhere?
Job 38:
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
This is the passage when Yah finally confronts and speaks to Job after the long debate with his friends. Now in my own studies of Job in the Hebrew and with my knowledge of the ancient paganism it became clear to me that Job's friends are clearly pagans. Oh, Eliphaz for example was Essau's eldest son was at least Hebrew but had a pagan Canaanite mother. His doctrine is pretty messed up. He clearly shows earlier in the debate he (Eliphaz) is a sungod worshiper. He even tells Job that his god travels across the sky (heavens) but can't see thru dark clouds. He is also spouting Babylonian sungod doctrine when it is compared with the Code of Hammurabi.
The point I am making is some of Yah's explainations are about the pagan gods the friends of Job follow.
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Now we know that Lucifer is 'son of the Morning' and here we have the morning stars that are clearly sons of God, 'ben Elihyim' or angels that are singing. Personally I believe the lead angels was the Morning and he had other 'star' in singing with him. Many people think that Satan once led the worship in heaven. I don't know where that concept comes from but it looks to me as if the 'Morning' is leading that music.
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
One thing in my studies I have found is that the sea is also another spiritual realm. That realm has boundaries imposed by Yah's law. Job 26:5 Dead things (shades of the dead) are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
Personally I think this verse is poorly translated Hebrew. The 'dead things' are ghosts, shades of the dead. They are not formed but a better translation is 'dance' so the verse is 'Ghosts dance under the waters and inhabit those waters'. Oh and the principality Ashtoreth/Diana is associated with the sea. Even in Revelation the Great Whore rises from the sea while she is over many waters, ie peoples. She rules over the spirits that inhabit the seas, the bitter waters.
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Again we see that Yah sets limits on that domain. Remember Legion didn't want to be cast into the abyss? Didn't Legion take over pigs then run them to the sea? They were returning to the sea instead of to hell. They were spirits already out of hell and Job states those spirits are GHOSTS.
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Ah, again we see the Morning is directly under Yah's command. He is called both Morning and Dayspring. It is actually Dayspring that is the same 'shachar' as Lucifer ben Shachar'. It is common in Hebrew to repeat a phrase to say the same thing in a different way to reinforce the meaning. Therefore Morning=Dayspring.
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Now this is a key verse. What is 'it' above? It should be 'he', ie the morning. Now this is again a poor translation. The morning takes holds of the 'skirts' of the earth. Now earth, Erats is a common epitaph of the goddess Asherah, ie Mother Earth to the Canaanites. Now in the paganism, the mother and father figures where considered Heavens and Earth. It all goes back to the covenant of the rainbow with Yah as heavens in covenant with mankind (earth). But the pagan reference is to a heavenly being taking an earthly consort to produce the gods. The Anunaki were the children of Anu (Heavens) and Ki (earth) in the Summerian.
So the wicked are shaken out of the 'skirts of the earth'. Who were these wicked individuals shaken out of the skirts of the 'goddess' Asherah? It was the twins Molech and Ashtoreth, Apollo and Artemis, the sun god and the moon goddess of witchcraft.
Now if you go back to the story of Balaam and the talking donkey, Balak has Balaam try to curse the children of Israel 3 times. Balak takes Balaam to 3 different high places of the Baalim (plural of Baal, ie Baals and Baalahs) to perform his sacrifices. The 3rd one was the 'Field of Zophim' on Mt Pisgah. Most people totally miss the significance. Pisgah is a reference to Asherah. Pisgah is a reference to passing within/thru the cleft of the rock. Asherah was the pagan rock (see Det 32) and the smooth stones (see Isa 57, Jer 2). The rock was a symbol of Asherah. Now a field in Hebrew is an idiom for the womb. It is where the seed is planted. Now Zophim means 'WATCHERS' which is a term used for the pre-flood fallen angels that took wives and fathered children. So here we have a mountain dedicated to Asherah as the 3rd sacrifice and the location on Mt Pisgah is the 'womb of the Watchers' where a fallen angel planted his seed.
Asherah is Canaanite name of mother earth, the mother of Molech (shameful king) and Ashtoreth (shameful star, queen of heaven/sky).
So here we have a reference to the Morning being a mighty angel under Yah's command that leads the singing as the foundations of the earth is layed. Yet that same Morning causes the wicked to be shaken from the skirts of the Earth.
It is this individual the Morning that led the worship in heaven, not Lucifer his son.
BTW the Syrians called him Hadad (the thunderer), the Greeks called him Zeuz. Don't forget the Jews call the cockatrice Ziz. And don't forget we have four angels bound at the Euphrates that get let back out during the tribulation? We also have four angelic beings about the throne of Yah. We have 4 rivers in Eden, 4 winds/spirits and 4 pillars of the earth. I wonder how many Angels were Yah's representatives on earth that guarded Eden? What happened to those angels when Eden was destroyed by the flood?
Now if you look at the Greek Mythologies, the Olympians helped imprison the Titans in Tartarus, the lowest hell during a previous age. 2 Pet 2 talks about the flood and the angels that sinned being bound in TARTARUS. It is the only use of Tartarus in the New Testament.
2 Pet 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Note how the angels sinning is tied to the flood. These would be the pre-flood angels that sinned by having offspring. By the Greek myths, that would put Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and Hera on the side of Yah helping to imprison the Titans, the pre-flood fallen angels, the Watchers of Enoch. BTW, Enoch tells this story in detail how the Watchers are chained and cast into prison after seening all of their offspring die.
Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Again Jude also references angels in prison until Judgement day, ie the tribulation period which both the abyss/(bottomless pit) and the angels in the Euphrates are all released.
Jude also goes on the reference Enoch then directly quote out of Enoch, book 1, chapter 1. In Enoch book 1, Yah commands that all the children of the Watchers are destroyed before their father's eye before they are imprisoned. Now here we have imprisoned angels let out to witness the destruction of the wicked. How many of those are their descendants?
Now because Enoch directly disagreed with Augustine's pet doctrines, he had it banned. He also tried to have the book of Jude excluded from the canon but failed.
People in Augustine's day were educated in the Greek philosophies so they rejected the notion that angels (being purely spiritual) could have children with women so the educated populous ridiculed the biblical story as nonsense. So Augustine pushed a doctrine to account for that, banned Enoch and proposed doctrine that accounted for those issues. His doctrine got established as standard church doctrine that has carried down to today.
Augustine presented the concept that Lucifer rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him. It is those purely spiritual beings that influence mankind.
Of course both Peter and Jude directly contradict that doctrine and both were very aware of the writings of Enoch.
If Lucifer is 'ben Shachar', ie 'the Morning'. Is this 'Morning' individual mentioned elsewhere?
Job 38:
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
This is the passage when Yah finally confronts and speaks to Job after the long debate with his friends. Now in my own studies of Job in the Hebrew and with my knowledge of the ancient paganism it became clear to me that Job's friends are clearly pagans. Oh, Eliphaz for example was Essau's eldest son was at least Hebrew but had a pagan Canaanite mother. His doctrine is pretty messed up. He clearly shows earlier in the debate he (Eliphaz) is a sungod worshiper. He even tells Job that his god travels across the sky (heavens) but can't see thru dark clouds. He is also spouting Babylonian sungod doctrine when it is compared with the Code of Hammurabi.
The point I am making is some of Yah's explainations are about the pagan gods the friends of Job follow.
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Now we know that Lucifer is 'son of the Morning' and here we have the morning stars that are clearly sons of God, 'ben Elihyim' or angels that are singing. Personally I believe the lead angels was the Morning and he had other 'star' in singing with him. Many people think that Satan once led the worship in heaven. I don't know where that concept comes from but it looks to me as if the 'Morning' is leading that music.
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
One thing in my studies I have found is that the sea is also another spiritual realm. That realm has boundaries imposed by Yah's law. Job 26:5 Dead things (shades of the dead) are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
Personally I think this verse is poorly translated Hebrew. The 'dead things' are ghosts, shades of the dead. They are not formed but a better translation is 'dance' so the verse is 'Ghosts dance under the waters and inhabit those waters'. Oh and the principality Ashtoreth/Diana is associated with the sea. Even in Revelation the Great Whore rises from the sea while she is over many waters, ie peoples. She rules over the spirits that inhabit the seas, the bitter waters.
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Again we see that Yah sets limits on that domain. Remember Legion didn't want to be cast into the abyss? Didn't Legion take over pigs then run them to the sea? They were returning to the sea instead of to hell. They were spirits already out of hell and Job states those spirits are GHOSTS.
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Ah, again we see the Morning is directly under Yah's command. He is called both Morning and Dayspring. It is actually Dayspring that is the same 'shachar' as Lucifer ben Shachar'. It is common in Hebrew to repeat a phrase to say the same thing in a different way to reinforce the meaning. Therefore Morning=Dayspring.
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Now this is a key verse. What is 'it' above? It should be 'he', ie the morning. Now this is again a poor translation. The morning takes holds of the 'skirts' of the earth. Now earth, Erats is a common epitaph of the goddess Asherah, ie Mother Earth to the Canaanites. Now in the paganism, the mother and father figures where considered Heavens and Earth. It all goes back to the covenant of the rainbow with Yah as heavens in covenant with mankind (earth). But the pagan reference is to a heavenly being taking an earthly consort to produce the gods. The Anunaki were the children of Anu (Heavens) and Ki (earth) in the Summerian.
So the wicked are shaken out of the 'skirts of the earth'. Who were these wicked individuals shaken out of the skirts of the 'goddess' Asherah? It was the twins Molech and Ashtoreth, Apollo and Artemis, the sun god and the moon goddess of witchcraft.
Now if you go back to the story of Balaam and the talking donkey, Balak has Balaam try to curse the children of Israel 3 times. Balak takes Balaam to 3 different high places of the Baalim (plural of Baal, ie Baals and Baalahs) to perform his sacrifices. The 3rd one was the 'Field of Zophim' on Mt Pisgah. Most people totally miss the significance. Pisgah is a reference to Asherah. Pisgah is a reference to passing within/thru the cleft of the rock. Asherah was the pagan rock (see Det 32) and the smooth stones (see Isa 57, Jer 2). The rock was a symbol of Asherah. Now a field in Hebrew is an idiom for the womb. It is where the seed is planted. Now Zophim means 'WATCHERS' which is a term used for the pre-flood fallen angels that took wives and fathered children. So here we have a mountain dedicated to Asherah as the 3rd sacrifice and the location on Mt Pisgah is the 'womb of the Watchers' where a fallen angel planted his seed.
Asherah is Canaanite name of mother earth, the mother of Molech (shameful king) and Ashtoreth (shameful star, queen of heaven/sky).
So here we have a reference to the Morning being a mighty angel under Yah's command that leads the singing as the foundations of the earth is layed. Yet that same Morning causes the wicked to be shaken from the skirts of the Earth.
It is this individual the Morning that led the worship in heaven, not Lucifer his son.
BTW the Syrians called him Hadad (the thunderer), the Greeks called him Zeuz. Don't forget the Jews call the cockatrice Ziz. And don't forget we have four angels bound at the Euphrates that get let back out during the tribulation? We also have four angelic beings about the throne of Yah. We have 4 rivers in Eden, 4 winds/spirits and 4 pillars of the earth. I wonder how many Angels were Yah's representatives on earth that guarded Eden? What happened to those angels when Eden was destroyed by the flood?
Now if you look at the Greek Mythologies, the Olympians helped imprison the Titans in Tartarus, the lowest hell during a previous age. 2 Pet 2 talks about the flood and the angels that sinned being bound in TARTARUS. It is the only use of Tartarus in the New Testament.
2 Pet 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartarus), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Note how the angels sinning is tied to the flood. These would be the pre-flood angels that sinned by having offspring. By the Greek myths, that would put Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and Hera on the side of Yah helping to imprison the Titans, the pre-flood fallen angels, the Watchers of Enoch. BTW, Enoch tells this story in detail how the Watchers are chained and cast into prison after seening all of their offspring die.
Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Again Jude also references angels in prison until Judgement day, ie the tribulation period which both the abyss/(bottomless pit) and the angels in the Euphrates are all released.
Jude also goes on the reference Enoch then directly quote out of Enoch, book 1, chapter 1. In Enoch book 1, Yah commands that all the children of the Watchers are destroyed before their father's eye before they are imprisoned. Now here we have imprisoned angels let out to witness the destruction of the wicked. How many of those are their descendants?
Now because Enoch directly disagreed with Augustine's pet doctrines, he had it banned. He also tried to have the book of Jude excluded from the canon but failed.
People in Augustine's day were educated in the Greek philosophies so they rejected the notion that angels (being purely spiritual) could have children with women so the educated populous ridiculed the biblical story as nonsense. So Augustine pushed a doctrine to account for that, banned Enoch and proposed doctrine that accounted for those issues. His doctrine got established as standard church doctrine that has carried down to today.
Augustine presented the concept that Lucifer rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him. It is those purely spiritual beings that influence mankind.
Of course both Peter and Jude directly contradict that doctrine and both were very aware of the writings of Enoch.
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onewithhim
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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #32Just how are the demons imprisoned? In a literal place? No, because they are said to be involved in the affairs of this world.Yahu wrote:It is a MAJOR assumption that is all referring to one individual that has been active against mankind since Eden while scripture is clear that the pre-flood angels that sinned (including the serpent) are imprisoned for their sins and aren't let out until Judgement.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Yahu]
The passage in Isaiah 14:12 does indeed refer to The King of Babylon.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002 ... IFER&p=par
However other passages do refer to the spirit creature identified as "satan" "the devil" (no personal name provided) that was once a favored angel but rebelled, tempted Eve, challenged Jehovah God in relation to Job and confronted Jesus himself shortly after his (Jesus') baptism. This one is also identified as the "prince of this world" the leader of the demons and Jehovah God's enemy.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
For example, the 'prince of the powers of the air' is NOT Satan if you understand the enemy realm. The realm of the air belongs to the anti-christ spirit, not Satan. That is a totally different principality.
"Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:11,12, NASB)
How can the demons be in a literal prison when they are controlling the world "in the heavenly places"?
No, they are in a figurative prison---a condition of spiritual darkness. They won't be literally imprisoned until Armageddon, when they will all go into the "abyss." (Revelation 20:1,2)
You speak of an "anti-christ spirit." Doesn't that spirit originate with Satan? I think so. He is "deceiving the whole world," manipulating everything to fight as best he can with Jehovah and His people. (Revelation 12:9)
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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #33Who are YOU brainwashed by? Are those all your ideas? I asked you for scriptures to back up your statements that Sheol is the "abode" of dead people, that Tartarus is a literal prison, and how you can say that the fallen angels (the demons) are literally locked up now. They are obviously very busy in the world! (Ephesians 6:11,12)Yahu wrote: [Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]
Sorry, but nobody but JW accept that ridiculous nonsense that Sheol is just the grave. Everyone else, even the Jews for thousands of years believe it is the abode of the spirits of the dead.
Paradise is the abode of the righteous dead in Sheol (pre-cross). Tartarus is the prison in the lowest depths of Sheol where all fallen angels are LOCKED UP until Judgment. Satan rules from Sheol. That is his domain.
Demons are ghosts. Principalities are Nephilim ghosts. Satan/Lucifer is a ghost that rules Sheol/Hades/hell.
You are brainwashed by your cult.
Satan rules from Sheol? Do you know how silly that sounds, when he is not in Sheol at all? In fact, you said that "the righteous dead" are in Sheol. Satan rules where the righteous dead are?
Please get your scenarios straight and in agreement.There aren't any dead people ghosts. Dead people "know nothing," there is "no activity in the grave [Sheol]." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The Nephilim are not conscious anywhere. They got taken out with the Flood millennia ago.
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onewithhim
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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #34What "evidence" about Sheol? JehovahsWitness showed some pretty good stuff on the fact that Sheol is the grave. Did you miss that? Anyone contradicting the plain fact of Sheol being the grave fails to understand poetic license that is used in the scriptures constantly. Kings "speaking" from Sheol....purely as much poetic license as is the rivers "clapping their hands" and the mountains "singing." (Psalm 98:8) Or the nation of Israel being referred to as "a barren woman." (Isaiah 54:1)Clownboat wrote:I'm curious, since you didn't attempt to combat his evidence about Sheol, have you changed your stance? Is his argument not sound? If it's not, I would be curious to know why you think so.JehovahsWitness wrote:Excellent, then may I respectfully suggest you stop introducing them!. If a point it totally irrelevant to the debate on hand, then its best not to make it, but if you do, be prepared to be challenged, that is how debating goes. As it stands, it was you and not I that introduced this side point by making a very clear but totally inaccurate statement and I simply challenged it with factual information and references.Yahu wrote:I have no desire for the thread to be derailed on nonsense side topics.
Again, should I post anything you do not want to address, feel free to simply ignore it and move along.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
"It is not in Sheol that can laud you; death cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness. The living, the living, he is the one that can laud you, just as I can this day." (Isaiah 38:18,19)
Yahu says that the righteous go to Sheol. So if they were actually alive, they COULD praise God. But it says there that the dead CANNOT praise God. It is the LIVING that can. Apparently Isaiah thinks that the people in Sheol are really DEAD.
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onewithhim
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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #35No it doesn't. I don't think anyone said that "Sheol" is referring to "small one person graves." It would be anywhere that people are buried, and any amount of people. There are thousands of mass graves throughout the earth. Those people are also in Sheol (or Hades in the Greek).ttruscott wrote:JehovahsWitness wrote: "Sheol was for a very long time only a magnified grave, into which all the dead, bad and good alike, prince and peasant, went." - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Actually this quote is from: An Old Testament Commentary for English Readers:
by Charles John Ellicott; Cassell, Petter, Galpin & Company, 1884 NOT Matthew Henry.
First this:The word translated grave, in exact parallelism with death is sheol or underworld in the early conception merely a vast sepulchral cave, closed as rock-bombs usually were by gates of stone or Iron. The derivation of the word is disputed but the primary meaning appears to have been hollowness.
...then further in the paragraph comes the sentence you have quoted:[wrongly attributed to Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary] which obviously refers to one huge cavern so this grave called sheol cannot be referring to the small, filled in, one person graves for the body.JehovahsWitness wrote: "Sheol was for a very long time only a magnified grave, into which all the dead, bad and good alike, prince and peasant, went.�
This paragraph defeats your interpretation...
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Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #36Who told you THAT? There is no reason to think that God considered Solomon an "unspiritual person," until Solomon started doing crazy things, and I doubt if he wrote any more scripture after that. How can you say that God wanted Ecclesiastes in the Bible to show us what an unspiritual person thinks?ttruscott wrote:GOD had this and almost all of ECCLESIASTES written as a "truth from the pov of the worldly minded unspiritual person, which is contrary to the truth of HIS reality. It is the truth of what the world thinks, not GOD, and I guess you folk are caught up in that.JehovahsWitness wrote: ECCLESIASTES 9:10
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm
English Standard Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
You know another reason why your argument doesn't hold water? What scripture do people use who are trying to prove that a dead person's spirit goes consciously back to God when they die? ECCLESIASTES 12:7. My point is, if Ecclesiastes is screwed up because its writer is "a worldly minded unspiritual person," then why do so many people that believe like you do quote Ecclesiastes 12:7?
(Never mind that it doesn't prove an immortal soul anyway.)
Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #37Where have I ever said demons are in prison?onewithhim wrote: Just how are the demons imprisoned? In a literal place? No, because they are said to be involved in the affairs of this world.
"Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Ephesians 6:11,12, NASB)
How can the demons be in a literal prison when they are controlling the world "in the heavenly places"?
No, they are in a figurative prison---a condition of spiritual darkness. They won't be literally imprisoned until Armageddon, when they will all go into the "abyss." (Revelation 20:1,2)
You speak of an "anti-christ spirit." Doesn't that spirit originate with Satan? I think so. He is "deceiving the whole world," manipulating everything to fight as best he can with Jehovah and His people. (Revelation 12:9)
I never claimed that demons, 'evil spirits' are in prison! I claim ALL fallen angels are in prison. They are NOT demons. Demons are spirits of dead evil individual that serve the enemy that are let out of Sheol/hell. The most powerful of those evil spirits are the spirits of the dead Nephilim.
Lucifer is a half man/half angel hybrid born on the earth post-flood who was worshiped as a god because of his angelic form at Babel. The anti-christ spirit is the spirit of the pagan god Baal who was the son of Ashtoreth. Baal was 1/4 nephilim. Ashtoreth/Diana is the twin sister of Lucifer, ie Diana Luciferah. She is also 1/2 hybrid.
It is the anti-christ spirit that controls the spirits in 'heavenly places' as being one of the 3 spiritual realms.
When the four angels that were Yah's representatives on earth were locked up at the Euphrates, four others took over their positions of authority. Yah gave dominion of the earth to mankind, not to angels. Because of their births on earth, they could take dominion.
Now of those four angels, the males each ruled over a different spiritual realm; the air (2nd heaven, heavenly places), the sea and Hades/Sheol.
The anti-christ spirit took over the spirits in the realm of air. The Jezebel spirit, actually Ashtoreth her goddess, took over the realm of sea and Lucifer/Satan took over Hades/Sheol. The fourth lesser principality was who the Canaanites called Asherah, their human mother who rules over the purely human evil spirits. Demons are the descendants of angels that crossed with mankind and animals. Once dead, those beings become evil spirits as stated in Enoch.
Now Here is a quote from 1 Enoch 15. Jude quotes right out of 1 Enoch 1 right after he talked about the angels that sinned. Enoch was a commonly known book in Synagogues. It was Augustine that kept it out of the Western Canon. It is a part of other Canons like the Ethopian bible.
Enoch Book 1, Chapter 15
And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: ‘Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.
And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you:
Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons?
And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish.
Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.
But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world.
And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.
And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.
Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.
[As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.]
And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences.
And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
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The book of Enoch clearly shows that the offspring of the Watchers are cursed by Yah to be evil spirits. They are NOT angels but the offspring of angels.
Obviously you haven't read the writings of Enoch. The Jews understood the source of evil spirits and they were NOT fallen angels.
Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #38I said the righteous dead where in Paradise, a part of Sheol pre-cross. Yeshua set all the righteous captives free and took them to Heaven once He fulfilled His death on the cross. The righteous dead are gone from Sheol. They are in Heaven now. They could NOT go to Heaven until their sins were atoned by the blood of Yeshua.onewithhim wrote: Satan rules from Sheol? Do you know how silly that sounds, when he is not in Sheol at all? In fact, you said that "the righteous dead" are in Sheol. Satan rules where the righteous dead are?
That is a very simple concept.
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
See the 3rd definition of Paradise below from the Strongs # used here.
3857 πα�αδεισος paradeisos par-ad’-i-sos
of Oriental origin cf סדרפ, 06508; TDNT-5:765,777; {See TDNT 591} n m
AV-paradise 3; 3
...
3) the part of Hades/Sheol which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection:
Paradise gets emptied by Yeshua after His 3 day state in Sheol/Hades. Now only spirits of the unsaved descent into hell/sheol/hades. It is now pretty exclusively the domain of the wicked. The first resurrection was at the time of Yeshua's 3 days in Sheol. The old testament saints are now in Yah's Heaven.
My scenarios have been straight and in agreement. Obviously you had trouble understanding.
Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #39Not according to Enoch.onewithhim wrote: There aren't any dead people ghosts. Dead people "know nothing," there is "no activity in the grave [Sheol]." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The Nephilim are not conscious anywhere. They got taken out with the Flood millennia ago.
Re: How can Lucifer be a fallen angel?
Post #40I must just assume that the reason JW hold to soul sleep and hell/sheol/hades/tartarus is just the grave is a position taken to help in recruitment of new members.
Yah forbid if anyone discredits their recruitment schemes.
I don't see any other reason for promoting such obvious error.
Yah forbid if anyone discredits their recruitment schemes.
I don't see any other reason for promoting such obvious error.
